1. #2101
    If the class was even remotely OP then everyone will be playing it and no such things as aesthetics, fun/boring gameplay, difficulty etc will stop people from playing it. It's simple as that. But right now it's THE rarest spec in the entire game and it didn't change much since the start of the legion.

  2. #2102
    Bloodsail Admiral keqe's Avatar
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    In terms of raiding brewmaster and guardian are on completely different level compared to the other tanks. The gap isn't that wide now with 7.2 buffs/traits and people having more gear but progressing NH with other tanks would have been horrible in comparison.

    There was no point in NH where damage taken was an issue or something to be afraid of. On guldan I worried about healer's mana more than my life. If healers had mana tanking guldan was 0 risk. Meanwhile it 2-3 shotted DK's with autoattacks.

    Comparing monk and druid is like comparing which diamond is the shiniest.


    Regarding 7.2.5 PTR. If they put BoS to 3s static CD like they suggested then rotation will be fine. It will be weird during bloodlust but otherwise should be the same.
    1000% stagger will be only reached via pausing so it isn't big of an issue.
    3x duration cap in IsB will actually force you to play better. Freedom is of course better but with current brew generation it won't matter. If they nerf 4pc (which is likely) then the cap can be more of an issue.

    5% stagger nerf to IsB brings us to launch level stagger. 75% stagger "base" is still strong.
    Fort being 10% will only change its power from ludicrous to ridiculous. It will still make you survive almost anything in raids and fortification makes you dodge everything in m+.

    Elusive brawler gain from breath of fire seems quite redundant. In AoE tanking your brawler stacks come and go multiple times in a second. The more mobs the less will that "1 dodge" matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gestopft View Post
    For everything else, there's Brewmastercard

  3. #2103
    Quote Originally Posted by keqe View Post
    In terms of raiding brewmaster and guardian are on completely different level compared to the other tanks. The gap isn't that wide now with 7.2 buffs/traits and people having more gear but progressing NH with other tanks would have been horrible in comparison.

    There was no point in NH where damage taken was an issue or something to be afraid of. On guldan I worried about healer's mana more than my life. If healers had mana tanking guldan was 0 risk. Meanwhile it 2-3 shotted DK's with autoattacks.

    Comparing monk and druid is like comparing which diamond is the shiniest.


    Regarding 7.2.5 PTR. If they put BoS to 3s static CD like they suggested then rotation will be fine. It will be weird during bloodlust but otherwise should be the same.
    1000% stagger will be only reached via pausing so it isn't big of an issue.
    3x duration cap in IsB will actually force you to play better. Freedom is of course better but with current brew generation it won't matter. If they nerf 4pc (which is likely) then the cap can be more of an issue.

    5% stagger nerf to IsB brings us to launch level stagger. 75% stagger "base" is still strong.
    Fort being 10% will only change its power from ludicrous to ridiculous. It will still make you survive almost anything in raids and fortification makes you dodge everything in m+.

    Elusive brawler gain from breath of fire seems quite redundant. In AoE tanking your brawler stacks come and go multiple times in a second. The more mobs the less will that "1 dodge" matter.

    10% armor gain and the BoF reset talent as well. overall im not too upset if things go the way they seem to be headed.

  4. #2104
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    This just in. Tank spec known for being weaker in low level content but OP during progression is indeed found to be weaker in low level content. More news to follow when the scrub gets into Mythic Nighthold.
    With the new traits and few nerfs to NH bosses he would need to get to at least second half of mythic NH to notice, I'm pretty sure for example mythic Krosus is not as big of a threat as he used to be 2 months ago.

  5. #2105
    Quote Originally Posted by dcc626 View Post
    10% armor gain and the BoF reset talent as well. overall im not too upset if things go the way they seem to be headed.
    +10% of base armor is like what? 700 versatility worth of ONLY physical damage reduction? Seems quite "good".

  6. #2106
    ISB + SD change is a direct nerf to our aoe damage.

  7. #2107
    Quote Originally Posted by s4ibot View Post
    ISB + SD change is a direct nerf to our aoe damage.
    It's a buff to our AOE damage.

    What are you talking about?

  8. #2108
    Quote Originally Posted by stross01 View Post
    It's a buff to our AOE damage.

    What are you talking about?
    Well, it is kinda a nerf to our burst damage because you can't spam iron brew and not lose the duration because of the cap. The rest is basically the same not a nerf nor buff (unless we're talking stricktly about RJW).

  9. #2109
    Warchief vsb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grobovshik View Post
    Compared to what? Vengeance dh? I got both + prot warrior,I can't see how monk is too good in NH. Hes perfectly fine, but next patch he would probably receive some nerfs w/o any reason. Look hes cheesing stuff! Ok ill use my 7 min cooldown to survive, oh w8...
    My main is 906 warrior and I recently leveled 896 monk. I tried to tank Guldan hc solo few times (because other tank died) and on it wasn't easy on warrior, I was quite squishy and soaking full scythes was possible, but very risky. I had to ask for external cooldowns eventually. Yesterday I pugged Guldan hc on monk. Other tank was terrible and consistently died on phase 1 (warrior, kek), so I had to tank him all the way. I did it quite a few times and I never died, it was ridicuosly easy. Save 1 beer for 100% scythe, drink, done. For me monk and warrior are just in different categories, monk is so much better. Warrior has its strengths, of course, but I'm not even sure, which boss it's better on. May be Ariel, but she's easy anyway.

    I'm only 3/10 M atm, but I'm already preparing my monk as a replacement, I feel I'll need it. Saying that nerfs are unwarannted is not correct. But it's very easy to break monk with nerfs, its mechanics is just OP, so I agree that Blizzard should be very careful with nerfs.

  10. #2110
    Quote Originally Posted by vsb View Post
    My main is 906 warrior and I recently leveled 896 monk. I tried to tank Guldan hc solo few times (because other tank died) and on it wasn't easy on warrior, I was quite squishy and soaking full scythes was possible, but very risky. I had to ask for external cooldowns eventually. Yesterday I pugged Guldan hc on monk. Other tank was terrible and consistently died on phase 1 (warrior, kek), so I had to tank him all the way. I did it quite a few times and I never died, it was ridicuosly easy. Save 1 beer for 100% scythe, drink, done. For me monk and warrior are just in different categories, monk is so much better. Warrior has its strengths, of course, but I'm not even sure, which boss it's better on. May be Ariel, but she's easy anyway.

    I'm only 3/10 M atm, but I'm already preparing my monk as a replacement, I feel I'll need it. Saying that nerfs are unwarannted is not correct. But it's very easy to break monk with nerfs, its mechanics is just OP, so I agree that Blizzard should be very careful with nerfs.
    Taking only boss in HN where monk shines is bad, you know it (especially when solo tanking). Besides, warrior got overnerfed and needs buffs.

  11. #2111
    Bloodsail Admiral keqe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grobovshik View Post
    Taking only boss in HN where monk shines is bad, you know it (especially when solo tanking). Besides, warrior got overnerfed and needs buffs.
    On what boss monk doesn't shine?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gestopft View Post
    For everything else, there's Brewmastercard

  12. #2112
    Quote Originally Posted by vsb View Post
    My main is 906 warrior and I recently leveled 896 monk. I tried to tank Guldan hc solo few times (because other tank died) and on it wasn't easy on warrior, I was quite squishy and soaking full scythes was possible, but very risky. I had to ask for external cooldowns eventually. Yesterday I pugged Guldan hc on monk. Other tank was terrible and consistently died on phase 1 (warrior, kek), so I had to tank him all the way. I did it quite a few times and I never died, it was ridicuosly easy. Save 1 beer for 100% scythe, drink, done. For me monk and warrior are just in different categories, monk is so much better. Warrior has its strengths, of course, but I'm not even sure, which boss it's better on. May be Ariel, but she's easy anyway.

    I'm only 3/10 M atm, but I'm already preparing my monk as a replacement, I feel I'll need it. Saying that nerfs are unwarannted is not correct. But it's very easy to break monk with nerfs, its mechanics is just OP, so I agree that Blizzard should be very careful with nerfs.
    Go ask your healers about your tanking too. While you didn't die directly to scythes every healer will say that you got A LOT more damage overall and ate like x2 or even x3 of their normal amount of mana compared to any other tank. You need to see it as a raid perspective, not only tanking.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by keqe View Post
    On what boss monk doesn't shine?
    Any other boss without high damage spikes and/or very long (read: heavy on healers) encounter.

    Even Botanist is not that good for monk if you exclude the iron brew stacking abuse on first 2 phases. If you have 2 hours of it stacked and only need to purify then its obviously easy this way.
    Last edited by ReD-EyeD; 2017-04-24 at 02:03 PM.

  13. #2113
    Quote Originally Posted by ReD-EyeD View Post
    Even Botanist is not that good for monk if you exclude the iron brew stacking abuse on first 2 phases. If you have 2 hours of it stacked and only need to purify then its obviously easy this way.
    Botanist is easy boss for any tank spec. On p3 you have externals + all your cd's ready.

    " iron brew stacking abuse on first 2 phases."

    I found it hard, mostly because i constantly rolling on spores and dont wear 4tier (special thanks to titanforge system).
    Last edited by Grobovshik; 2017-04-24 at 02:17 PM.

  14. #2114
    Quote Originally Posted by Grobovshik View Post
    Botanist is easy boss for any tank spec. On p3 you have externals + all your cd's ready.
    We're talking about comparison, not overall difficulty of the encounter. And it is easy now, not when you are undergeared first weeks after the dungeon opening.

  15. #2115
    Quote Originally Posted by ReD-EyeD View Post
    We're talking about comparison, not overall difficulty of the encounter. And it is easy now, not when you are undergeared first weeks after the dungeon opening.
    Its how blizzard balance tanks nowdays. They dont care about first weeks, after that overgear fix everything. I feel more more powerful and safe with my VDH than BRM on hc Guldan (even on first week). Besides, on my realm most guilds raided with 2 bears and still is (some got 3 bears). I honestly cant see how monk was so super strong with undergear, while 100% isb with constantly purifing was hard. YOu have more damage taken then other tanks, while healers should heal all dpsers dying in voidzones.

    Most people forgot game isnt about raids anymore. In m+ tanks are more balanced, because you can use all your abilities there. When all raid encounters is only about surviving there always will 1-2 specs stronger than others when raid opens.
    Last edited by Grobovshik; 2017-04-24 at 02:52 PM.

  16. #2116
    Quote Originally Posted by Grobovshik View Post
    Its how blizzard balance tanks nowdays. They dont care about first weeks, after that overgear fix everything. I feel more more powerful and safe with my VDH than BRM on hc Guldan (even on first week). Besides, on my realm most guilds raided with 2 bears and still is (some got 3 bears). I honestly cant see how monk was so super strong with undergear, while 100% isb with constantly purifing was hard. YOu have more damage taken then other tanks, while healers should heal all dpsers dying in voidzones.

    Most people forgot game isnt about raids anymore. In m+ tanks are more balanced, because you can use all your abilities there. When all raid encounters is only about surviving there always will 1-2 specs stronger than others when raid opens.
    Yeah, pretty much this. You summarized it good.

    And the best part is that they don't want to touch the balance while content is "fresh". Like that absolutely broken 4p monks set which is why monks considered op by some people and not because of actual core mechanics.

  17. #2117
    Quote Originally Posted by Grobovshik View Post
    Botanist is easy boss for any tank spec. On p3 you have externals + all your cd's ready.

    " iron brew stacking abuse on first 2 phases."

    I found it hard, mostly because i constantly rolling on spores and dont wear 4tier (special thanks to titanforge system).
    I don't have 4tier either, but only because the only tier drops I have ever gotten are from Krosus (and I have Sal'salabim). No other boss has dropped tier for me since NH opened.

  18. #2118
    Warchief vsb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReD-EyeD View Post
    Go ask your healers about your tanking too. While you didn't die directly to scythes every healer will say that you got A LOT more damage overall and ate like x2 or even x3 of their normal amount of mana compared to any other tank. You need to see it as a raid perspective, not only tanking.
    Monk allows healers to heal efficiently. Spiky tanks force healers to use costly spells and distract them from raid. I've compared my monk with other tanks with healing received statistics, those numbers were very close. While on Krosus monk probably won't shine, that's a rare example IMO. It's usually burst damage that kills tanks. And monk has just ideal mechanics to counter that. I'm not sure about Legion, but in other addons I've played in, in later patches mana for healers was almost a non-issue and HPS too. So may be not in tomb of sargeras, but later monk potentially will be even stronger, when his only weakness won't mattter.

    On an unrelated note, can someone explain me, how bleeds work with stagger? I'm feeling like Ursoc's bleeds don't properly going into Stagger (it should be 95% of physical damage going into stagger, but it's certainly not 95%).

  19. #2119
    Quote Originally Posted by vsb View Post
    On an unrelated note, can someone explain me, how bleeds work with stagger? I'm feeling like Ursoc's bleeds don't properly going into Stagger (it should be 95% of physical damage going into stagger, but it's certainly not 95%).
    Bleeds bypass armor, and go to stagger with magic damage efficiency.

  20. #2120
    Quote Originally Posted by ReD-EyeD View Post
    Well, it is kinda a nerf to our burst damage because you can't spam iron brew and not lose the duration because of the cap. The rest is basically the same not a nerf nor buff (unless we're talking stricktly about RJW).
    What?

    You no longer get bad luck. It's a 100% chance. Using another ISB doesn't lose you anything; you aren't prevented from using another by anything.

    It's a pretty serious buff to the burst capabilities on an AOE pack.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ReD-EyeD View Post
    Any other boss without high damage spikes and/or very long (read: heavy on healers) encounter.

    Even Botanist is not that good for monk if you exclude the iron brew stacking abuse on first 2 phases. If you have 2 hours of it stacked and only need to purify then its obviously easy this way.
    Botanist is a tremendously good fight for brewmaster, as there are no long-term cooldowns needed, meaning you can just tank it again after you break, preventing a swap at all.

    As for how difficult it was during its new period, it was basically a free kill; easiest fight after Krosus, sometimes even before him.

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