Prune talents into 2 specs for all classes - A mind experiment

[Alomega]

Then there is also the question of trinkets and tier sets. Will tank trinkets drop for me a DPS player? (prot / ret). What about stamina? Will the prot / ret spec have a shitload of stamina? Kinda unfair to pure dps classes if that is the case. And what about PvP? So basically tank "hybrids" everywhere? Or DPS that can heal a ton? Will pure DPS specs be glass cannons?

If I have to choose a "stance" then it is basically the same as picking a spec. I can guarantee that the "stance" will have some sort of cast time / cooldown. Just like changing specs have now. So at then end of the day we still have the dps/heal/tank specs... Why bother then?

[l33t]

I'd love Blizzard to stop trying to reintroduce castrated pseudo-vanilla shit and instead focus on ADDING stuff to their game instead of DELETING more. Which means: MORE talents, MORE abilities, MORE specs, MORE everything. Not LESS.

[Niwes]

This isn't necessarily a horrible idea, and in fact I like the idea of roles being determined by talent choices (allowing you to kinda do mixes depending on what you need at the time for example) and if done right could make a lot of classes a whole lot better. Honestly, as a warlock I love the idea of demonology in its horrible atrocious current state no longer being a thing, I could imagine all sorts of cool things like demon summoning being weaved between fire spells and the infernal being a full-on replacement for affliction's doomguard. I used to love demonology but the current demonology is a laughable attempt at something that the class has never been about anyway. The only time we ever mass-summoned demons was during the Unerring Vision MoP days.

But I speak as someone who has a current main that is very sloppily divided. I feel as if most (not all) mages, hunters, warlocks and rogues would be overall okay with this because each of these classes has that one bogus spec that simply doesn't see a lot of play or is clunkily designed. However the idea of a lot of the hybrid classes losing their clear-cut identities is a pretty hard pill to swallow.

That being said if done interestingly enough I honestly think it could work out, what you're proposing is essentially the old talent system with a new and more simplified style.

this one get it. you could do a way better, more diverse e.g. warlock spec when you have more options, as a game designer. but your options are limited at the moment by "but i cant do that, cause i need this to differ the other spec". if you cut that spec, and take 2/3 of the specs options, you have MORE options as a game designer to diverse 1 spec and you can form a way more diverse demo/fire lock spec with drastic talent choices (shadowbolt/dot playstyle VS inci/CB playstyle) combined with pets etc.

more options available to form 1 spec is a good thing for a game designer. not a bad thing. therefore a 2nd or 3rd spec that takes away options, isnt a good thing, from this point of view.

just think about the extreme: lets say blizz had designed classes with 10 specs. every single spec could have max 3 talents that sheer do all the same, bc talent x is already in spec 9, talent y is already in spec 3, and so on...

think about choosing talents have such drastic consequences on your class like choosing spec today. that would be great. and now think about how much better this xpac would be (and especially THIS xpac) when this had happened now! Legion, the only xpac that fixed you massively into 1 spec, would profit the most, if that spec had the diversity of 2 specs.

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I'd love Blizzard to stop trying to reintroduce castrated pseudo-vanilla shit and instead focus on ADDING stuff to their game instead of DELETING more. Which means: MORE talents, MORE abilities, MORE specs, MORE everything. Not LESS.

in some way i have exactly the same oppinion. the game was better when it was broader, deeper or whatever. but the fact is: today this is no longer possible. if you want quantity you loose quality. thats the first problem, today.

the second problem is: when you add more and more, then more and more start feeling like the same bc you got x colored red, instead y colored blue. the more abilities/talents you have, the less they differ.

and blizzard was never the company that do huge gaps in design and try creative things even when they are far from balancable etc. they were conservative. since day one. if this is your business model, you want less quantity with high quality, not the other way around.

[Deleted]

I have been a big fan of this idea for years. It's painfully obvious that Blizzard is unable to balance 39 different classes correctly.

[Niwes]

I am not talking about talents. I am talking about abilities you get in your spell book as you level up. E.g Crusader Strike. Now prot has access to Crusader Strike. How are you going to balance that?

If we have to switch forms all the time why not just prune the talent tree to 2 choices per row and call it a day? Why do you want to confuse people by merging specs???

and i give you an exact answer to that...

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I have been a big fan of this idea for years. It's painfully obvious that Blizzard is unable to balance 39 different classes correctly.

correct. i know a lot of ppl askin theirselfs since years: why the heck dont they press all that shit together, form 22-23 (druid included, and before DH) specs and get that shit balanced ? and more diverse, than an assa rogue vs a sub rogue ?

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Then there is also the question of trinkets and tier sets. Will tank trinkets drop for me a DPS player? (prot / ret). What about stamina? Will the prot / ret spec have a shitload of stamina? Kinda unfair to pure dps classes if that is the case. And what about PvP? So basically tank "hybrids" everywhere? Or DPS that can heal a ton? Will pure DPS specs be glass cannons?

If I have to choose a "stance" then it is basically the same as picking a spec. I can guarantee that the "stance" will have some sort of cast time / cooldown. Just like changing specs have now. So at then end of the day we still have the dps/heal/tank specs... Why bother then?

it seems that you dont get that nothing changes? if you choose ret, it drops for ret. like today. ??? its just a fukin simple reorganization.

[Noradin]

I they prune anything more it would have to be the "RPG" from MMORPG.

[Niwes]

Then there is also the question of trinkets and tier sets. Will tank trinkets drop for me a DPS player? (prot / ret). What about stamina? Will the prot / ret spec have a shitload of stamina? Kinda unfair to pure dps classes if that is the case. And what about PvP? So basically tank "hybrids" everywhere? Or DPS that can heal a ton? Will pure DPS specs be glass cannons?

If I have to choose a "stance" then it is basically the same as picking a spec. I can guarantee that the "stance" will have some sort of cast time / cooldown. Just like changing specs have now. So at then end of the day we still have the dps/heal/tank specs... Why bother then?

why bother? bc today you have 18 slightly different talents for every spec. a lot of them will never be balancable. a lot of them are outliers. a lot of them are boring as fuck. so, get rid of that shit. prune that shit into 9 per spec, and make (paladin example) a holy+dps spec and a prot+dps spec.

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I they prune anything more it would have to be the "RPG" from MMORPG.

yep. i agree. the game lost way too much. but i am not sure if talents should be one of them.

personally i say: give me a lot of pruned abilities back (maybe even through talents) but give me less talents but more diverse talents.

i am in the same boat that i dont wanna loose more stuff in wow. but they pruned the wrong thing. they should give you 12 buttons on your bar to press in fight, but customize them with fewer but way more impacting talent choices.

instead of classes with 6 abilities and 18 talents, i want classes with 12 abilities and 9-10 powerful/meaningful talents (which some of them could of course completely replace 1 of the 12 abilities).

[gushDH]

So what you are basicaly saying is, we will still have specs, just it will be in the fashion of choosing only specific talents? So for example retri chooses the 1st talents, holy the 2nd talents etc?

Why have specs at all then? Just have "paladin" and you choose talents. That was the way in the old days, it's outdated, and will not be implemented at all. As fun as a hybrid class might sound, it is never useful to have one with the current raid/dungeon setup. Rift tried to make a "support" role, but the only thing that happened with it was, wherever there was supposed to be a support role, there was a dps role, because it was better.

This change will only reduce the choices. You will have only 1 build depending on what you want to do. Do you want to go retri? Then choose the 1st talents and play like that for ever. Fun.

[Better]

This entire system seems odd, and unnecessary. Merging DPS and healer/DPS and tank just reduces the talents you'd have for those specs for literally no reason. Then you go on to make them have stances they need to be in for their role... meaning it might as well just be a spec, and have more talent options? Overall it seems super unrealistic to suddenly say; "Oh you guys love X spec? Well it's been kinda half merged into the other two specs, which won't play like it exactly, but have a spell named the same thing!" There is no benefit to the playerbase whatsoever with this system.

Also why do you think the pruning has to do with cutting costs? Did you play BM in MoP? The opener had you hitting something like 11 different spells within 5 GCDs of the pull, it was getting a little crazy.

[Niwes]

Yeah, they're doing whatever they want regardless of what their "customers" say. Right on. They're a private company and not your nurse.
Your theory about pruning and cost efficiency is ridiculous and offensively anti-intellectual.

Please spare as with further elaborate "ideas".

no one will ever argue with you, that its more cost efficient when you have to maintain and balance 22 specs instead of 34 and 11x2x18 talents instead of 11x3x18 (+1x18 for 4th druid spec) talents... (calced without DH).

[Lightbull]

This is why the community shouldn't design games. Let the pros deal with it, there's no problem with the current system.

[coblade14]

You know why Blizzard broke Feral into Feral(Cat) and Guardian right? It is hard to balance the amount of choices between the two play styles. They can't give a play style too much choice, or it will hinder on the other style. Even when it's 'balanced', it doesn't feel good because you basically have no choice going down one specific play style.

[l33t]

in some way i have exactly the same oppinion. the game was better when it was broader, deeper or whatever. but the fact is: today this is no longer possible. if you want quantity you loose quality. thats the first problem, today.

the second problem is: when you add more and more, then more and more start feeling like the same bc you got x colored red, instead y colored blue. the more abilities/talents you have, the less they differ.

and blizzard was never the company that do huge gaps in design and try creative things even when they are far from balancable etc. they were conservative. since day one. if this is your business model, you want less quantity with high quality, not the other way around.

I do understand what you're saying, but the problem is, this method works on paper, but blizzard devs fail miserably to execute it. The more things we lost from the game, the worse the game becomes, not the other way around, sadly. Still, at current levels of absurd pruning, I'm absolutely OK if they prune talents as well, because talents currently give almost zero customisation levels (except for a couple of outlier specs which are developed better), and add nothing to a game except for gimping player characters on purpose, when in reality talents should give more power to a character, not less. So, if specializations are forever gone into talents, and current talents become abilities, I'm absolutely OK with that.

Although I'd vastly prefer Blizzard to stop being absurd, greedy dumbfuckers and start making the game as they did during WoTLK. With passion in mind and for gamers. Unlike now, when they do it with subscription retention in mind and for shareholders. Morons.

[Deleted]

Given there's, for certain classes, enough room lore wise for four specs [Warrior - Gladiator, Mage - Spellbreaker, Paladin - Shockadin, DH - I dunno, some name for a ranged dps spec] I would say that cutting down to two specs per class would be dumb as hell.

[Aldaran22]

You know why Blizzard broke Feral into Feral(Cat) and Guardian right? It is hard to balance the amount of choices between the two play styles. They can't give a play style too much choice, or it will hinder on the other style. Even when it's 'balanced', it doesn't feel good because you basically have no choice going down one specific play style.

This. Blizzard actively moved away from exactly what you are talking about for a very good reason. Balance might be a bit out of wack but it's clearly better than it was during the vanilla play style you are talking about. And let's not talk about balancing itemization around it either.

[Juggsa]

Redo all classes from scratch instead. Or delete and make newnones

[Polybius]

why? what can you not do by sticking unholy stuff (pets, dots, etc.) to talents, and also the frost stuff? i see no "impossible" here.

The difference would be rotation, there are restrictions in each spec. Unless they went the cosmetic route and based it off animation with a single talent that modifies your entire gameplay ala Clarity of Power -- which saw players choose the highest dps anyway.

[Niwes]

I do understand what you're saying, but the problem is, this method works on paper, but blizzard devs fail miserably to execute it. The more things we lost from the game, the worse the game becomes, not the other way around, sadly. Still, at current levels of absurd pruning, I'm absolutely OK if they prune talents as well, because talents currently give almost zero customisation levels (except for a couple of outlier specs which are developed better), and add nothing to a game except for gimping player characters on purpose, when in reality talents should give more power to a character, not less. So, if specializations are forever gone into talents, and current talents become abilities, I'm absolutely OK with that.

Although I'd vastly prefer Blizzard to stop being absurd, greedy dumbfuckers and start making the game as they did during WoTLK. With passion in mind and for gamers. Unlike now, when they do it with subscription retention in mind and for shareholders. Morons.

agree.

but since blizz became what they became, and stretch everything even further on the "put in least possible effort to get most money out of it" route, they will bring stuff like i mentioned in the near future. i am relatively sure. its just a matter of time until they prune even that. and as you said, maybe, in the current (not great) state of the game it maybe even makes sense.

at least its more cost efficient to balance and maintain 24 specs instead of 36. blizz is aware of that. and it will happen (in a form i mentioned, or another). in the end, thats all i am saying.

[exo-razmus]

I'd be more onboard for some classes to get a 4th spec over having specs consolidated. 4th specs such as a ranged survival in addition to the melee survival for example.

If they consolidated specs, yea, they'd lose a lot of die hard [insert spec here] players and the ones that stay would probably be as vocal if not more vocal than they were over ability pruning.

[Pull My Finger]

no one will ever argue with you, that its more cost efficient when you have to maintain and balance 22 specs instead of 34 and 11x2x18 talents instead of 11x3x18 (+1x18 for 4th druid spec) talents... (calced without DH).

I was referring to the first 4 paragraphs of your post, which where absolutely ridiculous.
As for your "aggresive theory": Christ. I'm not even going there.