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  1. #101
    I am Murloc! Tomana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazkaldar View Post
    That is true, but I firmly believe the same demographic of customers excist to the same extend as when wow first came out. It's just not a game for casual, bad players, rpg, or the like, that once attracted many.
    The shift in gaming devices alone changed a lot of things, as the explosion of games on mobile phones attests. When children have a phone (or a tablet) from a very early age, they won't suddenly turn to PC just because. Not to mention, again, the commitment problem. I prefer to call it "You mean I have to spend a month to level up a character before I can start playing with most people? Screw that, I'm gonna play angry birds instead".

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazkaldar View Post
    Sadly, many MMORPGS focus on 1) making a unique universe that's hard to relate to, 2) copy as many good things from wow - such as focus on raid and endgame, while forgetting the adventure of such a game.
    You mean companies should take risks and not make carbon copies of existing products? Yeesh, shareholders will eat you alive for that. You're much better off publishing "Call of Duty volume 135" or "Angry Birds vs Ponies".
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  2. #102
    Warchief Notshauna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    It's not just about WoW, but about the whole genre. WoW may be old or suffer from whatever drawbacks one can think about, but if the whole genre was still going strong, other games would pick up the customers.
    More accurately no game has taken the throne of WoW. Instead of in the case of WoW where they controlled the majority of the market, the player base has remained a lot more split among a lot of Korean and a few Western MMOs. MMOs unlike AAA games are less interested in sales and more interested in retaining a player base, this means that if someone were to move to WoW to FFXIV they'd be seen as a 1 to 1 trade as opposed to 2 sales in the genre. There needs to be more studies of MMOs as a whole before people can refer to the health of the genre.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorcanna View Post
    Exactly.

    We're not talking 70 years here, we're talking 13. If people could be drawn in and enjoy the game back then, they sure as hell can (and are) now.
    Those people have much more online games to play now, and large part of the market is completely free to play. Times change, MMORPGs are genre in steady decline just as RTS games were years ago.

  4. #104
    Over 9000! Gimlix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reffan View Post
    Those people have much more online games to play now, and large part of the market is completely free to play. Times change, MMORPGs are genre in steady decline just as RTS games were years ago.
    RTS is dead. MMORPG is following?
    Quote Originally Posted by Shekora View Post
    Goddamn it, Gimlix, why do you keep making these threads?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam the Wiser View Post
    Goddamn it, Gimlix, why do you keep making these threads?

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by reffan View Post
    Those people have much more online games to play now, and large part of the market is completely free to play. Times change, MMORPGs are genre in steady decline just as RTS games were years ago.
    So? Times change, doesn't mean nobody ever finds interest in the old ever again. Just look at music. When I started playing I had access to a Wii with tons of games I loved and a vast number of games on my PC. WoW appealed to me more than anything had managed before despite that. They hadn't even revamped the 1-60 at that time.

    In the same fashion, I listen to music which came out 30 years before I was born. So do countless of others.

    Thinking WoW doesn't draw new players is commendable mental gymnastics, not much else.
    Last edited by Queen of Hamsters; 2017-04-23 at 04:37 PM.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorcanna View Post
    Exactly.

    We're not talking 70 years here, we're talking 13. I can still remember what I had for dinner and the weather outside on the day that I started playing.

    If people could be drawn in and enjoy the game back then, they sure as hell can (and are) now. Just as how demographics remained for 100 years of a brand (Coca Cola), the same applies to everything else. New human beings aren't just born void of everything previous generations had in terms of personality and development of interests.

    That being said, they should imo no doubt apply questing mechanics and story delivery (voice acting, talking head etc) to the leveling experience at large.
    The market has shifted. People prefer mobile games and free to play games. Mobile is quick and easy and gives a satisfying short burst of fun. F2P games provide the long grind with acquiring items/characters and often have a better sense of competition.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorcanna View Post
    So? Times change, doesn't mean nobody ever finds interest in the old ever again. Just look at music. When I started playing I had access to a Wii with tons of games I loved and a vast number of games on my PC. WoW appealed to me more than anything had managed before despite that.

    In the same fashion, I listen to music which came out 30 years before I was born. So do countless of others.

    Thinking WoW doesn't draw new players is commendable mental gymnastics, not much else.
    Of course WoW draws new people, but far less than it used to draw. It is combination of it's age, genre, competition on the market and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    RTS is dead. MMORPG is following?
    It is quite evident that yes, MMORPGs are "dying". Or more like, declining. The genre will live, but it will be niche one, just like RTSes currently are. Even Starcraft, the most succesful of modern RTSes is declining.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRabidDeer View Post
    The market has shifted. People prefer mobile games and free to play games. Mobile is quick and easy and gives a satisfying short burst of fun. F2P games provide the long grind with acquiring items/characters and often have a better sense of competition.
    And there's still room for everyone. I'm not sure what we're supposed to do with this information? People keep playing this game year after year and Blizzard advertises it. Can't do much more.

    No F2P-game has ever kept my interest for 9 years.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by reffan View Post
    Of course WoW draws new people, but far less than it used to draw. It is combination of it's age, genre, competition on the market and so on.
    Yep, and we'll still get more expansions and the game will keep raking in 800+ million USD on bad years.

    I'm just opposing the sentiment that "nobody new knows about this game"... That's just nigh impossible in our age. I know the lyrics to Anaconda despite never EVER having sat down with the intent of listening to it. The struggle... :P

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    RTS is dead. MMORPG is following?
    RTS was actually the popular genre (atleast how I experienced) from like 1994-2005 or so on, with MMORPG's being on the rise for like 2004-2010(?) which then started to decline. But RTS after 2005 (around Westwoods demise) was starting to become very niche with the lack of good RTS games around, and the ones that did take off didn't stay popular for long and have been long dead. Only SC2 is still around yet we still joke how it is a dead game. MMORPG might not be dead but its definately on maintenance mode, and its future is very clouded as of now considering how much time and effort it takes to make such a game that can either flop or be very succesful.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorcanna View Post
    I'm just opposing the sentiment that "nobody new knows about this game"... That's just nigh impossible in our age.
    Yeah, that sentiment is simply not true. Not for the game that had over 100 mln of people playing it during it's lifetime. OP just pulled this out of his ass. :v

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Rorcanna View Post
    And there's still room for everyone. I'm not sure what we're supposed to do with this information? People keep playing this game year after year and Blizzard advertises it. Can't do much more.
    Not really.... time is finite. And I agree you can't do much more, which is why I am saying that what OP is suggesting isn't really possible.
    No F2P-game has ever kept my interest for 9 years.
    And F2P games don't have to keep your interest for 9 years because they are constantly coming out with new ones. No game has held people as long as WoW has, by all accounts it should be a complete ghost town by now. But it isn't, it is still the most popular MMO.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    "Attention span", hah.

    You mean more and more people don't want to spend so much time being bored out of their minds.
    Yeaah... If someone enjoys a game, they're not bored "out of their minds" regardless of what they're playing.

    It's funny how people say "younger generations lack attention-spans for certain games" when no generations before the young ones we're seeing now had access to so much entertainment, and gaming has never been more widely accepted as a viable interest.
    Last edited by Queen of Hamsters; 2017-04-23 at 04:48 PM.

  13. #113
    That's good news. I actively warn people about the dangers of this game and just how bad it is.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Sam the Wiser View Post
    That's good news. I actively warn people about the dangers of this game and just how bad it is.
    Warning people can have the opposite effect in that they then want to see if you're really talking from a point of knowledge, or just trying to enforce your opinions upon them.



    I should know, I was warned from playing RDR since "I wouldn't enjoy the cowboy themes". Ended up my most played game on any console.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by McNeil View Post
    RTS was actually the popular genre (atleast how I experienced) from like 1994-2005 or so on, with MMORPG's being on the rise for like 2004-2010(?) which then started to decline. But RTS after 2005 (around Westwoods demise) was starting to become very niche with the lack of good RTS games around, and the ones that did take off didn't stay popular for long and have been long dead. Only SC2 is still around yet we still joke how it is a dead game. MMORPG might not be dead but its definately on maintenance mode, and its future is very clouded as of now considering how much time and effort it takes to make such a game that can either flop or be very succesful.
    As an RTS fan I think that main issue w/ RTS was their complexity, obv IMHO. That's something RTS fans actually like, but other people find 4X and MOBAs or even RPGs more appealing. RTS is a mix of micro- and macromanagement, but for people who outright suck at micro 4X game is a better choice, 4X revolves around good macro, MOBAs and some RPGs, e.g. Pillars of Eternity, have really good micro. So people kinda quit playing RTS in favour of other more micro- or macro-oriented genres.

    RTS and MMORPG have one thing in common, both genres are kinda jacks of all trades, but masters of none.
    Last edited by ls-; 2017-04-23 at 04:55 PM.

  16. #116
    Warchief Notshauna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rorcanna View Post
    New players rarely suffer from the jadedness of older ones.

    Applying YOUR sense of being tired of the leveling content to every new player isn't very realistic. I remember n00bing my way through the 1-80 content just fine when I was new. And that's the key; The game and everything in it, is new to new players.

    Also, saying people would need to be ignorant of other games in order to enjoy WoW's early questing is downright arrogant. What's to say they'd enjoy those "other games" more? What we enjoy is highly subjective after all. Hell, I've leveled 33 characters through the 1-60 and still find ways to enjoy it.
    I also enjoyed WoW's questing when I started playing it, but it was my first online multiplayer game, and my first open world game, and my first RPG. Even in 2004 my enjoyment was born of ignorance because there were better RPGs and better open world games, hell even better open world RPGs. I honestly don't think I'd ever of reached max level in WoW if instead of getting it I got Morrowind or Icewind Dale II. Even though I loved WoW's exploration, world and character creation I didn't know other games were better at it. What I'm trying to say is that every aspect of WoW's questing is done better in other games, so I don't know anyone who's aware of those other games could be sold by it. I will admit that saying that liking it is born of ignorance was very hyperbolic, rather even if you do like it there are simply better choices.

    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    Well, a new player has it far easier now than one did 10 years ago... level 1-60 is far smoother than ever before. So a new player today has a far easier and quicker learning curve compared to originally.
    That's part of what I mean. WoW's early leveling has the problem of you massively out leveling zones before you can even complete the story, enemies dying in one hit and so much health and mana regeneration that it's nearly impossible to die. This was introduced because we as existing players level primarily to reach end game, someone who's playing the game for the first time doesn't have that proclivity.
    Last edited by Notshauna; 2017-04-23 at 05:02 PM.

  17. #117
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    A lot of people are throwing market shift, f2p games, mobiles and tablet arguments around.

    But I see no reason why a MMO can't combat all of these.

    Afterall, these "new" platforms have a much larger playerbase. One they get from being f2p. From these, a ton are barely playing, as such - not invested, however, a certain percentage either pay low or high amounts of money for ingame purchases. All adding up to a higher revenue overall, than subscription based games.

    WoW's key disadvantage is a falling population, that is also a negative spiral into ever greater population fall. Being f2p, overall, wow would have a much higher activity while also being able to capitalize on game purchases instead.

    While it will take long time before WoW turns this way, new games should focus on this. There is a massive market in these social online "life" simulating games. Especially with interesting universes, e.g. middelage rpgs like wow. It's a genre that is not properly understood, while being as universal to human nature as Cola.

    Right now, it's very hard for two players to socially interact in MMORPGS. As mentioned, due to mmorpgs in general copying features. For WoW, consider WoW starting at 100. The first thing you do is to get your artifact weapon. A quest that is forced solo play. Secondly, if you choose Stormheim, you will be forced into a solo play scenario before you can start multiplaying. Next, each patch adds key unique quests, that albeit cool is required to do and is forced solo play. This is just a tiny bit of the issues with mmorpgs today, they don't foster this social interaction.
    Last edited by mmoc987cc13f6a; 2017-04-23 at 05:02 PM.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Notshauna View Post
    What I'm trying to say is that every aspect of WoW's questing is done better in other games, so I don't know anyone who's aware of those other games could be sold by it.
    Luckily, you don't speak for everyone.

    I have tried every MMORPG on the market, and none has stuck. Games you consider do things better, might be a waste of space according to others. Unless we're talking objectively bad games with a shitty execution, it's all up to the individual what is "better" and which game they consider does things the best and is most worth pouring time into.

    WoW doesn't stay the most popular MMORPG because of dumb luck.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazkaldar View Post
    they don't foster this social interaction.
    Neither did any previous iteration of the game if you have that mindset where you consider yourself "forced" out of it...

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gimlix View Post
    Then tell me how to advertise. Since Online advertisement is already being done.
    I assume you are older then me.
    Lmao you damn sure don't advertise on TV in the day and age of monthly-subscription online viewing programs, that's for sure
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  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazkaldar View Post
    WoW's key disadvantage is a falling population, that is also a negative spiral into ever greater population fall. Being f2p, overall, wow would have a much higher activity while also being able to capitalize on game purchases instead.
    WoW's key advantage is its population. Other MMO's have tried the F2P model and it hasn't really worked out, there is nothing that indicates that f2p for WoW would work.

    WoW is just an old game and people need to face that fact. TF2 was huge, is free to play, and is 3 years newer than WoW and still only has ~1.5 million people playing it.

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