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  1. #1

    WoW skill: Knowing your class vs knowing the boss

    So before we get into what I mean by "WoW skill", I want to concede some caveats:

    • I'm talking PVE here.
    • Gear is more important than skill.
    • Raid success often has more to do with organizational effectiveness and group dynamics over individual skill.

    Now that we cleared that up, I want to address what I think has been a massive shift since the beginning of the game. And for me personally, not something I like very much. Early on in Vanilla, boss mechanics we essentially laughable, but classes were far more complex. Skill leaned hard on "knowing your class" over "knowing the boss".

    What I really liked about this is if I was a veteran X class, I could enter any boss fight, learn the few mechanics, but my skill and knowledge always carried over from fight to fight.

    Now it seems like every spec is extremely easy, but every time a new tier comes out it becomes exhausting to have to learn every mechanic for every boss (and sometimes multiple phases). It no longer feels like I'm mastering my hunter, it just seems like I'm mastering a temporarily valuable boss fight.

    Nothing carries over either. I could be the best X class, but it doesn't matter if I don't know the boss mechanics.

    I don't think it should lean heavy either way (but def slightly more towards class mastery), and I do think you should be able to pick up on certain things happening in a fight and as a veteran player know how to handle it on the fly, just by your knowledge of the game.

  2. #2
    "Class mastery" dies every expansion. You basically re-learn the spec, usually gets easier, so any skills you learned before no longer become applicable. Class complexity peeked in Wrath or Cata(I quit early in Cata). Vanilla was not complex when classes had 1-3 skills at most, 1 offensive cd, and then a bunch of fluff utilities that you would almost never use. The skill ceiling was laughably low in vanilla. Skill most definitely comes from knowing how to adapt to the boss encounter, skilled players learn how to maximize perfectly based on what the boss does. In modern WoW knowing the bosses is a lot more important that "mastering" your class, considering the depth of most DPS specs is that of a puddle but I do think WoW should be more complex for classes to add a layer of mastery that takes skill and practice to achieve, but that is not what most players would want. WoW is very casual and thats why Legion gutted so many abilities and reduced many classes to the complexity of vanilla WoW.

  3. #3
    What a load of shite.
    Probably running on a Pentium 4

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    Early on in Vanilla, boss mechanics we essentially laughable, but classes were far more complex. Skill leaned hard on "knowing your class" over "knowing the boss".
    Spamming Shadowbolt or Fireball or Auto Attacking doesn't make a class complex. The only reason it seems less complex now is because back then no one knew what they were doing.

    But I see where you're coming from. You learn a ton of raid mechanics each tier, and at first it is pretty overwhelming, especially for players who haven't raided before. On top of that, you're punished for entering the tier late because everyone already learnt all the mechanics, and you're now expected to. This is why I personally don't like raiding.

    However, I don't think individual skill is entirely out of the question. If you fuck up a mechanic, the group wipes and you will likely get called out for it.

    I also think your class mastery carries over each raid tier, because you don't need to relearn an entirely new set of skills each tier. The only exception to this is when a new expansion hits and Blizzard gives us a new playstyle.
    "Leave your personal feedback, don't try to convince them that "everyone" hates something." - Ion Hazzikostas
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    Early on in Vanilla ...... classes were far more complex.
    Honestly could not get past this. Classes were in no way "complex" in Vanilla unless this was the first MMO you'd played and you were just learning how they worked. And even then, they were pretty simple.
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    This game isn't about your friends, though. This game is about taking it seriously enough that you do the hardest content no matter what it takes (transferring, etc), lasting friendships and other elements be damned. /s

  6. #6
    Immortal Darththeo's Avatar
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    Complex? There were only a few viable specs in Vanilla.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    • Gear is more important than skill.
    What? You can give terrible players the best gear in the game, and they wont magically be able to clear mythic content. A better geared player wont by default out perform a more skilled player.

    OT:
    This has been the case for a very long time. You need to both understand how to play your class, and also understand/plan out the fight if you're trying to maximize performance. Mastery of a class will make learning a fight MUCH easier, as you won't have to be focusing on your rotation, as it should come completely naturally. So most of your focus on the initial pulls of a boss will be about learning how to deal with certain things, where to stand to minimize movement/downtime, etc.

  8. #8
    So your issue with 'WoW skill' is that raiding is mostly about organisation?

    No shit sherlock.

    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    What I really liked about this is if I was a veteran X class, I could enter any boss fight, learn the few mechanics, but my skill and knowledge always carried over from fight to fight.
    Are you implying that people have to relearn their class for every boss in Nighthold?

    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    Early on in Vanilla, boss mechanics we essentially laughable, but classes were far more complex. Skill leaned hard on "knowing your class" over "knowing the boss".
    Arguing that classes were complex in Vanilla (when played correctly) is going to be a very, very hard position to hold. Before you go ahead with this, consider the following:

    - a warlock casted nothing but shadowbolt during most fights in vanilla
    - a hunter could get away with not casting any spell at all, because most of their damage was from auto attacks. Because of this fact, and the fact that most vanilla bosses had zero movement required, AFKing bosses like Runescape style combat was viable as a hunter.
    - prot warriors did nothing but sunder armour for most vanilla bosses

    I mean I can go on. I could mention the numerous other specs where one button, or no buttons was the correct way to play them, but again like i said - is this the hill you want to die on? Arguing that vanilla classes are complex?

    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    • Gear is more important than skill.
    which is why most of the complaints around the mage tower challenges are coming from people with 905+ ilvl and 42+ traits, where as many of the completions are done by people with 890 ilvl (or less) and 40 traits (or less). I just got finished doing the Ret challenge in 7 tries with 900 ilvl and 36 traits, the day before I did the Fenryr tame challenge (soloing half of Mythic Halls of Valor) on a hunter with 880 ilvl, no healing legendaries and 40 traits in 2 tries. Meanwhile the comments on wowhead all report 20+ tries, with multiple healing legendaries, 900 ilvl and 45+ traits.

    Again, is this the hill you're going to die on? Do I need to link you videos of Sparkuggz smashing people on DPS with literally zero gear on. Do I need to point out that stats are more important than item level? Are you fresh off the battle.net launcher?
    Last edited by Sliske; 2017-04-24 at 01:57 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    So before we get into what I mean by "WoW skill", I want to concede some caveats:

    • I'm talking PVE here.
    • Gear is more important than skill.
    • Raid success often has more to do with organizational effectiveness and group dynamics over individual skill.

    Now that we cleared that up, I want to address what I think has been a massive shift since the beginning of the game. And for me personally, not something I like very much. Early on in Vanilla, boss mechanics we essentially laughable, but classes were far more complex. Skill leaned hard on "knowing your class" over "knowing the boss".

    What I really liked about this is if I was a veteran X class, I could enter any boss fight, learn the few mechanics, but my skill and knowledge always carried over from fight to fight.

    Now it seems like every spec is extremely easy, but every time a new tier comes out it becomes exhausting to have to learn every mechanic for every boss (and sometimes multiple phases). It no longer feels like I'm mastering my hunter, it just seems like I'm mastering a temporarily valuable boss fight.

    Nothing carries over either. I could be the best X class, but it doesn't matter if I don't know the boss mechanics.

    I don't think it should lean heavy either way (but def slightly more towards class mastery), and I do think you should be able to pick up on certain things happening in a fight and as a veteran player know how to handle it on the fly, just by your knowledge of the game.
    I would agree with you if "knowing the boss and all his complex mechanics" couldnt always be narrowed down to a very small handful of things that people let blow their mind into thinking it is more than it is.

    1. avoidable damage
    2. unavoidable damage
    3. timely death of designated targets
    4. placement

    what seems to fool people is when 1-4 happen simultaniously and they think it is all of a sudden some new god mechanic when its not.
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  10. #10
    "Classes in vanilla were complex"

    Are you trolling or are you actually deluded enough to believe the bullshit you write?

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigbazz View Post
    What a load of shite.
    What a well thought out, insightful evaluation of the OP's comments .... worth all 8 hours it took you to come up with.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    "Classes in vanilla were complex"

    Are you trolling or are you actually deluded enough to believe the bullshit you write?
    You quote something that is undeniably true, then whinge about the OP being a troll ?

    How does that add up ?

    Challenge Mode : Play WoW like my disability has me play:
    You will need two people, Brian MUST use the mouse for movement/looking and John MUST use the keyboard for casting, attacking, healing etc.
    Briand and John share the same goal, same intentions - but they can't talk to each other, however they can react to each other's in game activities.
    Now see how far Brian and John get in WoW.


  12. #12
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    Early on in Vanilla, boss mechanics we essentially laughable, but classes were far more complex. Skill leaned hard on "knowing your class" over "knowing the boss".
    Eh what?!
    I remember running BRD with a paladin who hadn't spent a single talent point, because he didn't know they existed. Went just fine. Classes were not complex. No "optimal rotation" was needed to kill anything, just good enough gear.

  13. #13
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Without learning your class there is no point in learning boss fights. If you can't do your spec-specific priorities without constantly watching bars or thinking about what to press next - you are going to fail miserably at higher difficulties.
    In short - if you can't "do your job" as DPS spec you won't be able to do boss mechanics without sacrificing DPS.

    But to me this topic is really weird - both are important, lack of class knowledge harms your performance and lack of fight knowledge harms your performance, there is no "what's more important?" question to be asked
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
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  14. #14
    What a terrible idea. Imagine how dull it would be to have effectively mastered all the expansion's raid encounters as soon as you were done taking in the class changes.

  15. #15
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    And just stuff i laughed at while reading OP post:
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    • Gear is more important than skill.
    Self explanatory
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    classes were far more complex.
    My sides are in pain now
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    What I really liked about this is if I was a veteran X class, I could enter any boss fight, learn the few mechanics, but my skill and knowledge always carried over from fight to fight.
    Didn't know that you have to relearn your class after killing a boss.

    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    Now it seems like every spec is extremely easy
    Probably that's why this forum is full of "help mah deeps plox" threads, because specs are extremely easy

    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    every mechanic for every boss (and sometimes multiple phases).
    Damn you blizzard for making me think read guides online watch youtube videos on how do i beat new bosses!
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    Nothing carries over either. I could be the best X class, but it doesn't matter if I don't know the boss mechanics.
    That's where i started crylaughing
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    I don't think it should lean heavy either way (but def slightly more towards class mastery), and I do think you should be able to pick up on certain things happening in a fight and as a veteran player know how to handle it on the fly, just by your knowledge of the game.
    Seriously, you do. As a veteran player you don't need an addon to see who you need to run into on star augur mythic, for example. But running into a fight unprepared is irresponsible and dumb af
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  16. #16
    In vanilla:

    Mage rotation: spam frost bolt
    Rogue rotation: 5 sinister strikes->rupture->4 sinister strikes->slice and dice.

    Vanilla rotations were not complex mate. Maybe there were some rotations which needed some thought to them, but in general every rotation was slower, simpler and easier.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    Early on in Vanilla, boss mechanics we essentially laughable, but classes were far more complex. Skill leaned hard on "knowing your class" over "knowing the boss"..
    This post is 100% credible based solely on this incredibly accurate assessment.

    10/10 best troll 2017.

  18. #18
    Merely a Setback FelPlague's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ro9ue View Post
    So before we get into what I mean by "WoW skill", I want to concede some caveats:

    • I'm talking PVE here.
    • Gear is more important than skill.
    • Raid success often has more to do with organizational effectiveness and group dynamics over individual skill.

    Now that we cleared that up, I want to address what I think has been a massive shift since the beginning of the game. And for me personally, not something I like very much. Early on in Vanilla, boss mechanics we essentially laughable, but classes were far more complex. Skill leaned hard on "knowing your class" over "knowing the boss".

    What I really liked about this is if I was a veteran X class, I could enter any boss fight, learn the few mechanics, but my skill and knowledge always carried over from fight to fight.

    Now it seems like every spec is extremely easy, but every time a new tier comes out it becomes exhausting to have to learn every mechanic for every boss (and sometimes multiple phases). It no longer feels like I'm mastering my hunter, it just seems like I'm mastering a temporarily valuable boss fight.

    Nothing carries over either. I could be the best X class, but it doesn't matter if I don't know the boss mechanics.

    I don't think it should lean heavy either way (but def slightly more towards class mastery), and I do think you should be able to pick up on certain things happening in a fight and as a veteran player know how to handle it on the fly, just by your knowledge of the game.
    no they wernt
    for both vanilla and bc i was just spamming shadowbolt and in vanilal near topping the meters and in bc allways topping the meters


    Place curse depeneding on what we have, then spam shadowbolt and life tap


    ok pretty good guide on what gear is the best... seems legit, lets check out the rotation

    PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFT
    Last edited by FelPlague; 2017-04-24 at 07:38 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    My ideas are objectively good

  19. #19
    I thought this post was legit at first, till I realised you were just trying to trigger people with shit like "Gear>Skill" and "Specs were harder in vanilla"

    Dank meme, I rate 8/10 cause it wasn't too obvious.

  20. #20
    I am Murloc!
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    Seems like a troll. To get the highest DPS in vanilla on my rogue is was literally keep SnD up and get an eviscerate in once cycle. Mages kept scorch up and spammed fire ball. Hunters basically spammed their abilities, then sat down and drank for 30. Warriors just hit mortal strike and whirlwind off CD and tried to fill with heroic strike. Anything else literally wasn't really damage in vanilla WoW.

    I'm not sure what world people live in when they talk about complexities of the game. I don't think this expansion is the most complex "PvE" expansion, but it's certainly not as low as TBC/Vanilla, which are the most basic of basic rotations, and generally the easiest raid mechanics in the game. Sunwell warlock was literally curse on pull, shadow bolt and life tap. Rogue in Sunwell was literally the same as Vanilla, except you could get a few more eviscerates in (and depending on armor penetration use rupture or not).

    Hard to say if bosses were more of a gear check or not, because several bosses were left bugged for weeks in vanilla, and with piss poor itemization, you had a circus of gear from pretty much everywhere in the game. That's mainly because how they did hit % and crit % (because of budget, you wouldn't see items with 3% crit on them). They still has gear checks in regards to resistance checks on several bosses, and gear checks in previous expansions went beyond catch up mechanics, to where it was heavily implied that you should be farming previous raids for the entire expansion (something that hasn't existed for years now, thankfully).

    The only part of your analysis that's true is that to a degree, is that success on one boss doesn't carry over. However good players make that jump quickly, while bad players are going to struggle (which leads me to believe why would you classify somebody as one to begin with). All that says is that encounter design earlier in the game was incredibly bland to the point that you could play the same way on virtually every boss, and be carried by your 'skill' because nothing in the boss design differed from the previous boss. Now, that's a vast overstatement because there were indeed 'challenging' bosses in TBC/Vanilla, but not to the degree that we get now. I watched many 'master' players in Molten Core run around like absolute fucking retards when they did Razorgore. I also watched these amazing Molten Core players fail to grasp the concept of LoS in the middle section of BWL as well.

    The game has just evolved into both aspects. Bosses are more complex and the game asks you to use abilities that you probably didn't have to have on your bars. I mean a lot of bosses were taunt immune early on (carry over from Everquest) and having bosses that incorporated stuns or interrupt rotations on a regular basis was exceedingly rare. They still aren't super common, but they use parts of toolkits that formally wasn't used in early iterations of WoW, and personally I think that makes the game far more deep. The only thing that irks me about the development team is that they should have highlighted the interrupt button a thousand times when people first got the ability, and made people do a personal dungeon, where they have to successfully interrupt/stun/CC a mob 3x over a minute to proceed in the leveling process.

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