Havoc Belt Simming Correctly?

[nerf shaman]

I see a lot of people on here saying ring + belt is the best legendary combo, so I was excited today when I got the belt as my 4th legendary.

My legendaries are:
Chest
Belt
Boots
Trinket

The chest + kjbw are simming higher than belt + trinket. Is this normal? Does the sim take into account the belt's effect? It seems really odd to me

[Deleted]

Simcraft takes it into account. The damage is called "Symbiote Strike", so you can even see exactly how much it does.

It is possible that the chest+trinket combo is good for you because you have shit gear on those slots so the item upgrades outweigh the better effects on ring/belt. Depends entirely on your gear.

Also, I am pretty sure that Bracers+Ring are the best combo now (at least for mythic) on almost all bosses

[nerf shaman]

That was very informative. Thank you

[Extremity]

What items were you using as non-legendaries for your belt and chest slots?

[Deleted]

Simcraft takes it into account. The damage is called "Symbiote Strike", so you can even see exactly how much it does.

It is possible that the chest+trinket combo is good for you because you have shit gear on those slots so the item upgrades outweigh the better effects on ring/belt. Depends entirely on your gear.

Also, I am pretty sure that Bracers+Ring are the best combo now (at least for mythic) on almost all bosses

Huh? Didn't that become null the moment you acquired the blade dancer's grace trait? Pretty sure bracers with bloodlet lacks behind first blood the moment you get the 20% increased crit damage on blade dance tbh

[Deleted]

Simcraft takes it into account. The damage is called "Symbiote Strike", so you can even see exactly how much it does.

It is possible that the chest+trinket combo is good for you because you have shit gear on those slots so the item upgrades outweigh the better effects on ring/belt. Depends entirely on your gear.

Also, I am pretty sure that Bracers+Ring are the best combo now (at least for mythic) on almost all bosses

"So you can see exactly how much damage it does" Wrong, as far as the builds before yesterdays go which i haven't tried. Belt effect always sims at 2.3% extra damage from what ive seen/heard which is actually inaccurate on a good opener it can be over double that amount. Belt IS better for pure st with chaos cleave/first blood depending on your gear.

[Svisalith]

A sim of yourself won't represent the damage that belt adds to you in a raid very well

If you're in a raid and doing below average burst damage, other people will eat the boss below 90% during your ramp-up and you won't get much benefit from cinidaria

Opposite is true for havoc, cini with insane burst setup (dinner bell etc) and you can "steal" the 100-90% window from other people, dramatically inflating the effect of the cinidaria.

You'll often get +4%, sometimes even +5% damage from Cini while the sim says only +2.5% or so

[Extremity]

Yeah, what was said above is accurate.

Basically, you can't look at 100% to 90% as being 10% of the boss health and thus 10% of your damage - consider what percentage of your overall damage takes place during your burst phases, and specifically your opener. More than any other class, we rely heavily on our opener damage. So, for the sake of example, while the first 10% of a fight is, on average, 10% of an average person's damage (give or take) we could argue that we do 20% of our damage during the first 10% of a fight due to our opener burst.

This is not mathematically accurate, of course, it's just to make a point. The fact that we have such tremendous burst at the start of a fight is one of the reasons the belt is so good for us. If we had a static rotation that was the same for an entire encounter, the belt would be a relatively flat increase and not as beneficial. Because we open with such tremendous burst, the belt becomes much better for us. Its use on an encounter also depends on how many adds there are, how much hp they have, how quickly they die, etc. There are fights where the belt might be twice as good compared to another, you really can't rely on one simcraft as an overall "this is always the way to go" resource.

[VooDsXo]

Yeah, what was said above is accurate.

Basically, you can't look at 100% to 90% as being 10% of the boss health and thus 10% of your damage - consider what percentage of your overall damage takes place during your burst phases, and specifically your opener. More than any other class, we rely heavily on our opener damage. So, for the sake of example, while the first 10% of a fight is, on average, 10% of an average person's damage (give or take) we could argue that we do 20% of our damage during the first 10% of a fight due to our opener burst.

This is not mathematically accurate, of course, it's just to make a point. The fact that we have such tremendous burst at the start of a fight is one of the reasons the belt is so good for us. If we had a static rotation that was the same for an entire encounter, the belt would be a relatively flat increase and not as beneficial. Because we open with such tremendous burst, the belt becomes much better for us. Its use on an encounter also depends on how many adds there are, how much hp they have, how quickly they die, etc. There are fights where the belt might be twice as good compared to another, you really can't rely on one simcraft as an overall "this is always the way to go" resource.

As well as sim fight duration vs actual fight durations, or 100-90% window duration more so. Then furthered by how many times do you get that benefit per fight. On a pure burn sim it wouldn't be nearly as gracious as it really is with real world use.

[Enentari]

Didn't that become null the moment you acquired the blade dancer's grace trait?

On pure ST fights, first blood + ring + cinidaria are slightly ahead.

On every 2+ target fights, bloodlet + brassers + rings are far far ahead.

[Sarevokcz]

Yeah, what was said above is accurate.

Basically, you can't look at 100% to 90% as being 10% of the boss health and thus 10% of your damage - consider what percentage of your overall damage takes place during your burst phases, and specifically your opener. More than any other class, we rely heavily on our opener damage. So, for the sake of example, while the first 10% of a fight is, on average, 10% of an average person's damage (give or take) we could argue that we do 20% of our damage during the first 10% of a fight due to our opener burst.

This is not mathematically accurate, of course, it's just to make a point. The fact that we have such tremendous burst at the start of a fight is one of the reasons the belt is so good for us. If we had a static rotation that was the same for an entire encounter, the belt would be a relatively flat increase and not as beneficial. Because we open with such tremendous burst, the belt becomes much better for us. Its use on an encounter also depends on how many adds there are, how much hp they have, how quickly they die, etc. There are fights where the belt might be twice as good compared to another, you really can't rely on one simcraft as an overall "this is always the way to go" resource.

then you have to take into account also how many more people have strong burst and/or cinidaria in your raid, making the belt worth less than usual if the first 10% are gone in a matter of seconds and then of course you have to take into account all the bosses, where the first 10% are pretty much irelevant or where they reset HP while you dont have CDs ready for each reset, both of which make belt weaker

it might look good on paper and on some logs, but in the grand scheme of things, other legs are better on atleast half the fights in NH

and I dont like the belt just because you basically go all in on your opener and if it sucks, your whole pull will be trash

[Extremity]

then you have to take into account also how many more people have strong burst and/or cinidaria in your raid, making the belt worth less than usual if the first 10% are gone in a matter of seconds and then of course you have to take into account all the bosses, where the first 10% are pretty much irelevant or where they reset HP while you dont have CDs ready for each reset, both of which make belt weaker

it might look good on paper and on some logs, but in the grand scheme of things, other legs are better on atleast half the fights in NH

and I dont like the belt just because you basically go all in on your opener and if it sucks, your whole pull will be trash

You're right, you also have to consider how long that first 10% will last. For most current content, though, you're going to get 30 seconds out of the first 10% -- once you're going faster than that, the fights are generally trivial enough that your personal legendary setup doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things anyways. When talking about gearing most of us are generally doing so with the assumption that progression fights are being discussed.

Note:
I edited my reply into your post instead of posting a new reply by accident, so that's why it says "edited by Extremity" at the bottom. I've done that like twice now >.< Sorry!

[Deleted]

I see a lot of people on here saying ring + belt is the best legendary combo, so I was excited today when I got the belt as my 4th legendary.

My legendaries are:
Chest
Belt
Boots
Trinket

The chest + kjbw are simming higher than belt + trinket. Is this normal? Does the sim take into account the belt's effect? It seems really odd to me

I have it and hardly ever use it. The belt may be strong on some fights on average but it adds to the inconsistency of the class (especially without the ring). Every time I equip it I get hardly any procs in the opener and I have the ring. On average the neck/chest/sephuz/trinket/bracers are very close in ST but way more consistent and offer additional offensive benefits (trinket on demand AoE burst, bracer insane cleave dps, sephuz haste) or defensive benefits (prydaz shield, chest leech).

Not saying the belt is bad, but it is very frustrating to play with and on some fights next to useless (star augur first 10% for example). It may get a lot better with the new tier set though if they don't touch our CD stacking in 7.2.5.

Besides the belt doesn't sim well. On long fights, where you'd benefit from a long 100-90% phase the impact of the belt diminishes. On short fights the 100-90% phase is too short to matter much. In reality it's a lot different, at least on farm kills you don't insanely outgear.

[Achie]

Also I've been getting terrible parses using the belt on my heroic weekly farm clear.
I suspect overgearing the content and thus reducing the fight length will dramatically detriment the belts efficiency.
Using common sense I'd say the belt is best if you can get the boss to 90% in more than 8~ seconds (CB duration).

As for bloodlet over first blood, as people have said already, bracers are good on m+, fortified esp, and on any kind of cleave boss fight. So basically every fight except 2.
Although Chaos Cleave comes up ahead of both in high gear in ST/cleave (except bot).

[Mamut]

Chaos Cleave? Everyone say its garbage talent. Im using now ring/belt only on Krosus and Trillax but Its fun to see 4-5 mln dps burst opener (once saw 5 mln on mythic krosus wipe, usually going between 3-4). Had insane luck with crits and procs (and I dont have jacin set). After few seconds had already twice more damage than the second person.