If Le Pen Wins

[Pengekaer]

Britain and France fall to nationalism while a rising eastern despot (Russia) threatens the one lone holdout of democracy and freedom in Europe (Germany). Yeah....I think we did stumble into the reverse-verse.

If Russia goes on to threaten Germany, then it's pretty much Germany's own fault. They've allowed themselves to end up in a position where they are so vulnerable. If Germany cared in the slightest about national security and cybersecurity, it could have easily made defenses far too strong for Russia to threaten conventionally or in cyberspace.
Also, if Russia directly threatens Germany, then Europe will certainly respond as they will not allow a new Eastern Block to form. We weren't in the position to stop the Russians from making an Eastern Block in 1945 (which is why we had to let it happen) but this is not the case in 2017.

[Acidbaron]

In my opinion a lot of people are inaccurately crediting the rise of both far left and right in France as an anti-european sentiment. While parts of each candidate their program, while both of them are speaking negatively about parts of the EU as it is now, taking into consideration the future talks between its member states of how it should look, Both these candidates are favored upon due to their status of being not part of the political class in power now, the class that has been hit by one corruption scandal after the other.

Ironically enough however, Le Penn is actually part of that group having investigations pending.

[DustWolf]

A Slavic federation would have to erase our nationalities forever. That way new generations won't favour any specific "nation" and develop love for the entire homeland.

I'm just saying if anybody tried anything against us, they'd be obliterated.

lol good luck with trying to get the ex-yu countries back together
we hate eachother

[Sunseeker]

If Russia goes on to threaten Germany, then it's pretty much Germany's own fault. They've allowed themselves to end up in a position where they are so vulnerable. If Germany cared in the slightest about national security and cybersecurity, it could have easily made defenses far too strong for Russia to threaten conventionally or in cyberspace.
Also, if Russia directly threatens Germany, then Europe will certainly respond as they will not allow a new Eastern Block to form. We weren't in the position to stop the Russians from making an Eastern Block in 1945 (which is why we had to let it happen) but this is not the case in 2017.

I don't think Russia is going to take the "brute force" approach, but I think we'll see a lot of Crimeas and East Ukraines over the next decade or so. Things that look like a revolution or a rebellion that just happen to always be consistently in favor of Russia.

In any case, I was mostly making a joke about how the situation would be nearly reversed from the previous two World Wars, with France and England being the holdouts of freedom against a conquering Germany and Russia.

[Deleted]

The real question is will Le Pen manage to get more votes than her father in the second round?

[chewie49]

and good riddance

[Damajin]

No they aren't. The goal of nationalism is to preserve a given culture by any means necessary. Nationalism leads to either isolationism or jingoism. Patriotism on the hand seeks to have the individual respect their culture and heritage. It's a very subtle difference.

You're very wrong. By any means necessary is the SOP of far uglier and insidious ideologies, and worse: no ideology. By any means necessary by implicit nature eradicates the Nationalist urge, as the Nationalist urge is a preservative, procreative one that isn't willing to go to the lengths and depths of a by any means necessary approach.

There's no difference between Nationalism and Patriotism and if you're unable to think on exactly why that is and come to terms with it, you might want to do that because it's just willful blindness to say otherwise especially as you can't be one without the other. They're hand in hand and absolutely synonymous.

[Independent voter]

I think the same thing that is giving Le Pen momentum is the same thing that gave Trump momentum, "globalization". People have lost jobs or fear of losing their jobs because of globalization.

I was reading an article the other day that said the real culprit isn't globalization so much as "automation", machines and software doing people's work. That might be true, I can't see what a government can do about either globalization or automation really, maybe find a way to train workers for the new reality?

[starlord]

i seen some speculation saying that this could potentially be the beginning of the end for western democracy & civilization, leading to the "globalist" far east taking over.

there are countless historical examples of why isolationism doesnt work yet people keep on beating that drum. if you dont maintain a place in world affairs, someone else will take that place for you and beat down the door you tried to close.

[Uselessrouge]

nope dont think so , and hope she wins

[Acidbaron]

i seen some speculation saying that this could potentially be the beginning of the end for western democracy & civilization, leading to the "globalist" far east taking over.

there are countless historical examples of why isolationism doesnt work yet people keep on beating that drum. if you dont maintain a place in world affairs, someone else will take that place for you and beat down the door you tried to close.

They resurface every that many years, even if they get some political foothold they tend to fail, it's easy to shout what's going wrong when you're in the majority it's a whole different game when you have to provide solutions. She also blames complex issues like most far right on external factors like Europe and immigrants, what means they can't provide good solutions. I really want to see her and try to "force" authority and order in the high immigrant communities around Paris and such, like that's currently working out so well to reduce crime

Worst case scenario, she'll sell her soul even more to daddy Putin and others, trying to dial back the sanctions, complicates things in Syria by siding with Russia and her new bestie Assad. Nationally i don't think she'll get done much regardless, France is know notoriously for when you don't have a large majority you'll have strikes going all over the nation crippling it and forcing the political figures their hands. What means she'll have to become a whole lot more moderate to get anything done and that will mean betray her base.

But yes, these things tend to happen in the same order time and time again, and they are less effective each time it happens.

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You're very wrong. By any means necessary is the SOP of far uglier and insidious ideologies, and worse: no ideology. By any means necessary by implicit nature eradicates the Nationalist urge, as the Nationalist urge is a preservative, procreative one that isn't willing to go to the lengths and depths of a by any means necessary approach.

There's no difference between Nationalism and Patriotism and if you're unable to think on exactly why that is and come to terms with it, you might want to do that because it's just willful blindness to say otherwise especially as you can't be one without the other. They're hand in hand and absolutely synonymous.

i'm really wondering where people on this forum are getting this from that they want to put one in a worse category than another, not like there are graduations of how nationalist or patriotic one is, it's like people see either completely none at all or go full Nazi mode, no in between.

[Deleted]

Well i feel like more and more EU countries are geting tired of being controlled by EU and they want to take their own decisions and rather focus on their country and people, no?

[Acidbaron]

I think the same thing that is giving Le Pen momentum is the same thing that gave Trump momentum, "globalization". People have lost jobs or fear of losing their jobs because of globalization.

I was reading an article the other day that said the real culprit isn't globalization so much as "automation", machines and software doing people's work. That might be true, I can't see what a government can do about either globalization or automation really, maybe find a way to train workers for the new reality?

Globalization is not bad, it gave us a lot, the problem with globalization is we let companies dictate how workers should be treated. We are allowing them to put a western worker with protection from laws and safety regulations to be put in direct competition with a child in a sweat shop from India.

Those companies on their turn make use of the constructs banks gladly set up for them to avoid as many taxes, all under the threat that if we dare to actually tax them on what they make, they'll leave. We also went from a western industry that was based on production and consumption, while we still have a lot of consumption a lot of what we make in the west is money and that's bad, we could do with a whole lot less big banks circling around our society like vultures. Somewhere i wondered what would have happened if we aided people effected by the bank crisis and not the banks themselves on the tax payer back.

Automation isn't on that level yet that it actually provides that much of a hassle, it's still very much slowed down. If it came full circle today and we didn't have new social constructs in place like a decent income for all, prepare to see a social bloodbath with all the crap that comes with it.

[Rennadrel]

Best customer protection in the world.
Best worker laws in the world.

To name two big ones.

How is it not in their interest?
You do need an union, since the growth is based on free traffic of goods and people.

From a political perspective, the union does not support all political stances or the needs of all nations equally. How much has the EU done to grow all the still poor Eastern Europe countries? You do realize that many wind up migrating to other countries for better opportunities because they just don't exist or aren't abundant enough, right?

[Fojos]

i seen some speculation saying that this could potentially be the beginning of the end for western democracy & civilization, leading to the "globalist" far east taking over.

there are countless historical examples of why isolationism doesnt work yet people keep on beating that drum. if you dont maintain a place in world affairs, someone else will take that place for you and beat down the door you tried to close.

You apparently don't read history. Whenever cultures mixed or unities opened up, one culture ALWAYS takes over and kills the other. If we don't remove the islamic influence, this is what will happen.

Hopefully she wins, it's about time we destroy the globalist neoliberal union.

[Mafic]

I voted no.

The original intention of the EU was economic partnership and for collaboration on science and industry. Telling sovereign nations what to do with their own country regarding refugees was the nail in the coffin for an EU super power.

[Deleted]

You apparently don't read history. Whenever cultures mixed or unities opened up, one culture ALWAYS takes over and kills the other. If we don't remove the islamic influence, this is what will happen.

So by me being in sweden means that either me or swedes are at threat of destruction because our cultures are different? No.

[Acidbaron]

From a political perspective, the union does not support all political stances or the needs of all nations equally. How much has the EU done to grow all the still poor Eastern Europe countries? You do realize that many wind up migrating to other countries for better opportunities because they just don't exist or aren't abundant enough, right?

Look up the subsidies those nations have received to support their growth. Secondly a lot of the money earned by migrant workers from the east goes back home what support locally economies. I think you're greatly underestimating such things.

Eastern european nations are showing good growth, if my grand father grew up in Slovenian today he would have not moved. Those nations were hit hard before and you can't possibly make the claim they aren't better off now.

From a political perspective they are all heavy conservative there is also plenty of corruption and it's on the decline but it's still very much rooted in from those sovjet days and to no surprise where corruption is being tackled hard such as Romania those countries are seeing good growth figures annually.

[Masoner]

Breaking up the EU would be a great victory for Russia and ISIS. I mean hell, all ISIS had to do was send a few suicide attackers in and bam there you go terror created and EU destroyed.

People love getting played I guess.

Isis is not the threat, it's the religion of Islam. It does NOT work with in westernized countries. It never has and it never will.


Westernized countries like Sweden think they are above any and all things, the issue is that Islam is such a deadly and brutal thing it commands it's followers to murder anyone and any where, today or tomorrow...

It's better for the EU to be gone than for these countries to be taken over by Islam.

[Acidbaron]

You apparently don't read history. Whenever cultures mixed or unities opened up, one culture ALWAYS takes over and kills the other. If we don't remove the islamic influence, this is what will happen.

Hopefully she wins, it's about time we destroy the globalist neoliberal union.

So how come the US is not an absolute waste land, considering it has the highest mix of cultures?