Mythic Guldan Questions

[Chewtoy]

Hello!

There were a few Elisande questions threads, but didn't see a Guldan thread yet so figured I'd start it.

What were the biggest blocks to your progression?

Is there an ideal healing setup? We have two holy paladins, druid, shaman, disc priest at our disposal.

Phase 1
If you can only bring about 6 melee, was it better to spread out from the edge to the middle to make lines of empowered fel for less ranged movement (only people near target need to move), or was it better to stack on the wall and have all ranged move as a group?

Target is to push jailer before 2nd cage, and executioner after 2nd ability?

When is it best for dps to use their extra action button, or do you save that all the way to illidan?

Phase 2
Phase 2 looks alright, that evil 3rd eye spawn right after storm is just rude.

How high can rogue soakers get comfortably before you need others?

Seems everyone lusts now to just finish off Guldan before Illidan goes active.

Phase 3
Seems pretty consistent of parasites on foot, stun and kill.

Rogues alternate picking up tank soul, or is there a better way to do it?

Seems like the first add is moved to other side for the 3 soak, then 2nd add killed by first orb. Then 3 adds for the 2nd orb phase, and then CC and burn?

Ranged need to move on cast so they don't die to blades of death.

Tanking
Fel scythes - seems most common to just solo these with CD, is that the best approach? What's preventing you from just breaking them like on heroic?

We have a warrior (yes, I know) - I'm guessing I'd be better on Empowered Fel Bonds and adds in phase 3, although I hear it is doable doing the scythe soaking.

Seems pretty straight forward from a tank perspective after that. Any hidden oh shit moments I'm missing?




Any other big this is going to kill people things we're missing?

Thanks for any feedback or ideas!

Chew

[Dracodraco]

Hello!

There were a few Elisande questions threads, but didn't see a Guldan thread yet so figured I'd start it.

What were the biggest blocks to your progression?

Learning the timings of P1, followed by getting consistently good attempts. The harsh parts of both P1 and P2 comes at the end, so if you have to do those, you will spend many wipes ALMOST getting through then having someone die (especially on 5th eye during storm in P2).

There is however a fair few guilds (my own included) that's started to do enough damage to skip those "harsh" parts of the fight. That means pushing the boss in P1 before 3:57 (with the big add still alive for the transition), before the Empowered hellfire starts dropping, but after the first empowered eye. and pushing P2 before the fifth eye+storm combo (you want the boss to be around 13-14% without lust as he does the third Harvest if you want to accomplish this).

To add a bit to the above, there's two points where you might want to bloodlust in P2. For my guild, we push the boss at 4 minutes and skip some of P1 as well, so we use lust as soon as the winds are over in P2, around 4:15-4:20. This means 2 mins are up, meta's are up for our DHs, etc etc.
If you can't skip P1, but still want to skip P2 (which if you can only pick one, you totally should - fifth eye+storm is a fucking dreadful combo), you can lust right after third harvest as well (boss around 18-20%), under execute. Unsure of how it lines up with cds, as we never tried.

Is there an ideal healing setup? We have two holy paladins, druid, shaman, disc priest at our disposal.

Assuming all else is equal, I'd go double hpally, druid, shaman. Druid and shaman has the AOE power to get you through P1/2 with their cds, and the paladins will be able to spam tanks/soul soakers/parasite targets fairly freely. Disc priest only shines on the fight if you're lacking damage to push a phase without him. He can do decent output if he keeps atonement on the ranged in P1 for the hellfires, but for P2 he'll be playing catch-up (only 5x eye targets, gotta hope he has atonement on them before etc). P3 is largely irrelevant, but single target healing for tanks+paraistes is king.

Phase 1

If you can only bring about 6 melee, was it better to spread out from the edge to the middle to make lines of empowered fel for less ranged movement (only people near target need to move), or was it better to stack on the wall and have all ranged move as a group?

First off, if you can only bring 6 melee (this means 8 ranged), you should seriously consider having a good ranged player go on a melee alt. I'm not saying it isn't doable with a ton of range, but it's really, REALLY going to make your life harder than it has to be. There won't be enough space to spread very well, and ranged cannot DPS the parasites in P3 very well (if at all).
That said, you need to aim to have all your bonds land close together, so 3x can be soaked with an anti-damage zone from a healer. This means everyone stacked in the melee before bonds (which won't always be possible, there will be combos where eyes spawn right before bonds meaning you have to rely on healers/rogues to soak those people, or immunities).

Target is to push jailer before 2nd cage, and executioner after 2nd ability?

Jailer yes, executioner who gives a fuck he does nothing. Just cleave him. We aimed to have him dead by the fourth ability cast IIRC, because we push the boss super early so he doesn't get as much damage.

When is it best for dps to use their extra action button, or do you save that all the way to illidan?

The button goes poof after P1, just like in heroic. You use it right after the first bonds have been broken (they do fire damage), for the most optime + to burn the jailer.

Phase 2

Phase 2 looks alright, that evil 3rd eye spawn right after storm is just rude.

It is, and it's not even the biggest issue. You'll likely blow all cds trying to burn that eye far away from guldan, only to have him spawn another ~10 seconds later. Guess which eye ends up living forever? Yea, that second one. Plan around it, have some people save cds for it. Our ret can fit both into his crusade, our warriors both blast the first one with their draughts, and hunters trueshot the second one etc.

How high can rogue soakers get comfortably before you need others?

The stacks cap at 9, but they can keep soaking. The reason other people has to go in isn't that the rogues take too many stacks - it's just that there's too many souls for them to soak up in time. You'll want a few ranged assigned to step in before the third harvest to take some, or you won't get rid of them all in time. Possibly also the second if you mess up (which you will), and 100% for the fourth if you go for the slow tactic.

Seems everyone lusts now to just finish off Guldan before Illidan goes active.

100% NOT true. This is what everyone USED to do. Nowadays, you're more likely to see people use lust to skip phase mechanics, rather than burn the last 10% of guldan. It's really not a tight check to make, as long as you time it right (he has to around 12% after the third or fourth harvest for you to have time to do the push).

Phase 3

Seems pretty consistent of parasites on foot, stun and kill.

Correct. Rets can stun every wave with Wake of ashes, 6 second stun as well. They just need to be stacked tight.

Rogues alternate picking up tank soul, or is there a better way to do it?

Anyone can pick up the soul really, but you assign rogues because they're the least useful melee in P3 - they have shit tier AOE and no AOE stuns, so it doesn't matter if they're running out during parasites.

[quote]Seems like the first add is moved to other side for the 3 soak, then 2nd add killed by first orb. Then 3 adds for the 2nd orb phase, and then CC and burn?[/quote)

Correct. Four night orbs will spawn - first one your mage should be able to solo (with some spriest multidotting etc), so don't worry. Second one, again, him solo - it won't be needed so just kill it off. Third one will need A LOT of dps to burn it to make it in time, while an add and parasites are up at the same time. That's the worst part of P2; Making the orb dps check, the add dps check, and not fucking up parasites.
When you're empowering the 3x orbs, make sure the people that gets parasites right before he does the titan cast runs into the orbs instantly. This freezes the debuff in time, meaning they have time to run and stack on boss after the time stop. If they're stood outside till the last moment you'll likely have parasites out of control (plus, taking 1M dmg ticks from parasitic wounds+filling up orbs = ow).

Ranged need to move on cast so they don't die to blades of death.

You can live a seed, but yea, ideally you dodge them. Stay spread as well. No ranged in melee unless they have parasites (fuck spawning a seed on melee, that hurts like fuck).

Tanking

Fel scythes - seems most common to just solo these with CD, is that the best approach? What's preventing you from just breaking them like on heroic?

Nothing prevents it. Depending on your tanks you might want to. If your tank can solo them, it's just a lot simpler. Best approach is solo, but either is doable.

We have a warrior (yes, I know) - I'm guessing I'd be better on Empowered Fel Bonds and adds in phase 3, although I hear it is doable doing the scythe soaking.

Depends what your other tank is, but yes, he's an ideal target for the bitch-jobs.

Seems pretty straight forward from a tank perspective after that. Any hidden oh shit moments I'm missing?

Need to make sure you get the boss on the very edge for the Storm casts in P2, else you won't be able to stand in the wall and soak souls during it, meaning wipes due to harvest right after / not enough time to soak souls. P3 abilities actually hurt like a motherfucking BITCH.

Any other big this is going to kill people things we're missing?

Thanks for any feedback or ideas!

Chew

Someone's going to ninjapull. I guarantee it.
Also some ranged will stand in melee to pad on parasites, be targetted by them and stunned, then get eaten alive instantly, causing chaos and wipes. Especially with that many ranged.

[Chewtoy]

Thanks for all your help Dracodraco, it's always appreciated

[Hyper27]

Is there a way to get the 3rd eye to move towards the general direction of the raid quickly? We have a monk trenscendace in and taunt but its not really moving.

[zethh]

It seems only tank taunts are working now.

[Dracodraco]

For the eye to move reliably, you have to taunt (or otherwise gain aggro) AFTER it starts casting.
Keep in mind that if you have warriors with draught, it's ideal to not have it move to the boss and just use a portal to get back and forth for melee; If 2x warriors both Draught the eye on spawn point, they'll account for 50% of the damage needed to kill the eye. if it's stood on the boss, damage will split, and you need to have some people save cooldowns for the eye that spawns ~10 seconds later, or it'll live long enough to duplicate as well, so having warriors (potentially rets, as crusade lasts 30 seconds) burst the first, and everyone else the second is "ideal".

Of course, that's if your comp struggles with killing the eye; We had to optimise dps somewhat like the above.

[Fenryn]

It seems only tank taunts are working now.

Dps taunts most definitely do work, our fury warrior and ret paladin always repositioned the empowered eye for us.

Just keep in mind their hitbox is massive so you need to be quite a distance away for them to actually move. Also be aware that you can only move it once it's fully spawned and starts casting, if you taunt earlier it won't work.

[wrynil]

We only got 1 Rogue so I'm not sure what approach my guild should take to the 2nd phase soaking. Our melee setup is:

Rogue
Death Knight - Frost
Paladin
Demon Hunter
Demon Hunter
Monk
Warrior - Fury / arms

Any thoughts?

[Chewtoy]

We had a douse of first night of attempts.

Maybe I'm not understanding how he picks his bond targets, but there were multiple attempts last week where I'd have taunted, had aggro, he's punching me in the face and he'd pick the druid sending him flying off the edge.....any ideas what would cause this? Do you have to taunt well enough in advance that it's worn off and you have full aggro, or what's going on that may cause this behavior?

Also, we're trying to hit that empowered eye plus helfire, plus bonds check at 3:27ish but we're behind even with lust. If you see anything that stands out I'm all ears, my first inclination is healing being in deficit of what's needed but I'm starting to break it all down now https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ulty=5&wipes=1

Looks like we're taking a metric ton more damage from eyes...is this just due to more ranged and not spreading or are they living too long?

[bushes]

We only got 1 Rogue so I'm not sure what approach my guild should take to the 2nd phase soaking. Our melee setup is:

Rogue
Death Knight - Frost
Paladin
Demon Hunter
Demon Hunter
Monk
Warrior - Fury / arms

Any thoughts?

We also had one rogue for our kill. We just had Rogue and Tank (Brewmaster) for the first Well, then we added a healer (Paladin for the kill, but druid also works well) for every well after that.

[wrynil]

We also had one rogue for our kill. We just had Rogue and Tank (Brewmaster) for the first Well, then we added a healer (Paladin for the kill, but druid also works well) for every well after that.

ill consider this, thanks!

[Emancptr]

Maybe I'm not understanding how he picks his bond targets,

Target is picked when the cast for Empowered Bonds of Fel Starts. This means you have to taunt before the Empowered Bonds of Fel start casting.

but there were multiple attempts last week where I'd have taunted, had aggro, he's punching me in the face and he'd pick the druid sending him flying off the edge.....any ideas what would cause this? Do you have to taunt well enough in advance that it's worn off and you have full aggro, or what's going on that may cause this behavior?

I looked at all the attempts where you bear died to being knocked off. Every single time you're taunting after the Empowered Bonds of Fel have started casting. Sometimes, you're really damn close and you might think that you get it beforehand, but you're not.




I can't really tell if you're trying to solo fel scythes. You have the bear solo'ing some and then you're splitting others. If you have the bear solo the scythes the taunt timing is very easy. You (Empowered Fel Bonds tank) taunt as soon as a Fel Scythe goes out (after boss loses all his energy). This usually means you will tank the boss for 3-5 seconds before Bonds go out, which is very comfortable.

If you're not trying to solo fel scythes then you need to pay more attention to the Empowered Fel Bonds cast timer. Your entire job is to break on the other tank 2-3 seconds before Empowered Bonds goes out and then taunt and position for the Empowered Bonds.

Also, we're trying to hit that empowered eye plus helfire, plus bonds check at 3:27ish but we're behind even with lust.

No guild just pushing Mythic Gul'dan will make this push timing. Aim for pushing before the ~4:00 Empowered Hellfire and Empowered Eye Combo. Much more realistic goal (you will eventually get this with practice, but don't fixate on pushing before it while progressing). As you're progressing just push the boss whenever you push, but have that number in the back of your head once you start consistently getting to P2.

Looks like we're taking a metric ton more damage from eyes...is this just due to more ranged and not spreading or are they living too long?

You have a ton of range and they're cleaving all over the place with the eye. You need to utilize your space way more efficiently (have mobile range: mages/hunters/boomkins) closer to the boss/middle of the room. Then use their blinks to re-position for the Empowered Hellfire.

You had 120 Duplicates from Eye of Gul'dan in your 27 attempts, which is obviously more than you want. However, a lot of those duplicates do come after you've lost some players. You will definitely need more Eye damage from your locks and spriest to do well in this fight though (all of those classes do better once it's an empowered eye). It's just really important to emphasize that the only important mechanic about P1 and P2 Gul'dan is the Eye damage. You will have enough damage to push Gul'dan appropriately.

Just glanced at your bear tank and he should be playing/gearing more defensively (especially if he's soloing scythes). Mythic Gul'dan isn't a dps check anymore and your Gul'dan tank should never die (he dies a lot). Bristling Fur is strictly better (2 or 3x better for rage generation) than Blood Frenzy on this fight (T15 talent). No idea why he's taking Feral Affinity (T45 Talent) when he'll never be able to cat weave. Either take Balance for the better positioning/range or Resto for minor survivability increase.

Replace Luffa's Wrappings with any defensive legendary. I'm partial to the tank trinket on Gul'dan, but Prydaz/Eko are also good options. And he's just not casting enough Ironfur in general. He should be getting 2x the Ironfur casts that he is currently getting and using a little less MoU. If you're splitting the scythes sub 50% energy you're better off not using MoU and just using Ironfur to survive the melee swings. If you are soloing the scythes you should only have 1 MoU cast every ~20-25 seconds for the 100% scythe.

[Drish]

No guild just pushing Mythic Gul'dan will make this push timing. Aim for pushing before the ~4:00 Empowered Hellfire and Empowered Eye Combo. Much more realistic goal (you will eventually get this with practice, but don't fixate on pushing before it while progressing). As you're progressing just push the boss whenever you push, but have that number in the back of your head once you start consistently getting to P2.

Quoting this for emphasis. We were struggling in phase 1, then started to get to the end of it with the nasty combo, then started to get it DURING the hellfires (instant wipes), then started pushing with the eye, then started beating the eye. As people get the mechanics soaked into the backs of their heads, and theres less moments of "what should I currently be doing", the natural smoothing of movements/rotations/damage will occur.

Guldan is quite simply one of those bosses where you just have to pull it a bunch of times, and then suddenly you're hitting phase 2 and tweaking that part while coasting through phase 1. Think of it like a more complicated Odyn.

[Ebalina]

I have a question regardless p3.
And the soul sever or what ever its called.

What are rogues exactly supposed to do there to help the tank?
Or how do you guys deal with it?

[stross01]

I have a question regardless p3.
And the soul sever or what ever its called.

What are rogues exactly supposed to do there to help the tank?
Or how do you guys deal with it?

A large, pink version of the tank hit by it will spawn behind said tank. All you do is walk into it as soon as possible. You take minor damage and get a 30 second debuff that won't allow you to do it again.

As long as the pink version exists, you cannot heal that particular tank.

[Cheze]

has anyone had issues in phase 1 with raid members' clients seeming to de-sync from the server? Multiple times in our first two nights of attempts we've had players get into a weird situation where their client shows them moving around, casting etc. but the server (and thus everyone else) sees them standing still. These players get out of range messages if the boss moves out of range of their position on the server. The only fix we've found is having the affected people drop raid, disconnect from battle.net and log back in.

it seemed like the issue was somehow caused by the initial knockback and usually affected melee, but we had healers affected once or twice.

[Drish]

has anyone had issues in phase 1 with raid members' clients seeming to de-sync from the server? Multiple times in our first two nights of attempts we've had players get into a weird situation where their client shows them moving around, casting etc. but the server (and thus everyone else) sees them standing still. These players get out of range messages if the boss moves out of range of their position on the server. The only fix we've found is having the affected people drop raid, disconnect from battle.net and log back in.

it seemed like the issue was somehow caused by the initial knockback and usually affected melee, but we had healers affected once or twice.

We had several members affected by it on one of the nights as well. Something about immunities and jumping off the side was causing the desync they said. Hadn't heard of it starting mid-fight, but inbetween attempts and jumping off while performing any action. If you're aware of it happening mid attempt would you be able to post logs?

[Tojara]

I had it happen once on our first night of attempts, never happened again. The common factor seemed to be me being launched off the side of the platform in P1 during empowered bonds. Hasn't happened since, but I also don't get launched off the side like I use to either. I think it's a combination of taking a mass rez after you get launched off the side to be honest.

As far as soul sever goes you just have two people alternate between picking up the ghost behind the MT. Any melee can realistically do it, rogues are just ideal because they move fast.

Looking back the primary cause of wipes for us was simply P1. If we could do it again I would have just lusted shortly after the pull, trying to burn him before the 2:57 mark, as mentioned in this thread above. We actually did the empowered hellfire and bonds combo that happens after the 4 minute mark, and by the time we realized we could change it, we had become so familiar with it all that we just decided to keep going with what we had.

It was said earlier but I think at the very least every guild should aim to burn him before the four minute mark without lust, or lust on the pull and avoid the second big add in P1 altogether. Both are fine, but at this juncture I'd do whatever gives you the best success in P2, which means beating the fifth eye entirely. We planned around not having it (we lusted right when he gets settled in P2, mainly because not much is going on, and we have a terrible raid composition with 2x elemental shaman). If you need lust to beat the fifth eye, then you might want to go with the ~4 minute timing, if you don't, then lust on the pull and go with the sub 3 minute timing.

Like mentioned, we didn't deal with the fifth eye, but from glancing at videos it's a complete cluster fuck. For us P2 was way easier than P1 and P3 was obviously the easiest phase, only made difficult by the 8-9 minutes prior to getting to the phase.

I wouldn't save your second potion for the end of the fight though. If you get past the second visions with pretty much everybody alive, the boss is going to die. Boss died for us shortly after the third add spawns, and I think you get 4 adds after the second vision with some time after the 4th spawn before you pretty much implode. Basically what I'm saying, is use that second pot to help in the other phases.

[Cheze]

We had several members affected by it on one of the nights as well. Something about immunities and jumping off the side was causing the desync they said. Hadn't heard of it starting mid-fight, but inbetween attempts and jumping off while performing any action. If you're aware of it happening mid attempt would you be able to post logs?

For us, it seemed to be the result of the initial knockback. Our second night of attempts is here: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/TytYgfPWzLVwjG2Q but I don't know offhand which pulls were affected by it

[hasslehoof]

the bonds projectile can change direction mid air if you use blinks/portals etc. it always hits you and knocks you towards the direction it flies at you.