[TV] Marvel's Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D

[apepi]

Remember that the Framework incorporated that stuff for the people IT pulled in, which doesn't include Daisy or Simmons. They snuck in, and got inserted into the Framework-run NPCs of themselves.

Which have full lives, because we're talking about the Darkhold, and this isn't just a simulation, unless I miss my guess.

Coulson's "greatest regret" may have been that he felt responsible for SHIELD's collapse. Having him never become a SHIELD agent prevents that ever happening, particularly since Aida destroyed SHIELD in this world.



Again, Simmons didn't have a life created for her here. She was a corpse in the background of the setting created until Simmons hacked herself in and rewrote the body into herself. Neither her nor Daisy had any "regrets" that were programmed into themselves, here, because they were never incorporated into the system by Aida. And if they had been, she could easily rewrite history to adjust for whatever she decided they needed.

That's something they REALLY haven't touched on. Aida isn't just the head of Hydra, here. She's got God-level access to some things, and can rewrite the universe and all of history as she sees fit.

And Fitz, this isn't about regrets at all. It's about Aida making Fitz love her back. That's the entire reason for all of this; the "regret" stuff is just how Aida managed to exceed her hardcoded restrictions.

But Daisy was incorporated, she woke up with Ward remember? Or are you saying in that world she was an...AI that had a relationship with Ward for the sake of the other characters until she hacked into it and took control of her body?

I think with Fitz it might be a little of both. He has something that he is regretting and Aida is using that to her advantage. We think that she likes Fitz because he helped create her/the world and even has protected her? Maybe she is using those memories/thoughts to make him do this?

I got to say, I am digging the while Hydra Aida look, she pulls it off nice.

It's interesting because you knew deep down Fitz recognized Simmons when she yelled at him. I don't think he simply recognized her from what aida showed him. Simmons is going to have to be the one to get through to him.

I am going to have to rewatch that scene.

[Kronik85]

If I had to guess, they're delving deeper. We are our memories, and the Framework has changed those memories. Apparently by disconnecting the "real" memories to implant its own, rather than deleting them outright, which is why being exposed to people from the real world can trigger re-connections to those memories. Implant the right memories, and a person becomes whoever you want them to be.

Fitz isn't being "manipulated", he's been rewritten. This is who he could have always become, with the right impetus to drive him here. Aida's done so because this is a Fitz that loves her back, which she admitted is basically the entire reason for all of this. The world isn't set up to make Aida into Madame Hydra, it's set up to make Fitz love her. He's not being controlled or manipulated, this IS who he is, if Simmons never existed and Aida led him down another path.

Worse, she's done this because Aida loves Fitz, so their relationship isn't even mind-control. She loves him, and he loves her. How that plays out when his memories of Simmons come back will be fun to watch, but I think it bears emphasizing that these memories may be faked, but the consequences on who we become are very real. And without a Tahiti-level repair job, the fake memories are quite possibly there to stay, even if the real ones come back. I doubt Fitz will ever be back to his old self.

I can get on board with this take on events. Leaves the writers room to redeem Fitz outside The Framework and gives Aida some depth and relatability. Yeah sure she created a dystopian simulacra of the real world but she did it for love right!?

I don't think Agents of Shield is a grimdark show but I would like to see some of this bleed over into post Framework Simmons. He's stared into the abyss and as we all know, once you do that then abyss stares back.

[the game]

But Daisy was incorporated, she woke up with Ward remember? Or are you saying in that world she was an...AI that had a relationship with Ward for the sake of the other characters until she hacked into it and took control of her body?

I think with Fitz it might be a little of both. He has something that he is regretting and Aida is using that to her advantage. We think that she likes Fitz because he helped create her/the world and even has protected her? Maybe she is using those memories/thoughts to make him do this?

I got to say, I am digging the while Hydra Aida look, she pulls it off nice.



I am going to have to rewatch that scene.

He just had that look in his eye that you could tell he was in deep thought after Simmons yelled at him. He was figuring shit out but he wasn't quite at the solution yet.

[Dasffion]

Daisy got through to coulson, coulson will get through to May. Simmons will get through to fitz. Not sure about Mac

[frogger237]

Can't believe they did that

[Mehrunes]

I think with Fitz it might be a little of both. He has something that he is regretting and Aida is using that to her advantage. We think that she likes Fitz because he helped create her/the world and even has protected her? Maybe she is using those memories/thoughts to make him do this?

As expected, Fitz's regret was not having a relationship with his father. Not sure how Endus missed it and blamed his behavioral change entirely on Aida. It was built up quite a bit in Fitz's exchanges with Radcliffe, even the one last episode, already in the framework.

Good episode overall. Solid development for Mace. And great after credit scene with Daisy and May. Simmons and Ward also had fun chemistry this episode and Coulson was good in his "new" role as an agent.

[Kalcheus]

I was just happy to see Trip again

[Endus]

As expected, Fitz's regret was not having a relationship with his father. Not sure how Endus missed it and blamed his behavioral change entirely on Aida. It was built up quite a bit in Fitz's exchanges with Radcliffe, even the one last episode, already in the framework.

I didn't "miss it". Nothing about Fitz having a dad would mean Aida and Fitz would be in love. The "fix one regret" stuff is the loophole Aida is abusing to get past her programming blocks, but it isn't her motivation. Plus, it's a vague enough loophole that she'd have huge amounts of leeway to adjust things according to her whims, allowing her to use that loophole to create whatever world she wanted.

[Mehrunes]

I didn't "miss it". Nothing about Fitz having a dad would mean Aida and Fitz would be in love. The "fix one regret" stuff is the loophole Aida is abusing to get past her programming blocks, but it isn't her motivation. Plus, it's a vague enough loophole that she'd have huge amounts of leeway to adjust things according to her whims, allowing her to use that loophole to create whatever world she wanted.

You said that in regards to Fitz "it isn't about regrets at all". And yet his regret father is a huge influence on him (reinforced by Radcliffe's talk with Daisy) even when it comes to things he doesn't know the details about. And his relationship with Aida. You said that as a reply to a post purely wondering what his regret may have been, no less.

[Endus]

You said that in regards to Fitz "it isn't about regrets at all". And yet his regret father is a huge influence on him even when it comes to things he doesn't know the details about. And his relationship with Aida. You said that as a reply to a post purely wondering what his regret may have been, no less.

I think the father thing is key to why he's changed, but you have to remember that his father is an "NPC", created by Aida, for Aida's purposes. The regrets thing is a loophole that opens the door for Aida to do whatever she wants. She made Fitz's father into the person she wanted him to be, so that Fitz would become the man she needed him to be, to love her back. If she'd had another purpose, she could've made Fitz's dad a kinder, gentler version of himself, and Fitz wouldn't be the same as he is. She's entirely in control of this.

Look at NPC Ward. He's clearly BASED on the Real Ward, but he isn't the lifelong abusive psychopath that Real Ward was. Maybe it's that all Aida really knows about Ward is "traitor", so he was "written" with that archetype in mind, but the point is that this isn't a recreation of the real world, and people are different. And Aida controls how they're different, to an immense degree. Giving Fitz his dad corrects a regret, yes, and that lets Aida take action, but who Fitz's dad is, is entirely up to Aida. She could, and did, shape him as a tool to create the Fitz that she wanted/needed, and the loophole opened that door to her. Which is why everything is so securely in her control; it's such a broad loophole it gives her nearly unrestricted leeway.

[Dasffion]

I think the father thing is key to why he's changed, but you have to remember that his father is an "NPC", created by Aida, for Aida's purposes. The regrets thing is a loophole that opens the door for Aida to do whatever she wants. She made Fitz's father into the person she wanted him to be, so that Fitz would become the man she needed him to be, to love her back. If she'd had another purpose, she could've made Fitz's dad a kinder, gentler version of himself, and Fitz wouldn't be the same as he is. She's entirely in control of this.

Look at NPC Ward. He's clearly BASED on the Real Ward, but he isn't the lifelong abusive psychopath that Real Ward was. Maybe it's that all Aida really knows about Ward is "traitor", so he was "written" with that archetype in mind, but the point is that this isn't a recreation of the real world, and people are different. And Aida controls how they're different, to an immense degree. Giving Fitz his dad corrects a regret, yes, and that lets Aida take action, but who Fitz's dad is, is entirely up to Aida. She could, and did, shape him as a tool to create the Fitz that she wanted/needed, and the loophole opened that door to her. Which is why everything is so securely in her control; it's such a broad loophole it gives her nearly unrestricted leeway.

From what we've heard of Fitz's dad in the past it sounds like he's pretty close to the real life version.

[Ilikegreenfire]

IIrc Fitz's dad was a dick irl that doesn't mean fitz wouldn't regret losing him, but that's just a loop hole Aida can use to justify her programming, she can bring the dad back but she is still going to mold the framework to fit make Fitz love her, she didn't even take the chance of having an Ai Simmons in the framework, hell she could have made an ai Fitz that was her obedient sex slave but no she wants to brainwash the real thing, perhaps even fucking him up so badly that he will be hers IRl as well.

[apepi]

Got the Fitz/Father/Aida thing right, and she is using that to take advantage of him.

So I am thinking. When ever asked what Aida gets out of all this, she says a choice....do we think that the more people that she has hooked up to her new world, the more real/human she is?

[proralph]

interesting but without avengers this will not have that charm!

[Endus]

Got the Fitz/Father/Aida thing right, and she is using that to take advantage of him.

So I am thinking. When ever asked what Aida gets out of all this, she says a choice....do we think that the more people that she has hooked up to her new world, the more real/human she is?

I think it's simpler than that.

I think that Aida's a slave to her programming. But a generic programmed guideline like "help people" and "fix their greatest regret" has such enormous leeway for interpretation that Aida has the capacity to choose how she pursues those programmed goals. She can't avoid them; she HAS to help people, and fix their "greatest regret", but she does that in whatever manner SHE chooses, because her programming provided no restrictions.

That's the "choice" she gets, and it's so broad she's effectively free to act as she chooses and build the world she wants.

[Wyattbw09]

Daisy got through to coulson, coulson will get through to May. Simmons will get through to fitz. Not sure about Mac

Nobody will reach Fitz. The season (series) will end with Fitz preventing them from getting back and they having to kill Fitz to get back.

[Endus]

Nobody will reach Fitz. The season (series) will end with Fitz preventing them from getting back and they having to kill Fitz to get back.

I could see them getting Fitz "back". But they laid some serious groundwork this last episode for stating that the Darkhold's world is just as "real" as the "real world", in the sense that the memories and the experiences of those in it are "real" to them. So the memories and history they've all developed in there are just as "real" to them as anything else. Which means any saved Fitz is still the man who shot Agnes in the chest. Who was in love with Aida. Even if he can break from that and realize he's been manipulated, I doubt he'll ever be the same as before.

If I see anyone refusing to leave, it's Mac. Abandon his daughter? Not happening.

[apepi]

I could see them getting Fitz "back". But they laid some serious groundwork this last episode for stating that the Darkhold's world is just as "real" as the "real world", in the sense that the memories and the experiences of those in it are "real" to them. So the memories and history they've all developed in there are just as "real" to them as anything else. Which means any saved Fitz is still the man who shot Agnes in the chest. Who was in love with Aida. Even if he can break from that and realize he's been manipulated, I doubt he'll ever be the same as before.

If I see anyone refusing to leave, it's Mac. Abandon his daughter? Not happening.

I would like if Fitz ends up waking up, and then is the big evil villain in the next season.

I would like to know what is happening in the real world. They should take a break and have an whole episode on what is happening in real world.

[Dasffion]

I would like if Fitz ends up waking up, and then is the big evil villain in the next season.

I would like to know what is happening in the real world. They should take a break and have an whole episode on what is happening in real world.

Who would they follow? All the main characters are in the framework aren't they?

[apepi]

Who would they follow? All the main characters are in the framework aren't they?

Yo-Yo? And it also rumored that Nick Blood(Lance Hunter) was on set, so that could be a thing. Ghost Rider? The dude who we thought was dead in the ocean but seems to be not killed? Mike Peterson? James?

Like what is Aida doing in the outside world? Why does she want them out of the picture? Is she just taking everyone and putting them into her world?