Kosovo vs Crimea

[Deleted]

I really tend to get amused when Western Europeans and Americans criticized Russia for holding a referendum in Crimea and recognising it. I just have one question to you: Exactly what did Russia do that is in principle not the same as what America and the West did by recognizing an independent Kosovo?

They should never have been allowed to split off from Serbia. They're some of the worst thugs in the world.

[Deleted]

Wasn't that what they tried with Liberia? Sorry for Off-Topic.

No idea, but there should be a separate country for blacks from America IMO. I really think they deserve it.

I would also really love to see America's response to that, and their eventual attempt to crack it down. The truth is, they'll resort to all measures they can, but nobody could punish them.

Only America can do anything they want in the world without any form of retaliation by other countries. They can invade Syria and ruin the country entirely; nobody will do anything about it.

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How does Kosovo's independence actually serve America's interests? I mean, how Crimea's annexation serves Russian interest should be obvious I guess.

It acts as their satellite state. If they want to have an excuse to start a war, they can incite conflict there. If they want a way to increase tension and start conflict with Russia, they can make a mess in Kosovo, make it appear that the Serbians and their Russian fellows are mistreating the Kosovo-Albanians (similar narrative as what we find in Syria with Assad-Putin), and so they can once more find an excuse to put sanctions on Russia, attack its ally, or anything that hinders Russian influence and advances America's.

[Cerilis]

No idea, but there should be a separate country for blacks from America IMO. I really think they deserve it.

I would also really love to see America's response to that, and their eventual attempt to crack it down. The truth is, they'll resort to all measures they can, but nobody could punish them.

Only America can do anything they want in the world without any form of retaliation by other countries. They can invade Syria and ruin the country entirely; nobody will do anything about it.

Maybe you should split off that idea and make a seperate thread about it!

[Independent voter]

I really tend to get amused when Western Europeans and Americans criticized Russia for holding a referendum in Crimea and recognising it. I just have one question to you: Exactly what did Russia do that is in principle not the same as what America and the West did by recognizing an independent Kosovo?

So you'd be okay with the US annexing Canada?

[Machismo]

No, which doesn't change a thing because a referendum that infringes upon the sovereignty of a country is the same in principle, whether or not that referendum leads to an independent region or a region that joins another country.

Kosovo got independent from Serbia, which infringes upon Serbia's territorial sovereignty. Crimea got independent from Ukraine, same story. Only difference is that Crimea joined Russia. But, as a sovereign territory it can do that, just as much as Kosovo technically as a sovereign territory now could choose to join America if America also accepted it.

So, what is the difference?

Well, it's a huge difference, when the country in question is breaking sovereignty in order to steal land for themselves. Russia started a shadow war, murdered innocent people, then stole land. Is that something you support?

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So you'd be okay with the US annexing Canada?

Or Russia, he would fully support it, it seems. We'll just annex the good parts of Russia.

[Deleted]

Anyways, back on topic:
I don't recognise either of these breakaway regions as independent country/part of Russia. Separatism isn't a magic wand that you wave to make ethnic tensions disappear, and besides, the only reason they exist is because of foreign intervention by stronger nations with military interests in the region. Lets not pretend like the US or Russia gave a shit about anything else other than holding onto or expanding their influence in those regions.

Exactly.

That is the essence of what I say. As a person I cannot stand injustice; when one country like Russia is demonized for a chess move in the same game of chess that America plays, my blood begins to boil. The worst thing is that nobody ever does anything about America. They invade any countries they want, start any conflict they want, change any regime they want, and nobody can do anything. No sanctions. No war threat. Nothing.

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So you'd be okay with the US annexing Canada?

If Canadians vote for it, yes.

If people in Quebec vote for independence AND joining America, then yes, I would support it. Not because I support violation of sovereignty, but because I support that current standards be followed.

[Cerilis]

No idea, but there should be a separate country for blacks from America IMO. I really think they deserve it.

I would also really love to see America's response to that, and their eventual attempt to crack it down. The truth is, they'll resort to all measures they can, but nobody could punish them.

Only America can do anything they want in the world without any form of retaliation by other countries. They can invade Syria and ruin the country entirely; nobody will do anything about it.

- - - Updated - - -


It acts as their satellite state. If they want to have an excuse to start a war, they can incite conflict there. If they want a way to increase tension and start conflict with Russia, they can make a mess in Kosovo, make it appear that the Serbians and their Russian fellows are mistreating the Kosovo-Albanians (similar narrative as what we find in Syria with Assad-Putin), and so they can once more find an excuse to put sanctions on Russia, attack its ally, or anything that hinders Russian influence and advances America's.

Omg! I think we have found our first similarity! Just need to swap out some words, wait a sec...

make it appear that the Ukrainians and their American fellows are mistreating the Crimeans

That looks about right?

[Deleted]

Well, it's a huge difference, when the country in question is breaking sovereignty in order to steal land for themselves. Russia started a shadow war, murdered innocent people, then stole land. Is that something you support?

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Russia let Crimeans decide for themselves. They never invaded the place. The war that is going on isn't in Crimea, it is in Eastern Ukraine.

America also supported Kosovo. Do you actually think all America did there was to recognize their independence referendum? Just LOL!

[Machismo]

Exactly.

That is the essence of what I say. As a person I cannot stand injustice; when one country like Russia is demonized for a chess move in the same game of chess that America plays, my blood begins to boil. The worst thing is that nobody ever does anything about America. They invade any countries they want, start any conflict they want, change any regime they want, and nobody can do anything. No sanctions. No war threat. Nothing.

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If Canadians vote for it, yes.

If people in Quebec vote for independence AND joining America, then yes, I would support it. Not because I support violation of sovereignty, but because I support that current standards be followed.

So, you cannot stand injustice... except when one country steals land and people from another... that's fine with you. Got it.

[Cerilis]

Exactly.

That is the essence of what I say. As a person I cannot stand injustice; when one country like Russia is demonized for a chess move in the same game of chess that America plays, my blood begins to boil. The worst thing is that nobody ever does anything about America. They invade any countries they want, start any conflict they want, change any regime they want, and nobody can do anything. No sanctions. No war threat. Nothing.

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If Canadians vote for it, yes.

If people in Quebec vote for independence AND joining America, then yes, I would support it. Not because I support violation of sovereignty, but because I support that current standards be followed.

So if there had been a referendum in Kosovo to split off it would be okay too?

[Machismo]

Russia let Crimeans decide for themselves. They never invaded the place. The war that is going on isn't in Crimea, it is in Eastern Ukraine.

America also supported Kosovo. Do you actually think all America did there was to recognize their independence referendum? Just LOL!

Yes, they did invade. Russian troops were in Crimea, and other portions of Ukraine. They were not on vacation.

Did everyone in Crimea want to join Russia? Nope. So, they stole people and land, thanks.

[Deleted]

So, you cannot stand injustice... except when one country steals land and people from another... that's fine with you. Got it.

Russia didn't steal, they initiated and recognized a referendum.

America recognized a country that violated the sovereignty of another, which in principle is the same thing.

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Yes, they did invade. Russian troops were in Crimea, and other portions of Ukraine. They were not on vacation.

Did everyone in Crimea want to join Russia? Nope. So, they stole people and land, thanks.

The soldiers secured the area to ensure the Ukrainians wouldn't prevent the referendum from taking places. The soldiers didn't occupy the area and take it away; they let people voice their opinions.

No, not everyone wanted, but the majority did. Sorry, this is what democracy is.

[Machismo]

Russia didn't steal, they initiated and recognized a referendum.

America recognized a country that violated the sovereignty of another, which in principle is the same thing.

So, they pushed an illegal vote, and illegally took land and people from another country against their will. Does that about cover it? You must be furious at the injustice!!!

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Russia didn't steal, they initiated and recognized a referendum.

America recognized a country that violated the sovereignty of another, which in principle is the same thing.

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The soldiers secured the area to ensure the Ukrainians wouldn't prevent the referendum from taking places. The soldiers didn't occupy the area and take it away; they let people voice their opinions.

No, not everyone wanted, but the majority did. Sorry, this is what democracy is.

Yep, they invaded and stole land. Thanks for agreeing with me.

[Deleted]

So if there had been a referendum in Kosovo to split off it would be okay too?

... That's what there was a referendum for. I disagree with violating another country's territory generally, but Crimea followed the standard that the West set. That's okay.

Eye for an eye.

[callipygoustp]

I hope there is a version of you in an alternative universe that can understand simple explanations.

Was my first post unclear? I tried to write in the simplest terms possible. For reference, here it is again -

I have a feeling this thread will devolve into nothing more than "No no no, don't look at those differences. Now, tell me what differences there are!"

... and last I checked, you'd done this twice. Before the thread is over, I'm sure you'll do it a couple more times.

So, let me start: if you take away all the significant differences between the two situations, in principle both situations are exactly the same!

Truth!

[Ausr]

Didn't know we militarily took over Kosovo, held rigged referendums, and then annexed billion+ money pit.

[Deleted]

So, they pushed an illegal vote, and illegally took land and people from another country against their will. Does that about cover it? You must be furious at the injustice!!!

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Yep, they invaded and stole land. Thanks for agreeing with me.

No, the soldiers didn't take the land without a referendum. They secured the voices of the people. Nothing else. Kinda similar to the UN peace-keeping troops. You can call them invaders, but they aren't there to occupy land for the sake of violating territorial sovereignty.

Sure, you can say that the referendum in Crimea is illegal. That's entirely irrelevant. The thread isn't about the legality of it, but the principle. Kosovo was illegal as well.

[Cerilis]

... That's what there was a referendum for. I disagree with violating another country's territory generally, but Crimea followed the standard that the West set. That's okay.

Eye for an eye.

Oh, I misread that. But still, Kosovo didn't join any country, right? So it's not really the standard I guess.

[Deleted]

Didn't know we militarily took over Kosovo, held rigged referendums, and then annexed billion+ money pit.

America participated in the Serbia-Kosovo conflict, and they also supported the same kind of referendum there as there was in Crimea.

The difference is... oh right, there isn't any.

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Oh, I misread that. But still, Kosovo didn't join any country, right? So it's not really the standard I guess.

So, Crimeans should be allowed to be independent, but not join Russia?

If we allow them to determine their own future by holding an independence referendum, why not allow them to determine whether or not they want to be part of another country? What's the difference?

... lol

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Was my first post unclear? I tried to write in the simplest terms possible. For reference, here it is again -

... and last I checked, you'd done this twice. Before the thread is over, I'm sure you'll do it a couple more times.


Truth!

I really feel sorry for you.

[Deleted]

Wasn't that what they tried with Liberia? Sorry for Off-Topic.

Yeah, and it failed hard.