Flying Next Expack

[SirCowdog]

Ok, firstly I disagree with OP and I think that there shouldn't be flying. I think the original introduction of flying sounded cool but in hindsight was a bad move.

Why was it a bad move? Explain please.

That being said, I can see how it's a real pain to have a feature locked and gated and almost taken away from you. But, I still think that's the better course of action.

Again: why do you think that way? Is it just because Blizzard said so, or is there another reason?

Finally, is flying significant enough for you to value it over every other part of the expansion?

It effects how you interact with almost every aspect of the open world. And for some players represents countless hours of mount farming. I'd say that's pretty important.

[Wilfire]

No fly no buy

[Stardrift]

Blizz is lazy for with holding flying. Blizz is also lazy for scaling NPCs at max level instead of putting in the work to reduce crazy item level jumps.

What lol
Blizz isn't lazy for that, they put in a ton of work on the ground and want players to actually experience it, not mindlessly fly over it all to an objective.
And I don't know if you haven't noticed, but they've always made enemies that come from a patch stronger than the base expansion enemies. Scaling them to your ilvl is just a different way of going about that, especially if they wanna make the base content stay relative.
You should quit the game if you play only to fucking fly. Don't need you plaguing the game like that. You idiots already drowned out the complaints about a lack of content in WoD with your cries about flying.

[Schmilblick]

TBH I hope they just dont add it in at all. I know they will with pathfinder but I can dream.

Keep dreaming.

[randomnamegenerator16]

Where is the option "flying as late as possible in the expansion life cycle" in that poll?

[TheRightWay]

If not having to work for flying is enough to make you leave the game... stop playing

[-Joker-]

So 92% will either buy it either way, or as long as there is flight at some point. Guess the 8% vocal minority is the same >10% group that whined in WoD and Legion, and will certainly whine with the South Seas expac.

[Trumpcat]

Pathfinder achievement is ok, but don't gate it behind 8 months.

Either way it's something totally unrelated to my enjoyment of the game.

[-Joker-]

Pathfinder achievement is ok, but don't gate it behind 8 months.

Given that it is a 24 month expac, I think it should be gated to 12 months. But that's just me.

[Darkeon]

I'm fine with doing stuff to unlock it and doing so after the initial release time-frame.
I'm not fine with having to do nearly everything that there is to be done and unlocking it by the end of the expansion.

[Thage]

Odds are they'll do Pathfinder achievements again as it seems to be the middle ground between the devs who don't want any flight at all, and the devs who want to let us fly once the player base typically shifts into 'efficiency mode' 5-6 months after launch (when most consistent players have hit level cap and are focused on getting from A to B). So this way you do everything the way the devs intended on one character so you can cruise in efficiency mode on alts, both camps are relatively pacified, and players have a tangible reason to do stuff in the world rather than only focus on the most efficient AP gains and item drops from world quests.

And I'm cool with that, I just wish they'd make it a thing you can work on and unlock from launch day and add in new Pathfinding for newly-implemented zones (for example, with the Broken Isles, 7.0 content could be unlocked for flight in 7.0/7.1 at the latest, and in 7.2 the lore reason for why you can't fly on the Shore before completing Pathfinder pt. 2 is that the Legion has air superiority that you have to break as part of the Legionfall questline which unlocks in this hypothetical scenario based on your rep rather than a hard time-gate).

[Deleted]

Flying at Max level or nothing

[Dhrizzle]

Forcing player to make half of location trip back and forth only to get next quest, that sends you to exactly the same location - is time gating and artificial content stretching.

It's neither of those things, those are just random buzz-phrases you're repeating without thinking about what they mean or how they might apply to the game.

And "ground-friendly" means making locations, that:
1) Has direct safe roads
2) Large enough quest zones to have enough mobs/items for all players
3) Several routes to approach this zones
3) Lower density of mobs, so 100500 mobs don't constantly aggro, while you fighting with other mobs
4) Lower respawn rate, so mobs don't respawn on the top of you head
5) No elites/fat mobs/large mob packs, that have to be avoided
6) No artificial obstacles, like 1m high ridges, you can't climb back, if you fall from, and have to ride around half of location instead
7) Etc.

If that's your definition of ground-friendly then Vanilla was definitely not ground-friendly, especially when you consider how most players were either on foot or a 60% non-epic mount, mobs were more dangerous with a higher chance to aggro and you couldn't share tags with player you weren't grouped with.

As you can see, this two are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AND UNRELATED THINGS. Both can be adjusted separately. Claiming opposite = ignoring facts and using strawman fallacy.

What are you actually talking about here?

What I remember about Vanilla-TBC-WotLK - is that prior to Cata I don't remember any problems with quests, except may be quests with bosses and several badly designed quests. And you should know, that I was playing game on a 2nd day after release of WotLK. On PVP server. On overpopulated PVP server. Because almost all servers were overpopulated on winter holydays after release of WotLK.

Then you don't remember very well because it was very common for Vanilla quest areas to be camped even a year into the expansion, and from your earlier list you'd probably also have problems with all the trees/cliffs that blocked direct routes and wandering elites or group-orientated quests to kill elite mobs. You also seem to have forgotten the start of TBC where both factions were funneled into one zone and the tweaks to respawn were so crazy mobs could respawn before you'd even killed them.

Anyway. No matter, if Wow had problems with competition or not in the past. Wow has them now. And they should be: 1) Fixed 2) Flying should be enabled to avoid them.

What you're describing as a problem is a consequence of sharing the open world with other players, and for many people it's a big part of why we play MMOs in the first place. Besides a lot of the inconvenience was removed by allowing players to share tags with members of the same faction (or any other players in the case of some elites or rares.)

Simply because, as I've already said, what flying allows me to do: if I see other player doing some quest - I don't want to spoil my game and his game via trying to pull things out of his hands - I just use flying to find unoccupied spot, where I will be able to peacefully do my stuff without any stress or jerking. Blizzard should either fix outdoor quests to be like this without flying or just enable flying. As simple, as that.

Then do what I've done over the last 10+ years. If someone is killing your quest mobs and you can't share tags for whatever reason just run past him, throw a couple of DoTs or instant attacks on his target and then select your own to attack. 9 times out of 10 when I've done that we end up alternating tags and helping each other out, usually with a /wave or /bye at the end. If they don't seem cooperative then go in a different direction, and if they seem to be purposefully antagonistic either race them for mobs or have a little patience and just wait a few minutes for them to finish.

I'm not going to argue your earlier points before this quote, because you're just expressing your own personal playstyle, which is definitely not representative of the majority of players. I think you're the only person across any forum, game review, or video, that I've EVER heard express approval for D3's vanilla loot system. Even Blizzard didn't think their system was good.

If you never heard anyone being fine with the old loot system you probably didn't follow the conversation on the official forums much, it was usually pretty tedious;
"I hate the AH it takes away the joy of finding loot."
"Why not just use self-found loot then?"
"It's not fun when the AH is quicker and just a click away."

And all your arguments are doing is just confirming everything that's being said about players choosing to stick with their ground mount if they enjoy playing that way, even when it's less efficient. Because that's exactly what you apparently did in D3 if I'm to believe that you avoided using the AH: You chose the playstyle you enjoyed, even when it wasn't optimal.

Yes I did, but lots of people ignored that option because the AH was such an obvious and convenient way to get high-end loot, it seemed silly to have that system and not use it, which is why Blizzard decided to remove the AHs altogether instead of just expecting players to take the more difficult way to get rewards.

Does everyone enjoy grinding? You're making the assumption that everyone gets the same satisfaction from the same parts of the game. I guarantee you that isn't the case, especially when your options are "Use the AH or spend 10 times as much time being irritated and annoyed by grinding that you don't even enjoy in the first place".

Again, Blizzard saw the flaw with their design and fixed it so that the loot needed to reach a chosen playstyle more quickly was baked into the game. They even went as far as to add the free set bags at the beginning of each season. Why aren't they doing the same in WoW instead of just delaying the issue with Pathfinder? Instead of actually fixing the core of the problem, they just tried to pretend it didn't exist for 8 months.

I assume most people who play dungeon crawlers enjoy grinding, otherwise why would they be playing a genre where the object is to kill monsters to get loot to kill harder monsters to get better loot...?

Except that now the devs are in a position where they either have to design around players having flight(which is opposed to the claims that it's against how they want the game to work), or they have to look at denying flight AGAIN, which will not go over well with the players after they've already put up with Pathfinder this long.

I could see Blizzard putting their ideas together to design a zone around flying every expansion or every other expansion, I don't expect Argus to have flight (despite the threat of forum tears) but if that is the way they go it's not totally unexpected. After all whilst most of the flying content I feel would have been better if they had put in the extra effort to make it more suitable for ground-play, there are some zones (Stormpeaks, Vash'jir and to a lesser extent Deepholme) that I've always maintained used flying well. It's just that having too much flying content doesn't really work with the swords-and-sorcery/Tolkienesque fantasy theme or WoW's game engine.

Bake them into flying mounts. Have mounts use the vehicle interface, and only start with limited vertical abilities such as slow-fall. Then as objectives and achievements are completed through the normal course of the content releases, more of the gimmicks get added to the vehicle's toolbar. Cooldowns on them get reduced as the game progresses, eventually leading to full-strength flight. It would seem more streamlined, and would allow for a better presentation of the abilities while giving players the feeling of keeping their flying mounts. While at the same time also delaying true flying until later in the expansion when it supposedly doesn't matter any more.

I'm not sure the "pro-flight" crowd would really be pleased if their beloved dragons can only remember how to glide, nor would the "stuck on root/can't avoid mobs" crowd be happy with Blizz giving the illusion of flying mounts when there'd be no more advantages than the current crop of toys do.

And why is that actually a problem? Isn't one of the main issues with flight how powerful it is? Isn't one of the primary solutions for that problem to change how flying works so it more closely resembles actual real-life flying?

No, the primary solution is to restrict flight until later in the expansion. Trying to turn WoW into some sort of flight-simulator is basically asking for a different game.

By putting these types of control limitations on the movement of flight it would solve many of the supposed problems that flying creates for the devs, while simultaneously creating more opportunities for jump-puzzle and exploration style gameplay.

Are you talking about the toys/gimmicks again? Because those exist in-game currently and I don't think the frothing masses would be appeased if they remained practically identical but used the skins of collected mounts.

- - - Updated - - -

Given that it is a 24 month expac, I think it should be gated to 12 months. But that's just me.

I think it should be gated until the last piece of content is added to the major landmass of the expansion, unless they have some good ideas for flight-based content in which case it should be introduced in time for that.

[SirCowdog]

So 92% will either buy it either way, or as long as there is flight at some point. Guess the 8% vocal minority is the same >10% group that whined in WoD and Legion, and will certainly whine with the South Seas expac.

Right...because a poll that covers ~500 people is really REALLY a good representation of the entire customer base of WoW? This isn't even a large portion of forums posters. What a joke!

- - - Updated - - -

If you never heard anyone being fine with the old loot system you probably didn't follow the conversation on the official forums much, it was usually pretty tedious;
"I hate the AH it takes away the joy of finding loot."
"Why not just use self-found loot then?"
"It's not fun when the AH is quicker and just a click away."

Those are all complaints about the loot system, not approval. And what did Blizzard do? They fixed the source of the problem: The loot system.

Now, I'll grant that the AH was part of the equation that made the vanilla D3 loot system so bad. But in today's D3? The Ah would just be one more tool to customize gameplay, no different than the cube, crafting, or Kadala. Especially now that Blizzard is going to introduce challenge rifts where the gear is all equalized. The AH would have even less of a negative effect.

Yes I did, but lots of people ignored that option because the AH was such an obvious and convenient way to get high-end loot, it seemed silly to have that system and not use it, which is why Blizzard decided to remove the AHs altogether instead of just expecting players to take the more difficult way to get rewards.

So those people valued efficiency over playing the slow way. Seems to me that even if they said they wanted to enjoy grinding, they really didn't. Regardless, taking away all options and then attempting to claim that whatever is left is the best is just being disingenuous.

You'll note that my stance on flying is to make the decision between flying or ground more of an equal, real choice. Simply turning off one or the other isn't a good solution.

I assume most people who play dungeon crawlers enjoy grinding, otherwise why would they be playing a genre where the object is to kill monsters to get loot to kill harder monsters to get better loot...?

Then stop making assumptions! Some people play for the challenge of hardcore mode. Some people play for the race at the beginning of each season. Some people enjoy finding all the different builds. Other people play for raw efficiency.

When you try to stereotype people and oversimplify the issue, that's where you run into problems. Again, I want to point out that my opinion is that flying needs to be a real choice. Simply removing all other options but the ground game doesn't actually make the game better. It just makes it better for people who like ground-only. Maybe that would be fine if it was a completely new game, but it's not. WoW has a history of invested players and gameplay that includes flight. Flight is part of what WoW is. Blizzard would be better off addressing that instead of trying to ignore it.

I could see Blizzard putting their ideas together to design a zone around flying every expansion or every other expansion, I don't expect Argus to have flight (despite the threat of forum tears) but if that is the way they go it's not totally unexpected. After all whilst most of the flying content I feel would have been better if they had put in the extra effort to make it more suitable for ground-play, there are some zones (Stormpeaks, Vash'jir and to a lesser extent Deepholme) that I've always maintained used flying well. It's just that having too much flying content doesn't really work with the swords-and-sorcery/Tolkienesque fantasy theme or WoW's game engine.

Bullshit!

At every turn the players are confronted with the context of flying. Dalaran, the capitol fucking city of the expansion is a floating island. The opening trailer for Legion starts with the horde and alliance assaulting from Airships. The Legion shows up in flying spaceships. WoW has never been a relatively low fantasy genre like the Tolkien works. We have goblins in flying power armor. Space Goats that warped from another dimention in a ship powered by magic crystals. Extra-dimensional flaming demons falling from the sky. Gnomes who have irradiated their city due to mis-use of technology. Old gods who screw with the sanity of people in an Lovecraftian way.

This idea that flight doesn't suit WoW is a creation of pure bullshit in order to push the "experiment" of No-Flying in WoD, and has continued to vomit and bleed over into Legion. GTFO with this poor, half-assed attempt to justify it! There are PLENTY of ways to incorporate flying into the actual gameplay itself, without even requiring Blizzard to come up with any new mechanics or technology.

I'm not sure the "pro-flight" crowd would really be pleased if their beloved dragons can only remember how to glide, nor would the "stuck on root/can't avoid mobs" crowd be happy with Blizz giving the illusion of flying mounts when there'd be no more advantages than the current crop of toys do.

No, the primary solution is to restrict flight until later in the expansion. Trying to turn WoW into some sort of flight-simulator is basically asking for a different game.

You are pathologically unable to agree with anything I suggest, aren't you? Even when it involves converting flight into the very system that Legion uses right now. Gimmick tools at launch, with true flying delayed until later, leaving Blizzard's design completely unchanged.

Basically you're just reaching for excuses to not admit I might have legitimate arguments. At this point you're just hating on flight without any logical reason. Every time I suggest a way to solve or mitigate the issue, you create some weak, halfassed excuse as to why you think it wouldn't work. I'm done with you.

[Kyux]

Why was it a bad move? Explain please.


Again: why do you think that way? Is it just because Blizzard said so, or is there another reason?


It effects how you interact with almost every aspect of the open world. And for some players represents countless hours of mount farming. I'd say that's pretty important.

Firstly, fair enough that you value flying, or some people value flying, that much. Each to their own and that's OK.

I think flying was a bad move for a few reasons. It makes quests much easier, especially as a druid like myself, you can collect items without fighting enemies. I would like a game with slightly more challenge in it. And yes, I could just not fly but that is taking a proactive approach to making the game how I want it instead of the company making it like that. Anyway.

I also think that with flying people skip the zones which have been worked on and designed. It's a lot of wasted hours and work. However, this is different once you spend months working to get flying as in WoD and Legion. I prefer that approach as a compromise.

I think flying leads to less population on the ground to interact with. It makes the world feel more empty because there are no travelling people. That's less people to fight and less people to ask for help when you see them near a quest you want help on.

Finally, and the biggest one I think, is that it speeds up the game. It speeds up travel and questing. This is a whole other kettle of fish I could get into, but I think that the game should be much slower. Say Blizzard spends 1 year making an expansion (arbitrary figure). Then people could consume and complete that content in 3 weeks with heirlooms, dungeon grinding, and flying to speed it up. Or you increase exp required, remove heirloom exp bonuses, and flying to make it take longer to level and complete stuff. Then that work is consumed over, say, 6 months. Blizzard has more time to work on future content before it is demanded.

But this was a question about flying. If the game is slowed down, and people have to travel at 100% speed and through mobs, then the consumed slower. Maybe you can only do 6 quests before dinner instead of 10. Maybe you can't get to that invasion in Stormheim you need for the achievement before you need to go to work. With flying you would get through content faster.

I realise now that we have flying it is a pain to have it taken away and it makes it feel like a chore. That's why it was a mistake to add it. If we never had flying we would never miss it. "You don't know what you got 'till it's gone", that kind of idea. Now we have flying it is an issue. If we never had it we wouldn't be having this debate.

As I said at the start, each to their own. It's cool if you prefer having flying. I appreciate it, but believe the game would have been better without it's introduction.

[Lei]

Flying after I reached max level on main and done all starter main content (explore, story, reputations, you name it). I mean without 10-20 weeks of gating.
Can't find this in the poll. :/
I would be fine with only my main getting it at that point, and enabling it on alts after firs patch hits or something, so precious material prices will remain more or less intact.

[SirCowdog]

It makes quests much easier, especially as a druid like myself, you can collect items without fighting enemies. I would like a game with slightly more challenge in it.

So would you be open to the idea of harder quests rather than the removal of flight? Or quest content that actually presented challenges and obstacles to to a flying player?

I also think that with flying people skip the zones which have been worked on and designed. It's a lot of wasted hours and work. However, this is different once you spend months working to get flying as in WoD and Legion. I prefer that approach as a compromise.

That's one of the problems I conceded to. Although it has more aspects to it than many people are generally aware of.

First is how much raw power flying in its current form has. Greater speed, and unlimited ability to move are hard to design around. It's not impossible, just harder to do. Flight needs to have its core design changed if it's ever going to have a better place in the design of WoW.

But there's also the flaw of dropping something as powerful as flight into content that wasn't designed for it. Yes, Blizzard spent a lot of time and care creating the game world, but they did so with the arrogance that everyone MUST appreciate it from only the perspective they approve of, despite knowing that players have had, and still want, the ability to fly.

IMO the fault is as much at the feet of the ground-only design as it is with flight. And I think there are better ways to compromise than effectively telling players: "Fuck you, play our way for 8 months". Or if that's too blunt, then: "Our artistic vision is more important than your fun".

And it leaves Blizzard in the position of having to now deal with the fact that players have flight again. What about all the hard work and effort they put into future content releases? Are those not as important as the launch content? Will it have less value now that players can fly?

I think flying leads to less population on the ground to interact with. It makes the world feel more empty because there are no travelling people. That's less people to fight and less people to ask for help when you see them near a quest you want help on.

I actually have to disagree with this part. If there is a reason for players to gather, then it won't matter if they're flying or not. We see it all the time during the invasion events, and at world quests. The lack of encountering players out in the world is more a result of the lack of reasons to be out in most of the world. Everything is crammed into very small areas around quest objectives. There's very little reason to be wandering around exploring, or running into other players.

And even if flight was causing this, what about people sitting around town then teleporting directly to dungeons? Or Battlegrounds? Or different phases of the game? Should we remove those because they keep you from running into random people in the world?

Finally, and the biggest one I think, is that it speeds up the game. It speeds up travel and questing. This is a whole other kettle of fish I could get into, but I think that the game should be much slower. Say Blizzard spends 1 year making an expansion (arbitrary figure). Then people could consume and complete that content in 3 weeks with heirlooms, dungeon grinding, and flying to speed it up. Or you increase exp required, remove heirloom exp bonuses, and flying to make it take longer to level and complete stuff. Then that work is consumed over, say, 6 months. Blizzard has more time to work on future content before it is demanded.

But this was a question about flying. If the game is slowed down, and people have to travel at 100% speed and through mobs, then the consumed slower. Maybe you can only do 6 quests before dinner instead of 10. Maybe you can't get to that invasion in Stormheim you need for the achievement before you need to go to work. With flying you would get through content faster.

I tend to agree that the raw speed of flying is a problem. That goes into what I said earlier about the current design of flying needs to change. But without completely overhauling how flight works(most likely into the vehicle system), even just setting ground mounts and flying mounts to the same 150% speed would go a long way.

I realise now that we have flying it is a pain to have it taken away and it makes it feel like a chore. That's why it was a mistake to add it. If we never had flying we would never miss it. "You don't know what you got 'till it's gone", that kind of idea. Now we have flying it is an issue. If we never had it we wouldn't be having this debate.

As I said at the start, each to their own. It's cool if you prefer having flying. I appreciate it, but believe the game would have been better without it's introduction.

I'm not sure it's fair to say the game would have been better without it. There's no way to know if WoW would have remained as popular without the influence of Flying or not. That's just a statement that's impossible to prove. But what we CAN say with certainty is that IF flying is going to be part of the game going forward, then Blizzard needs to actually put in the work to make it viable. If they're not going to get rid of it entirely, they should buckle down and give it the same care and attention they do to other parts of the game.

[WowIsDead64]

It's neither of those things, those are just random buzz-phrases you're repeating without thinking about what they mean or how they might apply to the game.

If that's your definition of ground-friendly then Vanilla was definitely not ground-friendly, especially when you consider how most players were either on foot or a 60% non-epic mount, mobs were more dangerous with a higher chance to aggro and you couldn't share tags with player you weren't grouped with.

What are you actually talking about here?

Then you don't remember very well because it was very common for Vanilla quest areas to be camped even a year into the expansion, and from your earlier list you'd probably also have problems with all the trees/cliffs that blocked direct routes and wandering elites or group-orientated quests to kill elite mobs. You also seem to have forgotten the start of TBC where both factions were funneled into one zone and the tweaks to respawn were so crazy mobs could respawn before you'd even killed them.

You should understand, that simply ignoring and dismissing arguments of other players without proving any counter arguments or proofs - is bad thing and smells like a trolling. If you know other definitions of such things, as "time gating" and "ground-friendly content", then, please, provide them. If you think, that they're more right, than my ones - then, please, prove it. Don't just tell "You're wrong and I'm right".

My definition is simple. I don't care, how "lazy" content design is. I don't care about amount of time/effort, I need to invest into it, i.e. about slow vs fast and easy vs hard. For me "ground-friendly" - is about annoyance vs enjoyment. If for you slow + hard = annoying and fast + easy = enjoyable - then it's only your subjective opinion. You're just lazy player. For me this things are completely unrelated and lay in different planes. For me other things are annoying and killing my immersion. Things, that annoy me - are things, that turn RPG into Super Mario Bros like arcade. This includes claustrophobic design of locations and things, that are being implemented to compensate problems, this design brings - such as artificially high mob densities and respawn rates.

[Kyux]

So would you be open to the idea of harder quests rather than the removal of flight? Or quest content that actually presented challenges and obstacles to to a flying player?




That's one of the problems I conceded to. Although it has more aspects to it than many people are generally aware of.

First is how much raw power flying in its current form has. Greater speed, and unlimited ability to move are hard to design around. It's not impossible, just harder to do. Flight needs to have its core design changed if it's ever going to have a better place in the design of WoW.

But there's also the flaw of dropping something as powerful as flight into content that wasn't designed for it. Yes, Blizzard spent a lot of time and care creating the game world, but they did so with the arrogance that everyone MUST appreciate it from only the perspective they approve of, despite knowing that players have had, and still want, the ability to fly.

IMO the fault is as much at the feet of the ground-only design as it is with flight. And I think there are better ways to compromise than effectively telling players: "Fuck you, play our way for 8 months". Or if that's too blunt, then: "Our artistic vision is more important than your fun".

And it leaves Blizzard in the position of having to now deal with the fact that players have flight again. What about all the hard work and effort they put into future content releases? Are those not as important as the launch content? Will it have less value now that players can fly?




I actually have to disagree with this part. If there is a reason for players to gather, then it won't matter if they're flying or not. We see it all the time during the invasion events, and at world quests. The lack of encountering players out in the world is more a result of the lack of reasons to be out in most of the world. Everything is crammed into very small areas around quest objectives. There's very little reason to be wandering around exploring, or running into other players.

And even if flight was causing this, what about people sitting around town then teleporting directly to dungeons? Or Battlegrounds? Or different phases of the game? Should we remove those because they keep you from running into random people in the world?




I tend to agree that the raw speed of flying is a problem. That goes into what I said earlier about the current design of flying needs to change. But without completely overhauling how flight works(most likely into the vehicle system), even just setting ground mounts and flying mounts to the same 150% speed would go a long way.



I'm not sure it's fair to say the game would have been better without it. There's no way to know if WoW would have remained as popular without the influence of Flying or not. That's just a statement that's impossible to prove. But what we CAN say with certainty is that IF flying is going to be part of the game going forward, then Blizzard needs to actually put in the work to make it viable. If they're not going to get rid of it entirely, they should buckle down and give it the same care and attention they do to other parts of the game.

Yes, I would support harder quests and obstacles to flying players like you suggested. I think that would be a great compromise.

As for the portals and teleports to dungeons etc, yes I think they should be removed, or should not have been added. Again for the same reasons. If you need to do X many dungeons for some reason, but it takes 15 minutes to get there, then you'll get less done and so the content is spread out and consumed slower. Although, like flying, it would be difficult to remove them now.

You're right that I can't say the game would be better without flying having been introduced. I can't know that. I think it probably would have been, but nobody can know for sure.

Fair point about running into people. I didn't really think about that. There isn't really a reason to travel aimlessly anyway.

[Segus1992]

Kiddos, that's all ^^

The thread starting post is incredibly childish, which is why it warrants childish responses. Why is it that it's always childish people that like calling others kids?

On topic, what you got in Legion is what's going to happen from now on if not more restrictive. Blizzard sees flying as a mistake.