Fire Buff...too much, not enough. Good start.

[Deleted]

Was the same with S2M and shadows. At the beginning of S2M only few players pulled insane numbers. But morw and more people closed the skill gap, top players rerolled to shadow and in the end, shadow was mandatory for highend raiding.

Lets be serious: many frost mages are currently bad. They perform bad because they dont understand the spec or make mistakes screwing their dps. Frost is pretty unforgiving at top level, just like S2M.

Frost mage with double IL is the new S2M. Mediocre players perform solid while top players pull insane numbers.

Balancing fire frost and arcane is impossible without nerfing frost.

Why would our frost mage ever stop playing frost when he can pull such insane numbers?

Fire has some great potential and isnt bad. The logs are misleading because top players play frost. Thats the reason why e.g. a massive frost nerf would lead to better logs for arcane and fire.

- - - Updated - - -

Looks like your mage is the only one that doesn't suck at the game.

Yeah by that logic fire isnt bad, it is fire mages simply are worse players.

Stupid argument.

[Orwell7]

Yeah by that logic fire isnt bad, it is fire mages simply are worse players.

Stupid argument.

Yeah nowadays it's a cool thing to claim "facts" without checking what is real and what is inside your head.

Try to go on websites such as Warcraftlogs.com, and use your brain to check what is OP and what is not.
Here are the top 100 parses for Elisande, item levels 911-913.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...872&bracket=24

10 frost mages. The other 90 players are not frost mages. Therefore, not only frost mages are capable of doing insane damage on that fight.

Want Krosus?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...842&bracket=24

6 frost mages in top 100.


Maybe Trilliax is a more patchwerk-type fight for you?
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...867&bracket=24

Omg, it's 68 frost parses in top 100! Clearly needs a nerf!

Let's look at the hardest boss in the tier, ok?
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...866&bracket=24

Only 3 frost mages here. Oh and look THE one fire mage there! Fire needs a nerf too?


The point of all this is that you have to look at players on the same item level.
A Frost Mage in 910 gear doing a 95% ilvl parse is a better player than a 910 geared DH who is doing 50%.
I hope you can understand that.

If you can't, let me explain ilvl parses for you:
parsing at 95% means only 5% of similar geared players did better than you, and 95% did worse.
parsing at 50% means that 50% of similar geared players did better than you, and 50% did worse.

So parsing a 95% log with fire and being beaten by players who are doing 50-60% means that the SPEC is flawed.
But if your raid parses around 50-60% and your frost mage is doing 90%, that means he understands his spec a lot more than all of you.

[Deleted]

If in top 100 are 68 frosts and 1 fire, i do think that balancibg is kind of broken. With 20 specs ingame and many being very RNG dependant (some trinkets can make up to 100k dps difference) you will always see outliers. Just like you always see some outlaw rogue getting a 6buffs streak.

The special thing about frost is: it isnt padding metres witj AOE. When fire mages looked overall in EN, it was padding metres from AOE.

Frost and Affli get their ranks without padding metres:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...et=99&sample=1

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=100&sample=1

The reason there arent even more frost mages in top 100 is affliction locks. They got hotfixed/nerfed though.

I dont expect Frost nerfs to abilities. More likely they are going to fix double IL and retune ability damage. We are still early PTR.

Most mages expect a fix for frost anyways. It is like S2M shadows knowing something will happen.

Btw if they dont fix frost there is no way you are going to play fire in TOS. TOS doesnt have much AOE/cleave.

[stevenho]

Most mages expect a fix for frost anyways. It is like S2M shadows knowing something will happen.

Most people think you're delusional. How about that for a generalization?

S2M priests were topping pretty much everything before the nerfs rolled in.
Frost mages are topping 0-2 bosses out of 10.

[Zenfoldor]

Double IL is getting nerfed, I don't really have skin in the game, but there it is. Guaranteed.

Fire just got a significant buff for ST and AOE. Our AOE will be even better, but our ST is still gonna be about 7.5%(by my estimation) behind where it needs to be, for a middle of the pack ST caster(assuming we have belt/bracer/ring combo in some form, good trinkets, and 4p).

We will scale poorly, so a 10% ST buff for 7.2.5 would bring fire in line, and removing double IL would completely balance those two specs imho.

[Deleted]

Double IL is getting nerfed, I don't really have skin in the game, but there it is. Guaranteed.

Fire just got a significant buff for ST and AOE. Our AOE will be even better, but our ST is still gonna be about 7.5%(by my estimation) behind where it needs to be, for a middle of the pack ST caster(assuming we have belt/bracer/ring combo in some form, good trinkets, and 4p).

We will scale poorly, so a 10% ST buff for 7.2.5 would bring fire in line, and removing double IL would completely balance those two specs imho.

Yea Bring fire on the same level as frost then let fire outdps frost on aoe by huge numbers. Selfish troll.

[danieltang34]

Well i main a shadow priest and frost is nowhere close to s2m priest....
S2M was like top dps of almost every boss by far, and frost is just like tier 1 but nothing too op
In terms of difficulties, s2m has almost no rng and its all skills, executions, plannings and predictions
While frost is very rng heavy and you mostly react to procs, once u get used to it its not that hard

[Zardam]

Yea Bring fire on the same level as frost then let fire outdps frost on aoe by huge numbers. Selfish troll.

And then let frost out dps fire by huge numbers in cleave fights.

[stevenho]

If ST was equal, frost would do a little bit more than fire in 2 target stacked cleave and fire pulls ahead with 3 targets and more.
By a little bit more I mean 5%.
So yeah, you have no clue what you are talking about.

[fiestatastic]

Was the same with S2M and shadows. At the beginning of S2M only few players pulled insane numbers. But morw and more people closed the skill gap, top players rerolled to shadow and in the end, shadow was mandatory for highend raiding.

Lets be serious: many frost mages are currently bad. They perform bad because they dont understand the spec or make mistakes screwing their dps. Frost is pretty unforgiving at top level, just like S2M.

Frost mage with double IL is the new S2M. Mediocre players perform solid while top players pull insane numbers.

Balancing fire frost and arcane is impossible without nerfing frost.

Why would our frost mage ever stop playing frost when he can pull such insane numbers?

Fire has some great potential and isnt bad. The logs are misleading because top players play frost. Thats the reason why e.g. a massive frost nerf would lead to better logs for arcane and fire.

- - - Updated - - -



Yeah by that logic fire isnt bad, it is fire mages simply are worse players.

Stupid argument.

Replace skill with legendaries rng. It literally revolves around legendaries, which is why it's a poor design that has many people upset.

Mage still playing fire in my guild gets 90-95% parses now that he has BiS. Got grey and green parses every time prior. The difference in skill is that he cared A LOT and tried super hard to make 0 mistakes when he got grey parses, now he's happy and couldn't care less, doesn't want to waste gold on tomes and just runs the same talents without caring at all.

[Rhov]

Frost mage with double IL is the new S2M. Mediocre players perform solid while top players pull insane numbers.

Sorry but not even close. Frost mage requires huge amounts of RNG, ignore boss mechanics (aka melee range) to perform well while s2m is a total different story. Double IL with shimmer of course adds an interesting theme to the spec but still nothing extraordinary. Not to mention that without double IL, spec is almost "press everything that shines".

Check Rikh's recent try in HC Krosus, pulling 1.3m, where exactly is the hard part? Of course its a farm/easy boss, try doing this in Elisande mythic and you are fucked I guess. He is an excellent player, not doubting that, I am just reffering in the rotation part of the spec.

Fire has some great potential and isnt bad. The logs are misleading because top players play frost. Thats the reason why e.g. a massive frost nerf would lead to better logs for arcane and fire.

Agree on this. Fire can still be really decent in situations.

[Deleted]

So this thread just popped up in the forum previews and I was wondering ... what is on the horizon right now? Is that 6% buff already live? Anything else upcoming?

Also to everyone who reasons along the line of "Fire is great at AoE so they must be shit at ST":
AoE is a shit niche. [1] I cannot recall an encounter where my AoE was crucial and my group would not have been able to do the job without it - meaning I can increase my DPS in a very meaningless way, yay. [2] For how bad we're on ST, i don't think we're good enough on AoE. In many situations where there's smaller AoE mobs, the time it takes for Fire Mage AoE to really start rolling (You know, 6 seconds for LB to go off, casting enough to get a hot streak to cast Flamestrike...) is sometimes too long so that the melees have already basically killed everything with their instant-no-ramp-up-AoE/Cleave.
Our niche is shit, unsatisfying and we're not nearly outstanding enough in it to make up for how shitty we're on ST.

If you want Fire to have such a dumb niche, design the game in a way that makes AoE meaningful and nerf the AoE of specs that are not supposed to be primarily AoE damage dealers. The current design is just awful.

[Deleted]

Agree on this. Fire can still be really decent in situations.

In high health AoE or M+? lol

It has nothing to do with "logs being misleading because top players play frost". What a crock of shit. All of the mage specs are easy to play, Fire in ST is the easiest to play. There are few specs in the game that have so little to do lol

[danieltang34]

So this thread just popped up in the forum previews and I was wondering ... what is on the horizon right now? Is that 6% buff already live? Anything else upcoming?

Also to everyone who reasons along the line of "Fire is great at AoE so they must be shit at ST":
AoE is a shit niche. [1] I cannot recall an encounter where my AoE was crucial and my group would not have been able to do the job without it - meaning I can increase my DPS in a very meaningless way, yay. [2] For how bad we're on ST, i don't think we're good enough on AoE. In many situations where there's smaller AoE mobs, the time it takes for Fire Mage AoE to really start rolling (You know, 6 seconds for LB to go off, casting enough to get a hot streak to cast Flamestrike...) is sometimes too long so that the melees have already basically killed everything with their instant-no-ramp-up-AoE/Cleave.
Our niche is shit, unsatisfying and we're not nearly outstanding enough in it to make up for how shitty we're on ST.

If you want Fire to have such a dumb niche, design the game in a way that makes AoE meaningful and nerf the AoE of specs that are not supposed to be primarily AoE damage dealers. The current design is just awful.

while i dont think aoe is a shit niche, i do agree fire needs some ST buffs
as long as mythic+ is a thing, AoE capabilities will never be a shit niche
regardless, i dont think the current ST tuning makes sense as ST is what matters in raids
i mean my mains a spriest and its like, i cant even AoE and my ST is still bottom of the chart, even worse than fire mages <_< i just dont see why

[antelope591]

while i dont think aoe is a shit niche, i do agree fire needs some ST buffs
as long as mythic+ is a thing, AoE capabilities will never be a shit niche
regardless, i dont think the current ST tuning makes sense as ST is what matters in raids
i mean my mains a spriest and its like, i cant even AoE and my ST is still bottom of the chart, even worse than fire mages <_< i just dont see why

Except frost still does just as much AOE dmg in mythic+ unless you're talking about extremely rare situations like 10+ mobs. 3-5 mobs frost does just as much or more which is like 90% of pulls in mythic+. And even if we're talking about mass pulls other classes like DH do just as much while doing like 20% more in ST. So this AOE "niche" that people keep talking about is basically non existent.

[iNUKE]

Idk, but I've started leveling my mage as fire yesterday after i saw this thread, and been topping DPS in dungeons against people 3 and 5 levels above me.

And not only that, this is my 5th 110 and I've been running through content smooth as butter like i couldn't do with any other class before, Ret, fury, disc or even my first 110 a frost mage.

Not sure if it's the 6% but as of right now, fire mage is the most OP class I've played this expansion.

As an example i literally 1 shot mobs with half my 10 second rotation.. something i could never do with any other class I've played before.

[Deleted]

Idk, but I've started leveling my mage as fire yesterday after i saw this thread, and been topping DPS in dungeons against people 3 and 5 levels above me.

And not only that, this is my 5th 110 and I've been running through content smooth as butter like i couldn't do with any other class before, Ret, fury, disc or even my first 110 a frost mage.

Not sure if it's the 6% but as of right now, fire mage is the most OP class I've played this expansion.

As an example i literally 1 shot mobs with half my 10 second rotation.. something i could never do with any other class I've played before.

Nobody cares about your lowlevel experiences tho

[fiestatastic]

Idk, but I've started leveling my mage as fire yesterday after i saw this thread, and been topping DPS in dungeons against people 3 and 5 levels above me.

And not only that, this is my 5th 110 and I've been running through content smooth as butter like i couldn't do with any other class before, Ret, fury, disc or even my first 110 a frost mage.

Not sure if it's the 6% but as of right now, fire mage is the most OP class I've played this expansion.

As an example i literally 1 shot mobs with half my 10 second rotation.. something i could never do with any other class I've played before.

People 3-5 levels above you while leveling are underpowered due to scaling. Even more so if you started with HFC gear.

But also, yeah, killing trash is the one thing that fire mages are good at .... as has been said by many people on every page of this thread ..

[danieltang34]

Nobody cares about your lowlevel experiences tho

this^^^^^^

[D3athsting]

But also, yeah, killing trash is the one thing that fire mages are good at ...

Fire is a trash spec idd