Arms Legion Discussion

[mysticx]

These rage changes feel like they were made with non-FR builds in mind (FR always felt rage-starved or balanced, non-FR felt rage-flooded) which is why I hope they really come out on top. Cause if FR is still king by even 1%, Arms is going to feel clunky as hell -- even if the numbers are better over live.

I think the current changes are made with the intention of dethroning the Dauntless/Avatar/FR/Deadly calm/Anger management setup as the only viable one for the entire Arms spec (By a 30% or so margin), and they're doing that by cutting off the rage income so you can't use FR as often anymore (Anger management got a nerf too, so fewer "Feast"-moments with battle cry), i hope it works out well, since the whole idea of having talents becomes a bit of a joke when there's exactly one arrangement that's remotely viable...

[Uriel]

Why so much hate for FR? Good usage makes Arms fun. It enables rage Management introducing another aspect. Without it it is just pressing Buttons.

Also FR is superior to HS cause you can use it away from the boss

[Uthan]

Should make FR baseline and then add a talent that replaces it with something else for those so inclined imo, either way the outlook for ToS seems kind of bleak atm.

[Anbokr]

I think the current changes are made with the intention of dethroning the Dauntless/Avatar/FR/Deadly calm/Anger management setup as the only viable one for the entire Arms spec (By a 30% or so margin), and they're doing that by cutting off the rage income so you can't use FR as often anymore (Anger management got a nerf too, so fewer "Feast"-moments with battle cry), i hope it works out well, since the whole idea of having talents becomes a bit of a joke when there's exactly one arrangement that's remotely viable...

Oh yeah, I get their intention -- my issue is that if the FR build remains the best raid spec even by 1%... we're just all going to be stuck playing a now rage-starved and clunky spec. The problem was that the FR spec generally felt balanced w/ deadly calm while the non-FR spec felt rage-flooded with deadly calm.

I think the route they should have taken is to redesign that talent, not make the FR build clunky as all hell.

[Deleted]

Oh yeah, I get their intention -- my issue is that if the FR build remains the best raid spec even by 1%... we're just all going to be stuck playing a now rage-starved and clunky spec. The problem was that the FR spec generally felt balanced w/ deadly calm while the non-FR spec felt rage-flooded with deadly calm.

I think the route they should have taken is to redesign that talent, not make the FR build clunky as all hell.

The thing is, anything else than a fr build with rage starve issues would end up with a build where you sit at rage cap with everything on cd, wich imo is a lot worse because no rng or "skill" can help you counter that.

[Hoeth]

Why so much hate for FR? Good usage makes Arms fun. It enables rage Management introducing another aspect. Without it it is just pressing Buttons.

Also FR is superior to HS cause you can use it away from the boss

Fun is entirely subjective, and if you take this and the WOW forums with any seriousness, FR is very polarizing.

[mysticx]

Oh yeah, I get their intention -- my issue is that if the FR build remains the best raid spec even by 1%... we're just all going to be stuck playing a now rage-starved and clunky spec. The problem was that the FR spec generally felt balanced w/ deadly calm while the non-FR spec felt rage-flooded with deadly calm.

I think the route they should have taken is to redesign that talent, not make the FR build clunky as all hell.

I think that at a minor (Say, single digit) DPS-margin only mythic raiders would bother with FR as it's going to be, but it's currently at 30% or so (I read that somewhere on this forum recently), which removes all illusion of choice for anybody who has even the slightest idea what they're doing, and your assumption leans on "Deadly calm" again, maybe part of the idea is for people to consider taking Trauma or even Titanic might!

It's easy to forget with the way Arms-spec is now, but each row has 3 talents in it, you know. :3

I do however have my doubts whether hitting FR in the rage-cost is the way to go, that just makes it annoying to play, reducing its bonus per stack or even letting it stack to just 2 would be just as effective without messing up the flow for people who actually like FR... o_O

[Valkaneer]

Should make FR baseline and then add a talent that replaces it with something else for those so inclined imo, either way the outlook for ToS seems kind of bleak atm.

Then you force every that hates it to play it, so no.

[Atherions]

Either make FR baseline or add a talent row with three different types of off the GCD ragedumps. Bring back some variation of Heroic strike, FR and a third option. But i guess blizz would much rather just nerf all rage gains and slow down the spec

[Onslaught49]

been awhile since iv'e been on this board but would absolutely love a arms spec that doesnt revolve around the FR talent, maybe il be able to finally return to arms and shelf my demon hunter ;_;

[Bigbazz]

FR doesn't need to be baseline, they can just make the other talents competitive with it. It's fairly simple to do they have just chosen not to, example is they could have just made Mortal Combo also increase the damage on MS in some fashion, either static or as an increasing stacking buff with a duration. Or maybe make the Mortal Combo versions of MS not consume Shattered Defense. Whatever it takes if they wanted to make non-FR builds competitive before they could have, they just chose not to. FR is way too polarizing to have it as a baseline talent (though I like it, personally) and there is no need for it.

Regarding changes, big nerf to damage proc items like Old War, Fishbrul, Karazhan Ring and most obviously Draught of Souls. Nerf to Dauntless means less tactition procs so more RNG, while 20s CS cooldown provides some small RNG protections it should have been this way from the start, would have saved a lot of of headaches from horrible RNG. AM nerf is also a considerable single target dps nerf, while we see AOE buffs across the board it looks like Arms could be an AOE monster next patch with the tier.

I'm not that invested as I spend more time talking and reading about WoW than playing it these last few months, it's early days on these changes but I hope they don't mess this up. Big quality of life change they could do is make Executioners Precision a personal buff, rather than a debuff.. Which would also fix it from being overpowered with Sweeping Strikes, as I'm told it currently debuffs all targets separately giving you 3 uses from one application.

[Wazooty]

Back when overpower builds were a thing, I recall the procs being prioritized above MS. Does it costing no rage put it behind MS (as in, no tactician procs?)

[Tatsujin]

FR needs to be baseline. Right now, the spec on PTR feels very smooth without FR and it feels less smooth with FR and leg gloves, and unsmooth without gloves with FR. Here is the question .... Are you doing more damage without FR? If not, how do you do more damage without FR? We have to literally be doing more damage because the spec itself, currently on live, is just a monster in ST with good (average) RNG. Everything I see is they increased rage cost on most things and nerfed Dauntless because they want us to move away from the singular build that Warriors are forced to use on live. However, Arms has issues - AoE and RNG.

The PTR spec doesn't seem to warrant that we're getting a buff, which the spec needs, but we're being adjusted to be on the average-joe's skill level which effectively reduces our DPS without using FR (theory). For those who're skilled with FR, go on the PTR and test it out with and without FR, with dauntless and without it, with gloves and without them (if you have them).

RNG is a damn headache in Arms, no argument on that. FR is not a headache, it's just a rage dump, just like how you did in other expansions, FR is the same thing. The RNG of Tactician is the real issue.

[Uriel]

I agree with this guy ^

[Valkaneer]

FR doesn't need to be baseline, they can just make the other talents competitive with it. It's fairly simple to do they have just chosen not to, example is they could have just made Mortal Combo also increase the damage on MS in some fashion, either static or as an increasing stacking buff with a duration. Or maybe make the Mortal Combo versions of MS not consume Shattered Defense. Whatever it takes if they wanted to make non-FR builds competitive before they could have, they just chose not to. FR is way too polarizing to have it as a baseline talent (though I like it, personally) and there is no need for it.

Regarding changes, big nerf to damage proc items like Old War, Fishbrul, Karazhan Ring and most obviously Draught of Souls. Nerf to Dauntless means less tactition procs so more RNG, while 20s CS cooldown provides some small RNG protections it should have been this way from the start, would have saved a lot of of headaches from horrible RNG. AM nerf is also a considerable single target dps nerf, while we see AOE buffs across the board it looks like Arms could be an AOE monster next patch with the tier.

I'm not that invested as I spend more time talking and reading about WoW than playing it these last few months, it's early days on these changes but I hope they don't mess this up. Big quality of life change they could do is make Executioners Precision a personal buff, rather than a debuff.. Which would also fix it from being overpowered with Sweeping Strikes, as I'm told it currently debuffs all targets separately giving you 3 uses from one application.

A lot of truth here, and I agree with the notion of not turning warrior into a spec that many of us hate. I should stay a talent, as that gives you the option to play it or not. Ppl just want FR to be baseline so they can become super OP once again which is far to greedy and IMO selfish. You should be able to chose AoE or ST, just like how most every other class has to change talents based on the boss. Arms has historically been the ST monster, and IMO it should always lean that way. It's about time that they balanced these talents, though I'm not sure I agree with they way they are doing it.

I agree it would have been much easier though to just let MC not consume SD on till the second MS hit so long as it was in the window the SD buff is active.

[Ickz]

Do people actually like the playstyle of FR? I hate how spammable off-gcd abilities feel in a rotation. I wish they'd just remove it altogether.

edit: Oddly enough, I didn't mind heroic strike when it was off-gcd. I guess it just has something to do with FR not being a straight rage dump and instead this clunky off-gcd ability you have to pay attention do and mash alongside every other skill. Hate the feeling of it.

[Bigbazz]

Do people actually like the playstyle of FR? I hate how spammable off-gcd abilities feel in a rotation. I wish they'd just remove it altogether.

edit: Oddly enough, I didn't mind heroic strike when it was off-gcd. I guess it just has something to do with FR not being a straight rage dump and instead this clunky off-gcd ability you have to pay attention do and mash alongside every other skill. Hate the feeling of it.

I hated the idea of FR before I played it, when I got used to it I really appreciated the extra tactical play. It's one of the aspects I enjoy the most now. I understand it's not for everyone, but I'm glad it exists. I really liked HC Strike off-gcd play, I really felt the lack of it and FR has filled that hole in a more tactical way.

[Conniption]

Do people actually like the playstyle of FR? I hate how spammable off-gcd abilities feel in a rotation. I wish they'd just remove it altogether.

edit: Oddly enough, I didn't mind heroic strike when it was off-gcd. I guess it just has something to do with FR not being a straight rage dump and instead this clunky off-gcd ability you have to pay attention do and mash alongside every other skill. Hate the feeling of it.

I love FR and as a Vanilla guy that's played every exp this version of Arms is up there as one of my favorites.

[Babaha]

I, personally, love FR play style, been playing warrior since Vanilla and to me this version of arms is enjoyable to play. I do agree though that it will be healthier for a spec to have some viable alternative to Focused Rage build since there are so many people who hating on it.

[Bigbazz]

I just fired up the PTR for testing sake, the only specs that do any dps have FR in them. You can run overpower if you want, you can run Ravager or Opportunity Strikes if it pleases you, but unless you're running FR with Deadly Calm your dps is gonna be shit. I tried it, non FR + DC builds were easily 200k+ dps behind just on a dummy because you have nowhere near as much burst synergy, you're over capped on GCDs and you cant effectively turn rage into damage.

I personally don't mind, I like FR. But yeah, people getting fantasies that suddenly FR is not the best (and i've heard it from a few guys tonight, as I actually played WoW tonight, what is this!), those fantasies are going to remain fantasies unless something big happens. Of course yes you have FR being less rage efficient and dauntless is nerfed, but MS/Exe/Slam/CS are all buffed in damage so the spec is just more shitty to play with more RNG while doing similar (or more) damage to live.

My experience with some limited testing on PTR.