UK PM Theresa May to seek snap election.

[caervek]

They need to drop the communist image and that will evaporate with Corbyn but the party can not survive as Tory Lite anymore.

Here's the thing, Labour have never been "Tory lite", that's just something the far left voters say because they disliked the party becoming left of centre. They are still a left wing party, a left wing party is not a lite version of a right wing party. In the modern world you cannot win a UK election by being far left or far right as you will never get enough voters to defeat a centre left or right party.

Losing the party's far left stance with Corbyn is a start on the road to electability, however convincing the far left voters that left of centre is not the right wing is an almost bigger problem.

[smokii]

fucking election time again. yay.

the tories do not deserve to win and fuck anybody that votes for them.

i have no idea who should actually win as it'll be a cluster fuck either way, but fuck the tories. they only decided to give us an election (after teresa may was adamant we wouldn't have one) after the tories showed a 20% lead in the polls. (polls that have proven massively inaccurate since social media became a thing)


austerity - tories.
junior doctors strikes - tories.
dodgy fucking tax haven brexit dealing - tories.
zero hours contracts - tories.
reduction in living standards - tories.

oh and also, no forgetting, there are still tory MP's under investigation for election expenses fraud. who are still standing as MP's in this election.

i have no idea why anybody would want to vote for them, other than because they're deluded and easily swayed by mainstream media. (which is now largely owned by rupert murdoch)

seriously. fuck the tories. under them:
good luck retiring before 70.
good luck buying a house.
good luck affording children.
you'll need it.

[Kronik85]

Here's the thing, Labour have never been "Tory lite", that's just something the far left voters say because they disliked the party becoming left of centre. They are still a left wing party, a left wing party is not a lite version of a right wing party. In the modern world you cannot win a UK election by being far left or far right as you will never get enough voters to defeat a centre left or right party.

Losing the party's far left stance with Corbyn is a start on the road to electability, however convincing the far left voters that left of centre is not the right wing is an almost bigger problem.

You seem to think Socialism is far left. It's not. Name me some genuinely left wing policies that came from New Labour. They were not left of centre, it was Thatcherism under a different brand.

[alexw]

fucking election time again. yay.

the tories do not deserve to win and fuck anybody that votes for them.

i have no idea who should actually win as it'll be a cluster fuck either way, but fuck the tories. they only decided to give us an election (after teresa may was adamant we wouldn't have one) after the tories showed a 20% lead in the polls. (polls that have proven massively inaccurate since social media became a thing)


austerity - tories.
junior doctors strikes - tories.
dodgy fucking tax haven brexit dealing - tories.
zero hours contracts - tories.
reduction in living standards - tories.

oh and also, no forgetting, there are still tory MP's under investigation for election expenses fraud. who are still standing as MP's in this election.

i have no idea why anybody would want to vote for them, other than because they're deluded and easily swayed by mainstream media. (which is now largely owned by rupert murdoch)

seriously. fuck the tories. under them:
good luck retiring before 70.
good luck buying a house.
good luck affording children.
you'll need it.

The issue is that right wing parties such as the tories cater to the boomers who are on the whole an utterly selfish and narcissistic generation. Thus societal obligations to those that come after such as those you mention get thrown in the dumpster. This is of course a great way to ruin a country. Destroying the prospects of its most dynamic and productive to enable retired boomers to pad their retirements in ways they've never earned.

[caervek]

They are targeting people that are earning over £70k a year. If you think that is average, then that reflects the circles that you operate in more than reality.

He has more than one policy and a lot of them target the middle class and above average earners. I.E adding VAT to private school bills, he seems to think that private schools are all full or rich kids who holiday in the Caribbean and ride horses after school, in reality most students come from middle class families who made sacrifices to send them their. For every Osborne/Cameron type student in Private school there is also a child from a working class family who had to choose which child to send there and what essentials do do without to fund it.

Like somebody else said, his out of touch policies plan to rob from the average and above average earners to give to the poor, there aren't enough poor voters to get elected on that stance.

You seem to think Socialism is far left. It's not.

I never said that, but the issue is that while New Labour were centre left they were still left, hence the NHS funding, benefits, etc. And Corbyn is heavily left of centre left, AKA far left. This is a problem because most centralist voters would rather have a centre right party (like the Tories) or a centre left part (like New Labour) than a far left leaning party (like current labour) or a far right leaning party (Like UKIP).

Name me some genuinely left wing policies that came from New Labour. They were not left of centre, it was Thatcherism under a different brand.

Extra funding for the NHS, increasing payments for the sick/disabled, privatising non-essential services and using the money for social projects, etc.

Comparing a centre left party to Thatcherism just because they are not left leaning enough for you doesn't aid you point it damages it, it's no different than saying Cameron was as bad as Hitler for replacing DLA with PIP.

Hell the current Tories are';t even as bad as Thatcherism despite the papers constantly trying to compare May with her because they are both female >.> (Cameron was a Thatcherite, May isn't, she's from the wing of the party that kicked Thatcher out).

No one thinks they will win this one either. Being Tory Lite is not the answer though to the problems the country faces.

This country hasn't elected a far left party in over four decades and it's unlikely it ever will again (as it's not just Labour vs Tories anymore), this is the reason Labour had to move to centre left under Smith and then got elected under Blair. They "New Labour" campaign was essentially "we've ditched our parties far left policies, we won't bankrupt the country again like in the 70's, please give us a chance).

[Triks]

Yeah, like I said he's not mediagenic. He does well at rallies where he can build on his argument but he's a little too academic and thoughtful, I guess, for soundbites. He's also seems to favour a communal approach rather than a top-down approach which works terribly when half your party (the blairites) actively undermine you at every attempt.

He is a slug.

[Huehuecoyotl]

I never said that, but the issue is that while New Labour were centre left they were still left, hence the NHS funding, benefits, etc. And Corbyn is heavily left of centre left, AKA far left.

You can keep repeating this lie as much as you like, it doesn't make it true. Corbyn is in no way "far left". The only reason he may look that way is that Labour went so far to the right under Blair that even Thatcher was happy with them. He is an old-fashioned left of centre social democrat.

He wants the functions of the country that should be owned by the country, to actually be owned by the country again. He wants companies and individuals to pay their fair share of tax, rather than being allowed to move funds out of the country to avoid it. He wants to address the issues that the rampant inequality of recent years (that New Labour did nothing to reverse) have caused.

None of this is "far left". It is simply wanting a fairer, more reasonable country with everyone working together. Rather than the current situation where the Tories make it easier and easier for those that have to take advantage of those that have not. And in the long run that is actually a better plan for the health of the entire country, because letting things carry on as they are is to ferment more and more discord.

[Triks]

You can keep repeating this lie as much as you like, it doesn't make it true. Corbyn is in no way "far left". The only reason he may look that way is that Labour went so far to the right under Blair that even Thatcher was happy with them. He is an old-fashioned left of centre social democrat.

He wants the functions of the country that should be owned by the country, to actually be owned by the country again. He wants companies and individuals to pay their fair share of tax, rather than being allowed to move funds out of the country to avoid it. He wants to address the issues that the rampant inequality of recent years (that New Labour did nothing to reverse) have caused.

None of this is "far left". It is simply wanting a fairer, more reasonable country with everyone working together. Rather than the current situation where the Tories make it easier and easier for those that have to take advantage of those that have not. And in the long run that is actually a better plan for the health of the entire country, because letting things carry on as they are is to ferment more and more discord.

I am honestly surprised you can have a party like the Tories. They are literally the party of the 1% and I hate myself for using that phrase.

[Kronik85]

I never said that, but the issue is that while New Labour were centre left they were still left, hence the NHS funding, benefits, etc. And Corbyn is heavily left of centre left, AKA far left. This is a problem because most centralist voters would rather have a centre right party (like the Tories) or a centre left part (like New Labour) than a far left leaning party (like current labour) or a far right leaning party (Like UKIP).

Extra funding for the NHS, increasing payments for the sick/disabled, privatising non-essential services and using the money for social projects, etc.

They doubled the NHS budget but alongside that they helped privatise it and achieved very little beyond reducing waiting times, essentially all they did was make the NHS cost more money for the same level of performance. The problems the NHS now suffers from started with New Labour. Benefits didn't rise with New Labour either, what we got were child and tax credits aimed at encouraging the very worst off into work. The irony being that if you earn minimum wage (which they also introduced) you're better off being unemployed because the government picks up more slack and pays your rent for you. New Labour actually clamped down harder on benefits mooches because whilst failure to comply with any of the 4 conditions of welfare-to-work would outright remove you from the system whilst the previous Conservative government reduced your benefits to 40%.

For those small policies we deregulated banking and industry, introduced PFI's, created a 24hr gambling culture and continued the pressure to cripple the Unions. It was Thatcherism via the back door.

Comparing a centre left party to Thatcherism just because they are not left leaning enough for you doesn't aid you point it damages it, it's no different than saying Cameron was as bad as Hitler for replacing DLA with PIP.

Their was nothing new in New Labour's economic policies, it was a continuation of Thatcherism with some socialist window dressing. The government stopped the "fuck the poor!" rhetoric and started silently fucking them over instead. That's what I admire about Kalis and the Conservatives, at least they know and acknowledge that they are bastards and they are fine with it, the Blairites on the other hand just can't face what they are.

This country hasn't elected a far left party in over four decades and it's unlikely it ever will again (as it's not just Labour vs Tories anymore), this is the reason Labour had to move to centre left under Smith and then got elected under Blair. They "New Labour" campaign was essentially "we've ditched our parties far left policies, we won't bankrupt the country again like in the 70's, please give us a chance).

Yet they bankrupted the country anyway, even whilst ditching the old policies. This isn't 1997 anymore, we've seen New Labour, what it achieved and the mess it made. The country needs a party which represents the working class and because of this failure to acknowledge it we get Brexit and UKIP. Want a British Trump populist in power? Keep ignoring them at your peril.

What are Labour even offering atm that's far left? A tax on 5% of earners and VAT on 7% of our school children? Yeah that's really squeezing the middle.

[Shadowmelded]

Also known as the Blairites would rather use policies and tactics that gave Labour their two largest wins in the commons in their history plus their 4th largest win.

Who would have thought they would want to pursue a winning tactic?

Blair actually left the party almost 3 million votes worse off than he inherited. In 1997 the Tories were still recovering from Major, all that was necessary was to show up basically, and the 97 New Labour manifesto was far more left wing than Blair actually governed as.

that's the thing with FPTP voting - Losing a thousand voters in safe seats to gain 10 in a swing is usually a good deal.

Sure, but the problem is, there are now only a handful of safe seats left for labour precisely because of their turn to the right. Like I said above, Blair lost almost 3 million voters that never came back, just stopped voting entirely. It also has a knock-on effect by disenfranchising the very people you need to gin up enthusiasm, the activists that go knocking on doors in the pouring rain, that turn out to events and town halls.

Actually they would rather chase centre-left and centre voters than try and mobilize the far left, which is a perfectly valid idea when you're about to be decimated by a centre-right party and no amount of far-left voters can help you.

Yeah, that must be why so many of them go through the lobbies with the Tories, they're trying to be centre-left

[caervek]

You can keep repeating this lie as much as you like, it doesn't make it true. Corbyn is in no way "far left".

He is to the left, of "left of centre", that's as far left as you can get without hitting the British Communist Party (yeah they're still going).

The only reason he may look that way is that Labour went so far to the right under Blair

They moved to the right and landed in centre left, they didn't actually go into the right >.> (also they switched from far left to left of centre under Kinnock, it was just maintained under Smith then Blair).

the Conservatives, at least they know and acknowledge that they are bastards and they are fine with it, the Blairites on the other hand just can't face what they are.

And this is the main reason Labour have zero chance of winning this election, the far left members despise the left of centre members because they are not left enough, to the point they compare them to goddamn thatcherites, but still expect them to back their far left candidate, it's nonsense.

Hopefully after Labour suffer their incoming worst defeat since 1983 it will disenfranchise enough Corbyn backers for Labour to get an electable leader in, but then you have the issue that they may not be able to get enough far left votes to win the 2022 election lol.

Yet they bankrupted the country anyway, even whilst ditching the old policies. This isn't 1997 anymore, we've seen New Labour, what it achieved and the mess it made.

Well, in fairness they still did better than usual for a Labour government, at least the bins still got collected and we didn't hit the same lows.

IMO the biggest screw up Blair/Brown made was making it easier and more desirable to go to university, this created an entire generation which has hardly any professional trade skills but loads of degrees in useless subjects. As a result we have become dependant on foreign labour in many skill sectors. Corbyn wants to bring this back but make it free! (so it will be even easier/worse).

The country needs a party which represents the working class

Indeed, but a party that only appeals to some of them and has policies that attack the middle/upper classes cannot win an election.

[Noradin]

Indeed, but a party that only appeals to some of them and has policies that attack the middle/upper classes cannot win an election.

Yes that is the problem with FPTP: A party is only ever worth anything if it can win the whole thing, representing a part of society well is useless, representing everyone badly is what it takes.

[Huehuecoyotl]

He is to the left, of "left of centre", that's as far left as you can get without hitting the British Communist Party (yeah they're still going).

Your quote was that he was "far left". Which he isn't, not by a long chalk. Which means you either don't know what you're talking about, or are deliberately continuing the right wing efforts to spout lies long enough that people start to believe them. Either way you need to be called out on it.

Oh, and feel free to talk to someone in the Communist party. Ask them just how left-wing they see Corbyn.

[caervek]

Your quote was that he was "far left". Which he isn't, not by a long chalk.

If you read my post you quoted, I explained that while he is not as far to the left as the communist part he is still further to the left than centre left. I'm not sure if you are actually having trouble understanding at this point or just pretending, but here I drew you a damn map:



And this is why it's impossible for Labour to win with a far left candidate when there are more than two parties.

[Noradin]

If you read my post you quoted, I explained that while he is not as far to the left as the communist part he is still further to the left than centre left. I'm not sure if you are actually having trouble understanding at this point or just pretending, but here I drew you a damn map:



And this is why it's impossible for Labour to win with a far left candidate when there are more than two parties.

So your whole argument depends on everyone seeing the world from your point of view?
Because there are multiple alternatives how to draw and colour that map.

[Huehuecoyotl]

If you read my post you quoted, I explained that while he is not as far to the left as the communist part he is still further to the left than centre left. I'm not sure if you are actually having trouble understanding at this point or just pretending, but here I drew you a damn map:



And this is why it's impossible for Labour to win with a far left candidate when there are more than two parties.

Hmm. Let's see what you actually said then, shall we?

I never said that, but the issue is that while New Labour were centre left they were still left, hence the NHS funding, benefits, etc. And Corbyn is heavily left of centre left, AKA far left.

Bolded by me, for emphasis. And again in the post above, you state:

And this is why it's impossible for Labour to win with a far left candidate when there are more than two parties.

Bolded again. What you are doing it plain; you are stating again and again that Corbyn is far left. That Labour is now far left. Because of the negative associations with that, particularly in this country. However, he isn't far left, and your child-like simplification of the situation via your drawing doesn't make it so. Well done for that, by the way, make sure your mum puts it on the fridge for you.

So, feel free to keep up this strategy of "guilt by association" in your posts. And I will feel free to keep pointing it out to you. Or maybe I will start to point out that May is actually far-right? Since she now supports Brexit, and according to you supporting Brexit makes you far right? That's what your clever little diagram shows, isn't it?

[caervek]

Sthere are multiple alternatives how to draw and colour that map.

There are, but putting current labour in the left of centre category or putting "new labour" in the right wing is lying and that's the point I was making. Even if posters like the one I was arguing try to distort the truth it doesn't change the reality, and the reality is an important issue because a far right party simply cannot defeat a centre right party in a general election, it's not possible in the UK, and the lie that it is is the reason far right voters have saddled Labour with an unelectable leader who is about to give the party it's worst defeat in 34 years.

[Noradin]

There are, but putting current labour in the left of centre category or putting "new labour" in the right wing is lying and that's the point I was making. Even if posters like the one I was arguing try to distort the truth it doesn't change the reality, and the reality is an important issue because a far right party simply cannot defeat a centre right party in a general election, it's not possible in the UK, and the lie that it is is the reason far right voters have saddled Labour with an unelectable leader who is about to give the party it's worst defeat in 34 years.

Your whole argument relies on where you draw the line between left and far left (which you base solely on your own opinion) and on the assumption that the center is a more important designation than left and right.
Where it all falls apart: you provide no basis for your x-axis. And since everything you say relies solely on how you draw the x-axis the whole thing is shoddy.

[caervek]

What you are doing it plain; you are stating again and again that Corbyn is far left.

Because he is, like I said (and you just quoted/bolded) he is to the left of centre left on the political spectrum.

That Labour is now far left.

Because they are, this is the furthest left they have been in over three decades! They haven't won an election when this far left in over four decades! (when they faced a Tory party that was more right wing than today), this is why they are heading for their worst defeat since '83 and going into this election with the worst polls since the end of WW2!

Well done for that, by the way, make sure your mum puts it on the fridge for you.

I'm so sorry my 2min paint skills upset you, I didn't have time to photoshop a super detailed chart just to correct somebody who was wrong on the internet.

So, feel free to keep up this strategy of "guilt by association" in your posts.

I wasn't I was trying to combat it (correcting the people who compared blairites and centre left voters to thatcherites and centre right voters). This is Labours second biggest problem, in addition to having an unelectable leader they have a hard core of far left members who see anyone left of centre as the enemy, that's a terrible way to convince people your far left candidate is worth backing.

There's a good chance that centre left voters caught in the middle of a far left choice in Corbyn and a centre right choice in May could go either way, or vote Lib Dem, or just not vote. And one of the biggest reasons for that is the "either one of us or the enemy" attitude of the Corbynites.

[Huehuecoyotl]

There are, but putting current labour in the left of centre category or putting "new labour" in the right wing is lying and that's the point I was making. Even if posters like the one I was arguing try to distort the truth it doesn't change the reality, and the reality is an important issue because a far right party simply cannot defeat a centre right party in a general election, it's not possible in the UK, and the lie that it is is the reason far right voters have saddled Labour with an unelectable leader who is about to give the party it's worst defeat in 34 years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7lsRbDKOXg

This is Gyles Brandreth talking to a group of voters in a Tory heartland about a number of policies. They basically agree with all of the policies, and say that they all seem like sensible ideas. It is then explained to them that the policies are all current Labour policies, under Corbyn.

The politics aren't the issue; if the message can get across, the voters would support them. But the MSM won't allow them to get across, they are focused on character assassination of Corbyn and repeating the same tired lie about Labour being "far left". All the while giving the Tories a free run without challenging them properly.

Trust the Tories on the economy? They have had 7 years to fix it, and failed miserably. The only consistent thing in that time is their stated intention to clear the deficit in 5 years time. They were saying that in 2010, and they are still saying it today. Yet they are still touted as the only option that is "safe" for the economy of the country?

Trust the Tories on the NHS? They are bankrupting virtually every NHS trust in the country. They are continuing to give NHS workers real terms pay cuts. They have got rid of nursing bursaries that were there to help people get in to the nursing profession.

Trust the Tories on education? While they push for grammar education to be rolled back out across the country, despite evidence showing that it will be counter-productive? While they continue with the notion of free schools that ensure more of the education funding ends up in private pockets, while standards slip?

There is one party that SHOULD be unelectable, and it isn't Labour. The Tory party have failed in pretty much everything they have done in the last 7 years, making things consistently worse. And their own split ended up giving us the farcical Brexit vote, with all the damaging implications of that for the country. Where is the press holding them to account for this? Where are the headlines making it clear that the Tories cannot be trusted?

Nowhere to be seen. Because instead we get constant articles about how terrible Corbyn is. How the Labour party is splintered. How their policies won't work. They are attacking the opposition with the fervour that should be reserved for the ruling party. But won't be as long the MSM is owned by the same people that are funding the Tories in the first place.

And people like you are part of the problem. Parroting the same nonsense you see in the press and pretending it is somehow the truth. Without the support of people like you, the Tories wouldn't be a position to continue their push to extend the disparity between rich and poor in this country to breaking point.

- - - Updated - - -

Because they are, this is the furthest left they have been in over three decades!

I agree that this is the furthest left they have been in three decades. That is pretty much the only correct thing you have managed so far. But again, that is only by comparison with New Labour, who according to you were left of centre.

They continued to sell off council houses, started by Thatcher. Sound left wing to you?
They introduced PFI to the NHS, bringing the "market" into it. Sound left wing?
They eased financial controls in the city, paving the way for the impact of 2008 to hit us so badly. Does that sound left wing?
They got involved with an American led war in the Middle East. How about that? Is that the kind of thing the left wing are known for?
They didn't believe that public ownership was effective or desirable. Surely you don't think that is left wing?

Sure, there were some aspects of New Labour that were more left of centre. But they weren't the cornerstones of what New Labour stood for, Mandelson made sure of that. Which is why, as I said, that New Labour would have straddled that centre line, with more to the right than the left. There is a reason that is was widely quoted that Thatcher thought that New Labour was her biggest success, because they continued a lot of what she started (and with the NHS actually went further than she ever dared).

So yes, Labour now is to the left of New Labour, and most (if not all) of what they are saying would be considered left of centre. But far left? Not a chance. No matter how many times you state it.

Oh, and I did laugh at your "correct somebody who was wrong in the internet" comment. The irony wasn't lost on me.