G2A rep does live Q&A at Reboot conference, gets blasted by developers

[Nutri]

Just because u don't like what I post doesn't make me wrong.

Here is a idea, put me on ignore if u don't like my posts.

Go prove that you're not wrong then. You're dodging again, because you can't. You just nailed my entire post with one single line of text.

And I can put you on ignore, but you're the one posting these threads and those will still show even after I blocked you.

[Jtbrig7390]

Go prove that you're not wrong then. You're dodging again, because you can't. You just nailed my entire post with one single line of text.

And I can put you on ignore, but you're the one posting these threads and those will still show even after I blocked you.

The thread is 5 pages long go read it, Go watch the TB video I posted before "That even provides links"

Go use this magical site called Google Because I have grown tired of handholding you and you ignoring it. At this point you are posting just to argue with me and repeating myself over and over has gotten us no where between me and you.

Also nothing has you have to comment in threads I make, Since you clearly don't like them.

[Zogarth]

You have never ever never never never ever ever ever never ever proven any of you oh so legitimate claims for everything you ever said about G2A.
Yeah, you linked some hipster youtube movies maybe. Or some indie developer in tears posting about some losses. That's it. Those are your 'facts'.

All you ever do is speculate and hold it for your own truth.

And "because it is so" is no valid argument. You are never able to back up anything you say about G2A. Never, not even once! Youtube casters are no valid source, a handful of butt-hurt Indies are no valid source. You're advocating your own opinion as the truth and are always lashing out to anybody who disagrees with you.

Just stop posting your G2A Crusade. Make a blog or something. Stop injecting your G2A hate into the forums with the only outcome for it to become one big mess ending in you reporting people who stood on your toes.

Stop making 2 or 3 threads about it every week. Put up your "Jtbrig Hates G2A" thread and go sip tea with your disciples there. The number of G2A threads you post should be classified as spam by now. Stop your pollution.

There is so much out there proving that G2A is shady as fuck and operating a grey-market website, while making it purposefully hard for consumers to get their money back/cancel shield subscriptions etc. Denying that they are shady is just being willingly ignorant/delusional. It is at the level of claiming that the earth is flat and that vaccinations cause autism.

[Jtbrig7390]

There is so much out there proving that G2A is shady as fuck and operating a grey-market website, while making it purposefully hard for consumers to get their money back/cancel shield subscriptions etc. Denying that they are shady is just being willingly ignorant/delusional. It is at the level of claiming that the earth is flat and that vaccinations cause autism.

He just pops into threads to argue with me and ignores anything shown.

Its best to not waste your time on him, I have already wasted to much time on him in this thread.

[Deleted]

Youtube casters are no valid source, a handful of butt-hurt Indies are no valid source. You're advocating your own opinion as the truth and are always lashing out to anybody who disagrees with you.

Out of interest, what do you consider a valid source?

[niil945]

Yes, yes you did.

It seems you're reading comprehension is lacking to the point of it being purposeless for anything other than the following: You're wrong. But don't worry, I will pander to your wont of heedless dialogue.

You admitted to being wrong on your first point and then moved the goalposts. You believe your opinion is somehow unbiased despite there being a very clear and obvious bias. Since you were shown that games were cheaper due to them remaining mostly the same price or becoming cheaper adjusted for inflation you then tried to present games as somehow being made with less production value than in the past, despite being far more technical and grandiose. Being presented with a counter argument based on objective fact that utterly destroyed your original message, that you considered fact, you moved to a second argument regarding your opinion of the content (subjective) which fits the narrative of your personal bias regarding the current state of the game industry likely contrasting sharply with your nostalgia.

Objectively speaking, production value has increased, costs have gone up, time spent in production has gone up - but the price of the game has stayed the same or dropped (adjusted for inflation).

The conversation didn't wander, it moved from your recognition of being wrong to your stance that you are somehow still right because of your "assessment" (seepinion) of the state of games being developed, rather than your originally "factual" analysis.

So you can't handle a dialogue without devolving into a middle school kid. Got it. "You're wrong!" "Yes you did yes you did yes you did!" "ohmygod he said moving the goalposts in a post so I'm going to repeat it back to him, no you moved the goalpost! You! You did it!"

I'm sorry you believe you're right and you're not willing to actually engage in a rational conversation or objectively analyze anything presented to you by people with differing opinions. I wish I could help you to see that 40 is actually less than 60. I wish you could understand that physically passing a game to a friend instead of them having to buy it is 0, which is btw also less than 60. Good luck passing your Steam, Origins, or console account around so friends can use it after you finish playing a game. I wish you could see that 4, which is what I rented a game for a couple days from Blockbuster or Hollywood Video, is also less than 60. And sales, you do realize sales aren't some new thing right? They have actually been doing them to games the whole time! I could go on and on here, but suffice it to say I don't think there's any point. Plus I could use some sleep about now It's been entertaining!

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You have never ever never never never ever ever ever never ever proven any of you oh so legitimate claims for everything you ever said about G2A.
Yeah, you linked some hipster youtube movies maybe. Or some indie developer in tears posting about some losses. That's it. Those are your 'facts'.

All you ever do is speculate and hold it for your own truth.

And "because it is so" is no valid argument. You are never able to back up anything you say about G2A. Never, not even once! Youtube casters are no valid source, a handful of butt-hurt Indies are no valid source. You're advocating your own opinion as the truth and are always lashing out to anybody who disagrees with you.

Just stop posting your G2A Crusade. Make a blog or something. Stop injecting your G2A hate into the forums with the only outcome for it to become one big mess ending in you reporting people who stood on your toes.

Stop making 2 or 3 threads about it every week. Put up your "Jtbrig Hates G2A" thread and go sip tea with your disciples there. The number of G2A threads you post should be classified as spam by now. Stop your pollution.

lol but he's pretty funny to watch rage as I pick apart his trash arguments

[Redroniksre]

Meh wouldn't be sad to see G2A go to be honest. One of my favorite indie developers, Unknown Worlds (Natural Selection 2, Subnautica) almost went bankrupt because of them reselling a ton of stolen keys. Shit just watch any of Totalbiscuits videos on that site. Sure there will always be site like that, but the reason G2A gets the flak is because they are by far the most public about it.

[Jtbrig7390]

I'm sorry you believe you're right and you're not willing to actually engage in a rational conversation or objectively analyze anything presented to you by people with differing opinions.

Your "analyzed opinion" was proven wrong factually by many posters already.

You are one of a couple posters here who don't want to engage in a rational conversation. You are stuck on the mentality of "I'm right your wrong" and refuse everything said to you that doesn't fit your view point.

I have even went into great detail a few times showing you how Factually you are wrong. You keep posting a proven wrong opinion with nothing to back it up. I proved I'm right with data/links a few times already.

Your Opinion doesn't beat the FACT's I have provided to you.

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lol but he's pretty funny to watch rage as I pick apart his trash arguments

I haven't raged once and when did you pick apart my "Trash argument's" because I haven't seen it yet.

[Vespian]

Stop making 2 or 3 threads about it every week. Put up your "Jtbrig Hates G2A" thread and go sip tea with your disciples there. The number of G2A threads you post should be classified as spam by now. Stop your pollution.

_O_ _O_ _O_

I pray to thee, my lord.

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Out of interest, what do you consider a valid source?

You know, this thing called actual fact

It's the opposite of the JTbrump alternative facts.

[Mic_128]

You know, this thing called actual fact

No, a source is where you get your facts from. Like you would get water from a tap. Water is the fact and the tap might be a journalist.

Who would you believe when they told you a fact?

[Jtbrig7390]

I bought a G2A game recently. It was a good experience. I have a lot of disposable income but I still like to fuck over anyone possible when it comes to matters of money, especially when it comes to entertainment. I will continue to use G2A until THEY give me a reason not to, especially since it apparently upsets some people here.

At lease you admit it, just remember in the end you are also fucking yourself over.

[Vespian]

No, a source is where you get your facts from. Like you would get water from a tap. Water is the fact and the source might be a journalist.

Who would you believe when they told you a fact?

I don't believe anyone that tells a fact. Because I cannot see that fact. But if it's like, say Wikileaks;
1. First data gets posted. Actual, real, data. Numbers, email addresses, passwords, copies of emails, the links that connect the supposed perpetrator to the act.
2. Confirmation that the data is real, coming from multiple reliable sources. Yes, this is subjective. Internet celebs are not a reliable source.

- What we currently have is evidence that CC fraud took place. But this does not mean that G2A is responsible for that fraud. A link that proves their involvement is completely missing.
- We know that G2A won't start implementing checks towards CC fraud. We have already concluded in prior threads, that G2A is simply not in the position to know it's CC fraud, before the money gets returned. G2A can't implement a CC fraud shield. G2A can't be proved to be related to the actual fraud.
- We've seen how easy it is to commit fraud and sell the keys to G2A. G2A currently has nothing (or maybe that has changed) to flag trusted partners. Improvements can be made. This still doesn't say anything about their intent.
- We know there's a customer protection system, which costs the consumer money, while in Western countries, customer protection is free. This is currently the only shady system that can easily be proved (it's sort of in your face), but at the same time, you still get the game for 75% of the regional value. It's not actually anti-consumer.
- We know that G2A tries to safe face by adding supposed developer support constructs.

No one is saying that G2A is clean. That's quite clear. But no one is able to prove beyond a doubt, that G2A is willingly and knowingly involved in CC fraud.

And the main question still stands, why are we focusing on G2A, when the actual problem is CC fraud (of which a majority takes place in the US, because US citizens are rated by DEBT. Gosh, what could possibly be the cause of CC fraud oO).

[Jtbrig7390]

Not really. I have no respect for court jesters (various forms of paid entertainers) and could easily do without them.

Clearly you can't since you still consume there product. If this was true you wouldn't indulge in any form of entertainment.

[Mic_128]

For all the arguments that piracy or gray market goods will eventually ruin the entertainment industry, there are millions of people who have no other aspirations in life than to get paid to present me with mild enjoyment while I'm high or drunk. Nothing will change about that.

No, but if it doesn't really matter to you, it's better to pirate than G2A. Cheaper and doesn't make smaller companies give up and stop creating.

I don't believe anyone that tells a fact. Because I cannot see that fact.

Good god, you must have driven your teachers insane.

[tapczan100]

G2A bad or good whatever, you guys do know that devs actually have to sell Steam keys to actual people? You can't just hop on Steam and be like "i'd like 500 keys to that game". Devs distribute their own keys to other resellers which then sell those keys anywhere they can.

[Vespian]

Good god, you must have driven your teachers insane.

Really? That's all you come up with? Just ..ridicule it, so you don't have to answer the actual point?

I'll tell you how I perceive teachers and teachings.
- I had math teachers. They told me that 1+1=2. Across everything else I've learned, it seems that 1+1=2 holds up everywhere. Through a combination of reality, authority and global presence, I accept this as the truth, as fact.
- I had Language teachers for English, Dutch, French, German, Ancient Latin and Ancient Greek. They taught me Grammar and Spelling. Through their authority and personal experience, I have accepted this as the truth. I have also accepted the truth that I'm not perfect in any of these languages. I'm aware that I have flaws.
- I had 'social education' teachers. They teach you about the equality of life, the equality of cultures and the equality of all elements in relation to eachother. I have long believed that to be true, but personal and global experience teaches us that, while we would like all people to be equal, equality is not actually something everyone believes in.
- I've had Religion teachers. They tell me that the word of God is peace and that religion is freedom. They tell me Jesus rose from the dead. At first I was willing to believe that, because I was too young to be able to interpret that in context to reality, but once I started reading books, I started to realize that the bible was a word for fiction and fiction does not represent the truth. While it's a nice dream, it's not part of reality. Thus I stepped from that faith.

If you do not question everything, how can you claim to be knowledgeable? If you only live in an echo-well and blindly accept what others tell you, how can you discern true from false? Never blindly accept. Always ask for support to these facts, because some random guy on the internet might say it's a fact, but it's not a fact until they're able to present proof of these facts.

The fact is, that G2A can not be tied to the CC fraud and without those ties and without the numbers that prove those ties, all we have are some minor, but legal, issues, that are neither explicitly damaging or shady. Nothing to be able to call definitive proof of anything.

[Sheevah]

R
The fact is, that G2A can not be tied to the CC fraud and without those ties and without the numbers that prove those ties, all we have are some minor, but legal, issues, that are neither explicitly damaging or shady. Nothing to be able to call definitive proof of anything.

Whether or not G2A has an active hand in the CC fraud is actually a bit of a strawman (not that you're going that route, just that it could be interpreted that way). Most of the complaints are aimed at the environment G2A provides being simultaneously laced with anti-consumer (G2A shield) and anti-developer (stolen keys) traits.

I think that many people struggle with the ethics of the entire grey market scheme more than the legality of it. Giving G2A a pass for its grey market nature (justifying their business practices, as opposed to purchasing from them for personal gain) is a bit like giving a cop a free pass when they fail to stop a crime in progress so long as they fulfill their own legal requirements and subsequently hold a press conference declaring they did everything they could. In both scenarios, there are legitimate reasons and/or actions that could verify whether or not a reasonable effort was put in place to prevent the crime, but we simply are not privy to those things when it comes to G2A.

Essentially, we're left in a bit of a pickle where there are multiple developers that specifically point to G2A (and other grey markets) as harming their business because of the ease of selling stolen keys. Furthermore, we have a recent tale of an individual that embarrassed G2A during their AMA by proving how easy it was to put up an illegitimate key. On top of that, we've seen the people that could clear the air on the business practices (G2A, themselves) flounder about time and again when trying to defend their model and policies.

So, can we factually prove that G2A is directly involved with illegal activity? No. Is it *reasonable* to believe that G2A provides an environment that is conducive to illegal activities and fails to effectively prevent them at this time, while claiming they're doing a great job? Yes. That leaves me in the position where I don't fault consumers for looking for the cheaper option for the products, but when developers are on the record as saying they'd prefer you pirate a game instead of buying it off G2A, we seriously have to consider the consequences of defending grey market retailers.

That's just my 2 copper.

[Katchii]

I don't refuse to acknowledge inflation. Looking at inflation has value in many discussions. It's just not a simple "apply calculation and that's how expensive it would be today!" as you people pretend it is. Especially when we're talking about an industry that has been dramatically changed by technology and easy access to hundreds of millions of people via the internet to sell those digital goods to that used to be physical products. Simply applying inflation heavy handed and trying to pass that off as the price of an item from almost 2 decades ago demonstrates you have very little understanding of economics, distribution of goods, advertising, the cost of access to consumers, and on and on and on. The fact that you're using inflation to spin the discussion that way demonstrates you don't know what you're talking about.

That's really the only way TO apply it in situations like this. If the inflation between 1990 and 2017 was 100% (arbitrary number for easy math, that's all) that means the value of a dollar was 100% more in 1990 than it is now which means that if the price of an item doesn't vary by that much over the years, like the average video games which have been ~$60 for the last 10 or so years at least, that means they are actually decreasing in value because a $60 game today has the value of $120 back in the 90's. The PRICE is the same, but the VALUE is not.

The discussion is about how far your money can go today vs back then and it can go farther today than back then. Aside from all of the digital mediums that have ridiculous sales all the time anyway which weren't a thing back then, the value of a video game today is less than the value of a video game back then. Hence the argument about why now is the cheapest time to be a gamer than it ever was.

[Manabomb]

So games cost $50 back then, and adjusting for inflation to 2017 you need to add around another $10 to the values from 2010. Inflation has been approx 3% yoy. You're looking at $70.

Despite production value increasing dramatically, game prices have stayed below the rate of inflation. Always.

Sorry, but you can't even demonstrate the ability to reach an accurate conclusion from data you yourself have collected. Perhaps you should remain ignorant to the subject matter, to save yourself the embarrassment.

You realize production value pretty much only has to deal with the value of the company and what they rate the value of their "time" as, right? Because that's all it takes to create video games is humans sinking a lot of time into coding and graphical design.

All the rest is copied data. They make the game once and copy it a million times for free. It'd be entirely different if they had to make every single copy of the game from scratch like say, a car.

[Vespian]

I think that many people struggle with the ethics of the entire grey market scheme more than the legality of it. Giving G2A a pass for its grey market nature (justifying their business practices, as opposed to purchasing from them for personal gain) is a bit like giving a cop a free pass when they fail to stop a crime in progress so long as they fulfill their own legal requirements and subsequently hold a press conference declaring they did everything they could. In both scenarios, there are legitimate reasons and/or actions that could verify whether or not a reasonable effort was put in place to prevent the crime, but we simply are not privy to those things when it comes to G2A.

I agree that the way I'm reasoning leaves out the entire underbelly. It simply can't be supported, legally speaking, that they have a hand in the activities. In your analogy, G2A are the cops and the illegal transactions the crimes. The problem in this specific scenario is, that G2A can't see and is unable to verify in reality, technically and functionally whether the transaction was a legitimate or an illegitimate transaction. They could, and should, decrease the abuse of the system they're using, but they cannot prevent CC fraud, nor actively look for it. Even the bank, doesn't actually know that a transaction is false, until there's a report with a refund request. This can be weeks to months later.

It's not to say that they can't at least make the attempt to prevent the sale of illegitimate keys, because they can, it's only to suggest that shutting down G2A is not the solution to a far bigger problem. So big in fact, that it's basically unfathomable that an irrelevant symptom like G2A, merely a drop in a sea of CC fraud of over 55 billion dollars annually, has become the scapegoat of the industry.