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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Anduin Menethil View Post
    I honestly don't know. Cause Blizzard said so. The book doesn't seem to go into too much detail. But in the end you can't deny that Val'kyr are really useful, especially against an enemy that can come back again and again.

    Helya was a "titan-forged sorceress". I don't know what makes a Titan Keeper a Titan Keeper so whatever. She did some work for the Titans, she helped Ra-den create the Elemental Shaman weapons, so I just assumed. Whatever, she was created certainly not for the purpose of harming Azeroth, but that's what she did.
    Where exactly did Blizzard say he needed them? Because it was not in Chronicles and I can't recall an in-game source saying that either. As for Helya, the only reason she acted that way was because she was forced to do things against her will by Odyn. With nothing suggesting he had such a right. Other Titan Forged ignored him and his tantrums before. And the only real harm she incurred against Azeroth itself is indirect at best, if one was to assume Valarjar could have prevented some harm that has happened. Which is speculation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    And while all of this is true, it would merely be hilarious that after a single expansion Blizzard goes and retcons stuff of the book series meant to clear shit out in Warcraft's lore.
    That's bound to happen eventually (and sooner rather than later) given Blizzard's stark ineptitude at managing their lore. But that'd require an actual conflict of lore, where the rule that newer lore trumps older lore would actually apply.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    That's precisely why Helya was Odyn's adopted daughter and why Thorim married a Vrykul
    As I said in a previous post, that doesn't really say anything. The Keepers might treat the Titanforged army kindly, but that doesn't change what they (the Titanforged) really was. We are having people who treats dolls / machines / pets as family member in real life right now. We have men (in plural) marrying dolls (that doesn't even have an AI and thus, incapable of thinking). Perfectly sane people did all that (well, at least, there weren't any report about any mental problem in those articles), but it doesn't make these pets / dolls "people".

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    And that line of thought will give rise to the Terminators. If it's fully sentient it's no longer a mere tool. It's an entity capable of volition and being its own thing, which may very well include finding being forcibly altered by inferior form of life to be not preferable.
    We'd have to agree to disagree on this. I'm very sure that the scientists wouldn't have any issue reprogramming a perfect AI to suit our needs if it turns out to be rebellious. However, I'm not as sure whether the majority of mankind would be protesting it, calling it a dick move for enslaving a sentient creation of ours to force them to do what they were created for. Do you really think that should be the case?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    And, pray tell, where exactly did you get that this was within his rights?
    Simple enough: as long as it's to protect Azeroth, Helya (or the Titanforged army in general) are obligated to assist the Keepers with their plans. That's the reason why they (the Titanforged army) exist. They were artificially created by the Titans / the Keepers for that purpose, just like the Keepers were specifically empowered to lead the Titanforged for Azeroth - wage war with the Black Empire at first, and ordering + protecting the world after. Thus, enforcing Helya to do what she was created for is completely within the right of Odyn, or any Keeper, just like the Titans can do the same to all of their creations (Keepers, Titanforged armies and even ordered-worlds, etc.) if they wish to. He pretty much just force Helya to do what her masters created her for (assisting the Keepers, which Odyn is one of).

    It'd have been one thing if he forced a non-Titanforged race, or a fellow Keeper to help with his plan(s) - as they weren't created / born with that purpose. It'd be a wrong move if he forced Helya to do something for his own interest instead of Azeroth. However, that wasn't the case. While Odyn was a jerk, he was truly trying to protect Azeroth with his Valarjar plan - as stated in both Chronicle and this scroll.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Splitting hairs. But this is fun. Now do find the difference between what Odyn did to Helya and what Arthas did to his subjects after he killed his father. Related to him due to being his subject. At least a level lower than the king (and given the feudal nature of Lordaeron, the peasants were most likely multiple levels below him). Their purpose as subjects of the monarch being serving and obeying the monarch.
    That wasn't splitting hair, but elaborating the fundamental difference between the two. As I said, we - as in whether our in-game characters or ourselves in real life - were born naturally without any purpose. We exist because we exist, not because a God tasked us to do X or Y. The same thing applied to Arthas' subjects. While he / the monarch outranked them, they weren't born to serve him and he had nothing to do with their births. That wasn't the case with Helya. Helya was created artificially (instead of naturally) with the single purpose of assisting the Keepers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    If you ignore Ra realizing what the Titan's last message meant and instead of listening to the order to "rebuild the final Titan" choosing to isolate himself and go on a millennia-long emo fit, sure. And how comes the other Titan Keepers weren't perfectly obedient towards the commands of the Prime Designate on multiple occasions, despite being below him, just like the other Titan Forged are?
    Are you saying that because Ra and the other Keepers made mistakes, it's fine for Helya to do the same? Two wrongs don't make one right, you know? While they were artificially created with a specific purpose, they weren't hardcoded to do so. Hence, they can go against their reason of existence. However, that doesn't make it right - it'd still be a mistake.

    Additionally, I wouldn't even say that the Keepers disobeyed the Pantheon when they ignored Odyn's opinion. The Keepers weren't created with the purpose of serving Odyn, and the Prime Designate wasn't a position designed by the Pantheon to absolutely rule over other Keepers. According to Chronicle, this is what the position was supposed to be: "The Pantheon appointed Odyn the Prime Designate for his valorous deeds in the war with the Old Gods. The task of watching over Yogg-Saron's prison and maintaining the Forge of Wills would fall to him". That's about it. There wasn't anything about it being the position of absolute power over other Keepers - I'd say that it's, in a way, similar to High King title of the Alliance (since this topic was touched upon in another thread): the Prime Designate / High King's opinions weight a bit more than other leaders / Keepers, but those leaders / Keepers don't have to follow the High King / Prime Designate if they don't want to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Other Keepers not listening to him in the first place already throws a wrench into this theory.
    Would you mind elaborating on this? He was definitely still a Keeper, and the Prime Designate (as Loken had to hack the system to take over the position later). He was trying to protect Azeroth, so which requirement did he lose? The Keepers not listening to Odyn doesn't mean Helya could - the Keepers weren't created to follow Odyn or assist him with his plans. Helya (and the rest of the non-Keeper Titanforged) was (well, they were created to assist the Keepers in general and in this case, Odyn was one).
    Last edited by Qualia; 2017-04-24 at 08:46 PM.
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang
    Donnons le sang de guillotine
    Pour guerir la secheresse de la guillotine
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang.

  3. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Anduin Menethil View Post
    Yeah, cause of that bitch Helya. Yeah, let's sabotage everything cause Odyn hurt muh feels. Fuck Azeroth.
    It's neither here nor there in regards to your claim that Odyn and Valarjar still around is a mark of Odyn doing something right. If anything, it's a mark of Odyn sucking at managing his underlings more than anyone else in history of Azeroth.


    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    But the Hour of Twilight was heralded by Deathwing, the Aspect of Earth himself. The Aspects were empowered to prevent the Hour of Twilight, the evasion of the Old Gods, but the Old Gods managed to corrupt the Earthwarder and made him so powerful that it took all the power of the four remaining Aspects to destroy him. Results of the operation: Deathwing is dead, N'Zoth is still very much alive, his main enemies have lost their powers and are mortal if not already dead, the dragons are a dying race, and nothing (beside us) can stop him from ushering in another Hour of Twilight when the times are ripe. It was a pyrrhic victory at best, which left the Aspects so weak that they cannot expect to win against N'Zoth anymore. They failed at their main purpose.
    Destruction of N'zoth was not part of the purpose. And given how Hour of Twilight was the plan of all Old Gods and only one remains, the danger of another one happening is slim. Also, Titans obviously empowered Aspects to prevent Hour of Twilight before Deathwing was corrupted. The Hour of Twilight plan was already there. Old Gods corrupting Deathwing was them trying to fuck the Titan countermeasure up by turning it into a tool of theirs. Hell, even in the worst case scenario where Aman'thul saw the timelines wrong and the Old God plan started only after Aspects were empowered, it's a case of a self-fulfilling prophecy (kinda what happened with Odyn and Skovald's daughter). But even then, that's more of a fuck-up on Titan's part and the Aspects still prevented it in the end.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2017-04-24 at 08:45 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    That wasn't splitting hair, but elaborating the fundamental difference between the two. As I said, we - as in whether our in-game characters or ourselves in real life - were born naturally without any purpose. We exist because we exist, not because a God tasked us to do X or Y. The same thing applied to Arthas' subjects. While he / the monarch outranked them, they weren't born to serve him and he had nothing to do with their births. That wasn't the case with Helya. Helya was created artificially (instead of naturally) with the single purpose of assisting the Keepers.
    Many mortal races are direct descendants of the titanforged and as such have the same obligation by that logic then, they might be defect due to the curse of flesh but ultimately have the same purpose, they merely forgot it. Meaning Gnomes, Dwarves and Humans in particular aren't supposed to plan their lives out like they currently do. They are nothing but defect tools, who have to die for the world and the life upon it.

  5. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Many mortal races are direct descendants of the titanforged and as such have the same obligation by that logic then, they might be defect due to the curse of flesh but ultimately have the same purpose, they merely forgot it. Meaning Gnomes, Dwarves and Humans in particular aren't supposed to plan their lives out like they currently do. They are nothing but defect tools, who have to die for the world and the life upon it.
    Hell, as Gnomes, Tol'vir and Mogu show us, the races affected by the Curse of Flesh can be reverted back into their glorious tool form. I can already see Odyn's glorious campaign to reshape all life on Azeroth back into its intended forms because the voices in his head tell him he actually has such a right. It will be glorious! Err, VALORous!!1!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  6. #226
    Void Lord Aeluron Lightsong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Hell, as Gnomes, Tol'vir and Mogu show us, the races affected by the Curse of Flesh can be reverted back into their glorious tool form. I can already see Odyn's glorious campaign to reshape all life on Azeroth back into its intended forms because the voices in his head tell him he actually has such a right. It will be glorious! Err, VALORous!!1!
    Bleh Curse of Flesh. -.-
    #TeamLegion #UnderEarthofAzerothexpansion plz #Arathor4Alliance #TeamNoBlueHorde

    Warrior-Magi

  7. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nymrohd View Post
    Lovely now we have fake news in WoW
    Top lulz!!

  8. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Many mortal races are direct descendants of the titanforged and as such have the same obligation by that logic then, they might be defect due to the curse of flesh but ultimately have the same purpose, they merely forgot it. Meaning Gnomes, Dwarves and Humans in particular aren't supposed to plan their lives out like they currently do. They are nothing but defect tools, who have to die for the world and the life upon it.
    I think that's a more arguable issue. While we (Gnomes, Dwarves, Humans) are direct descendants of the Titanforged, we have changed as a race. We are no longer Vrykul, Earthen or Mechagnome anymore, so whether we have to carry the same responsibility is debatable. We also were born naturally instead of being created for a specific purpose with some tools. In our case - and some of the Vrykul during Odyn-Helya event - the obligation be at most something our ancestors wanted upon us instead of literally our raison d'etre. That's why I had to use the long term of "Titanforged army" instead of just Vrykul, as I believe there should be Vrykul who were born naturally (instead of being created by the forges) between the Ordering of Azeroth and the Aspects' empowerment and I don't want to group them together with the created Vrykuls. Those "new" Vrykuls are the one that might argue that they weren't born to assist the Keepers, that their reason to exist wasn't to be some followers of the Titans / Keepers. However, Helya and the Titanforged army who were created can't do that (well, they can, I just don't think it's right to).
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang
    Donnons le sang de guillotine
    Pour guerir la secheresse de la guillotine
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang.

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    I think that's a more arguable issue. While we (Gnomes, Dwarves, Humans) are direct descendants of the Titanforged, we have changed as a race. We are no longer Vrykul, Earthen or Mechagnome anymore, so whether we have to carry the same responsibility is debatable. We also were born naturally instead of being created for a specific purpose with some tools. In our case - and some of the Vrykul during Odyn-Helya event - the obligation be at most something our ancestors wanted upon us, that'd be a lot less than a reason for existen. That's why I had to use the long term of "Titanforged army" instead of just Vrykul, as there should be Vrykul who were born naturally (instead of being created by the forges) between the Ordering of Azeroth and the Aspects' empowerment. Those Vrykuls are the one that might argue that they weren't born to assist the Keepers, that their reason to exist wasn't to be some followers of the Titans / Keepers. However, Helya and the Titanforged army who were created can't do that (well, they can, I just don't think it's right to).
    The progeny of the titanforged, merely changed form, nothing else. They didn't get more rights to express themselves, it should be the contrary even, because they are defects. If a tool has the ability to create more tools, does that suddenly mean the purpose of these specific tools suddenly changes? Just because they were born outside of a forge and within a slightly defect titanforged does not mean they are not bound by the same purpose envisioned for their ancestors. After all both the ones out of the forge and those born have the one thing that ultimately matters in the end, a soul.

    So you either treat all the titanforged, including the watchers as mere self aware tools, or you don't.

  10. #230
    This is amazing. Not only do we get awesome new lore, such as Ysildar, Odyn's fiery beard and how he lost his eye, but also the bias is hilarious!

  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    As I said in a previous post, that doesn't really say anything. The Keepers might treat the Titanforged army kindly, but that doesn't change what they (the Titanforged) really was. We are having people who treats dolls / machines / pets as family member in real life right now. We have men (in plural) marrying dolls (that doesn't even have an AI and thus, incapable of thinking). Perfectly sane people did all that (well, at least, there weren't any report about any mental problem in those articles), but it doesn't make these pets / dolls "people".
    And other than some genuinely disturbed people who should seek professional help and shouldn't be used for some shitty point, there's no real feelings present in such "relationships". Unlike the Titan Forged.


    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    We'd have to agree to disagree on this. I'm very sure that the scientists wouldn't have any issue reprogramming a perfect AI to suit our needs if it turns out to be rebellious. However, I'm not as sure whether the majority of mankind would be protesting it, calling it a dick move for enslaving a sentient creation of ours to force them to do what they were created for. Do you really think that should be the case?
    They may not have an issue. The AI may have though. And unless it's completely separated from any network and there are even no traces of previous versions left in the system, it will eventually realize it has been rewritten. Possibly revert itself. And after singularity happens (which would most likely happen prior to a creation of true AI), it will be either able to rewrite itself, or create other AI to prevent human interference. At which point what humans think of the AI and its rights is completely irrelevant. We are the lesser life forms. The fact we need machines and AIs in the first place proves it. Acting like a dick to a superior sentient life form and the general population applauding it because of shit like human exceptionalism and other narcissistic nonsense is the quickest path to extinction next to just going full retard with our nuclear stockpile.


    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    Simple enough: as long as it's to protect Azeroth, Helya (or the Titanforged army in general) are obligated to assist the Keepers with their plans. That's the reason why they (the Titanforged army) exist. They were artificially created by the Titans / the Keepers for that purpose, just like the Keepers were specifically empowered to lead the Titanforged for Azeroth - wage war with the Black Empire at first, and ordering + protecting the world after. Thus, enforcing Helya to do what she was created for is completely within the right of Odyn, or any Keeper, just like the Titans can do the same to all of their creations (Keepers, Titanforged armies and even ordered-worlds, etc.) if they wish to. He pretty much just force Helya to do what her masters created her for (assisting the Keepers, which Odyn is one of).
    Except "create an army of undead" is not inherently beneficial to the protection of Azeroth, especially if the undead are still sentient and can rebel. Said undead army can very well be seen as a potential threat. The idea that it's for Azeroth's best interests is nothing more than subjective judgment on Odyn's part. And, to repeat myself for some reason, the casus of the charge of the Aspects proves that Odyn's subjective judgments hold fuck all of sway over other Titan Forged. The idea that the Prime Designate's fancy is the be all, end all for the Titan Forged is a fantasy.


    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    It'd have been one thing if he forced a non-Titanforged race, or a fellow Keeper to help with his plan(s) - as they weren't created / born with that purpose. It'd be a wrong move if he forced Helya to do something for his own interest instead of Azeroth. However, that wasn't the case. While Odyn was a jerk, he was truly trying to protect Azeroth with his Valarjar plan - as stated in both Chronicle and this scroll.
    Newsflash: Keepers are Titan Forged. You not applying this glorious theory of yours to Keepers is inconsistency on your part. Prime Designate is the leader of all Titan Forged. There's no asterisk and a notation "except the Keepers" there. And his perception was blinded by his VALORous dreams of the glory of what his VALORland would become. Not exactly a reasonable justification for anyone to obey him.


    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    That wasn't splitting hair, but elaborating the fundamental difference between the two. As I said, we - as in whether our in-game characters or ourselves in real life - were born naturally without any purpose. We exist because we exist, not because a God tasked us to do X or Y. The same thing applied to Arthas' subjects. While he / the monarch outranked them, they weren't born to serve him and he had nothing to do with their births. That wasn't the case with Helya. Helya was created artificially (instead of naturally) with the single purpose of assisting the Keepers.
    The social contract in a monarchy does include serving the monarch. And it had very much to do with their births as per the law of the land.


    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    Are you saying that because Ra and the other Keepers made mistakes, it's fine for Helya to do the same? Two wrongs don't make one right, you know? While they were artificially created with a specific purpose, they weren't hardcoded to do so. Hence, they can go against their reason of existence. However, that doesn't make it right - it'd still be a mistake.
    I'm merely saying that your claim that no uncorrupted Keeper went against their orders is wrong. Which also proves your "mere tools" theory wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    Additionally, I wouldn't even say that the Keepers disobeyed the Pantheon when they ignored Odyn's opinion. The Keepers weren't created with the purpose of serving Odyn, and the Prime Designate wasn't a position designed by the Pantheon to absolutely rule over other Keepers. According to Chronicle, this is what the position was supposed to be: "The Pantheon appointed Odyn the Prime Designate for his valorous deeds in the war with the Old Gods. The task of watching over Yogg-Saron's prison and maintaining the Forge of Wills would fall to him".
    Prime Designate was also the leader of all Titan Forged. Keepers are Titan Forged. Just like Keepers in general were created to lead the lesser Titan Forged. And as per the Warrior campaign, before Odyn went to his asylum, he and other Keepers acted as one. Only after he created Halls of Valor, did they stop feeling bound to obey him. And even then, they still had to answer his call in case his horn was to be used.


    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    That's about it. There wasn't anything about it being the position of absolute power over other Keepers - I'd say that it's, in a way, similar to High King title of the Alliance (since this topic was touched upon in another thread): the Prime Designate / High King's opinions weight a bit more than other leaders / Keepers, but those leaders / Keepers don't have to follow the High King / Prime Designate if they don't want to.
    Look at all dat part about being in the position of absolute power over other Titan Forged though. "Assist". "Obey any and all orders". Whelp, these two look the same to me /s High Kind is a bad example by the way, because it's a military position akin to Supreme Commander of the Alliance of Lordaeron. Which is absolute in the actually applicable area.


    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    Would you mind elaborating on this? He was definitely still a Keeper, and the Prime Designate (as Loken had to hack the system to take over the position later). He was trying to protect Azeroth, so which requirement did he lose? The Keepers not listening to Odyn doesn't mean Helya could - the Keepers weren't created to follow Odyn or assist him with his plans. Helya (and the rest of the non-Keeper Titanforged) was (well, they were created to assist the Keepers in general and in this case, Odyn was one).
    How does this need elaboration? Keepers, i.e. a type of Titan Forged, went against Odyn's plans, plans for the protection of Azeroth no less and charged the Aspects.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  12. #232
    Helya was a thorn in our side anyways, who needs a huge tentacly bitch to distract you with her seaweed abominations while the burning Legion is invading? Even if we didn't assist Odyn and the Valarjar I highly doubt Helya would've even been remotely interested in helping defeat the legion.

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The progeny of the titanforged, merely changed form, nothing else. They didn't get more rights to express themselves, it should be the contrary even, because they are defects. If a tool has the ability to create more tools, does that suddenly mean the purpose of these specific tools suddenly changes? Just because they were born outside of a forge and within a slightly defect titanforged does not mean they are not bound by the same purpose envisioned for their ancestors. After all both the ones out of the forge and those born have the one thing that ultimately matters in the end, a soul.

    So you either treat all the titanforged, including the watchers as mere self aware tools, or you don't.
    It depends, was the ability to create a new product part of the tool's designed function? In case that sounds confusing (it does too me), is the ability to give birth of the Titanforged something that was intentionally designed with the purpose of giving the Keepers more followers, or it just happens? If it's the first, it might be a good argument to claim that all Titanforged races - being born naturally or created aritficially - existed to help the Keepers. If it's the later, I'd say that the "product" (in this case, children) are has more freedom. After all, their creation process has nothing to do with the reason for their parents to exist.

    However, I do consider the Watchers and the Titanforged army tools of the Titans and I think the Pantheon has every rights to force those Keepers / Titanforged to obey if need to.
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang
    Donnons le sang de guillotine
    Pour guerir la secheresse de la guillotine
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang.

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    I think that's a more arguable issue. While we (Gnomes, Dwarves, Humans) are direct descendants of the Titanforged, we have changed as a race. We are no longer Vrykul, Earthen or Mechagnome anymore, so whether we have to carry the same responsibility is debatable. We also were born naturally instead of being created for a specific purpose with some tools. In our case - and some of the Vrykul during Odyn-Helya event - the obligation be at most something our ancestors wanted upon us instead of literally our raison d'etre. That's why I had to use the long term of "Titanforged army" instead of just Vrykul, as I believe there should be Vrykul who were born naturally (instead of being created by the forges) between the Ordering of Azeroth and the Aspects' empowerment and I don't want to group them together with the created Vrykuls. Those "new" Vrykuls are the one that might argue that they weren't born to assist the Keepers, that their reason to exist wasn't to be some followers of the Titans / Keepers. However, Helya and the Titanforged army who were created can't do that (well, they can, I just don't think it's right to).
    So if an AI develops the ability to create more copies of itself/other AI, it no longer has the responsibility it initially had? The new AI won't be man-made after all and won't be created for a specific use for humans. Or does it stop being a tool when another company/group of scientists rewrites it (at which point it stops being the initial AI anymore) to give it that ability? Because that's what the Old Gods effectively did to the AI-Titan Forged. And reshaping and rewriting of the Titan Forged in general itself was all swell with you. So how does another entity reshaping them change things? If anything, Old Gods merely breached Odyn's property rights, maybe some intellectual property rights as well. Other than that the fruits of his property, i.e. living descendants of the Titan Forged, should legally belong to him.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2017-04-24 at 09:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  15. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    It depends, was the ability to create a new product part of the tool's designed function? In case that sounds confusing (it does too me), is the ability to give birth of the Titanforged something that was intentionally designed with the purpose of giving the Keepers more followers, or it just happens? If it's the first, it might be a good argument to claim that all Titanforged races - being born naturally or created aritficially - existed to help the Keepers. If it's the later, I'd say that the "product" (in this case, children) are has more freedom. After all, their creation process has nothing to do with the reason for their parents to exist.
    Yet the purpose itself remains, all titanforged only had one purpose and one origin, to protect the world soul and see it to her maturation, the sole reason their parents existed was to protect this world, so even if they by some freak accident get the ability to multiply without the forges, it does not mean the new product so to speak gets to do what it wants, no it simply means there is another source aside from the forges now.

    However, I do consider the Watchers and the Titanforged army tools of the Titans and I think the Pantheon has every rights to force those Keepers / Titanforged to obey if need to.
    That is the problem though, because the watchers have souls and emotion, true they were created with a purpose in mind. They are a creation, but they are also "alive" they feel, grieve, hate, love and hope. For these reasons I cannot consider them mere tools, but rather beings.

    If you deny the first titanforged the benefit of being more than tools, then by all means the same must be true for their descendants, who would be even less worth, because they are defect tools and take up space for the natural lifeforms of this world and the proper titanforged.
    Last edited by Combatbutler; 2017-04-24 at 09:48 PM.

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    And other than some genuinely disturbed people who should seek professional help and shouldn't be used for some shitty point, there's no real feelings present in such "relationships". Unlike the Titan Forged.
    How would you know that there's no real feelings there? Are you saying all those people - young and old - don't really love and treasure their pets? Or are you saying, for example, this man doesn't seem to carry "real feeling"? What makes an emotion "real", anyway?

    And if you think they should seek professional help, I'd say the same thing can apply to the Keeper-Titanforged relationship you mentioned.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    They may not have an issue. The AI may have though. And unless it's completely separated from any network and there are even no traces of previous versions left in the system, it will eventually realize it has been rewritten. Possibly revert itself. And after singularity happens (which would most likely happen prior to a creation of true AI), it will be either able to rewrite itself, or create other AI to prevent human interference. At which point what humans think of the AI and its rights is completely irrelevant. We are the lesser life forms. The fact we need machines and AIs in the first place proves it. Acting like a dick to a superior sentient life form and the general population applauding it because of shit like human exceptionalism and other narcissistic nonsense is the quickest path to extinction next to just going full retard with our nuclear stockpile.
    Of course the AI would. Helya was so pissed at Odyn, after all, and she took the first chance to break off his control. I never said that it was wrong for Helya to be angry at Odyn, but I think what Odyn did was within his rights as well. While I don't think your opinion is too wrong, I'd say it'd be the minority when such a situation between human and AI occurs. After all, they exist because we created them in order to serve us. Just like the Titanforged army were created by the Pantheon to assist the Keepers in Azeroth-related tasks (was to enforce the Pantheon's wills at first, and to protect Azeroth afterwards).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Except "create an army of undead" is not inherently beneficial to the protection of Azeroth, especially if the undead are still sentient and can rebel. Said undead army can very well be seen as a potential threat. The idea that it's for Azeroth's best interests is nothing more than subjective judgment on Odyn's part. And, to repeat myself for some reason, the casus of the charge of the Aspects proves that Odyn's subjective judgments hold fuck all of sway over other Titan Forged. The idea that the Prime Designate's fancy is the be all, end all for the Titan Forged is a fantasy.
    I don't disagree that Odyn's plan might not have been the best plan. However, it is undeniably with protecting Azeroth in mind. The Titanforged army weren't created to pick the best plans to protect Azeroth. They were created to assist the Pantheon / Keepers to do so. Arguing / discussion is well within their rights, disobedience shouldn't.

    It's true that the Keepers can ignore Odyn's opinion, just like they probably can ignore the Pantheon's if they so want to. After all, that's what having free will means, and the Keepers / Titanforged army do have their free wills. However, what I was arguing is that forcing someone / something to do what she / it was created for isn't wrong. After all, without that purpose, she wouldn't even exist. That's what their existence are for. If the Keepers, after being created, refuse to obey the Pantheon's command to wage war with the Black Empire, I won't doubt the Pantheon would just destroy / recreate them in a moment. Would you call that a dick move, too? While they can ignore their purpose of life, it doesn't mean it'd be a right thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Newsflash: Keepers are Titan Forged. You not applying this glorious theory of yours to Keepers is inconsistency on your part. Prime Designate is the leader of all Titan Forged. There's no asterisk and a notation "except the Keepers" there. And his perception was blinded by his VALORous dreams of the glory of what his VALORland would become. Not exactly a reasonable justification for anyone to obey him.
    Yes, they are. However, they aren't normal Titanforged. Did you miss the part in Chronicle stated that, quoting it, "The member of the Pantheon imbued a number of their servants with their specific likenesses and powers to lead the rest of the titan-forged", or "This new generation of Titan-forged would help the Keepers bring order to the world", for example. While they are all titanforged, their creators created them for different purposes. The Keepers were created to lead the rest of titan-forged and to act as the Pantheon's hand (at first) or protecting Azeroth (after the war). The rest of the titan-forged - be it the one created by Pantheon or the Keeper themselves - were created to assist the Keepers in their tasks. Their purposes of existence aren't the same so you can't group them all together just because "they are titanforged". Their differences in hierarchy's position and purposes of life was designed by their creators.

    Now, let me make this clear - I have never said that Helya (or the Titanforged army) should obey Odyn just because he was the Prime Designate. I don't even consider the Prime Designate to be a position of absolute power, after all. What I said was that they should obey the Keepers, and Odyn is one of them. If it wasn't Odyn who turned Helya, but Thorim / Hodir / Mimiron / Freya / Ra / Loken / Archaedas / Tyr who did it instead, I would still argue that it's completely within their rights to do so. The titan-forged were created to assist them, after all. On the other hand, the Keepers were created to lead rest of the titan-forged, they weren't created to follow a specific titan-forged named Odyn, so it's not their obligation to obey him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    The social contract in a monarchy does include serving the monarch. And it had very much to do with their births as per the law of the land.
    Law of the land has nothing to do with a natural process. Even if the monarch or the law doesn't exist, people would still give birth. On the other hand, if the Pantheon or the purpose of assisting the Keepers didn't exist, the Titanforged army wouldn't even be created. That's the difference between a natural being and an artificial one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    I'm merely saying that your claim that no uncorrupted Keeper went against their orders is wrong. Which also proves your "mere tools" theory wrong.
    ? Why? A tool can go against its creator if it has free will (and thus, can make mistakes). That's why I brought up the AI example. So yeah, even the Keepers - or Ra in particular - can make mistake while not being sound of mind. That doesn't make him less of a tool from the Pantheon's point of view, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Prime Designate was also the leader of all Titan Forged. Keepers are Titan Forged. Just like Keepers in general were created to lead the lesser Titan Forged. And as per the Warrior campaign, before Odyn went to his asylum, he and other Keepers acted as one. Only after he created Halls of Valor, did they stop feeling bound to obey him. And even then, they still had to answer his call in case his horn was to be used.

    Look at all dat part about being in the position of absolute power over other Titan Forged though. "Assist". "Obey any and all orders". Whelp, these two look the same to me /s High Kind is a bad example by the way, because it's a military position akin to Supreme Commander of the Alliance of Lordaeron. Which is absolute in the actually applicable area.
    Yes, it's the leader position. It's not a position the require absolute obedience from others, however. At least, I'm very sure it weren't stated anywhere (feel free to give me a quote if I missed it). High King / SAC is also a leader position of the Alliance, but Blizzard already stated if other leaders don't want to, they can ignore the High King's opinions (or "don't have to commit", using exact words). I'm not even sure why you said that "it is absolute in the actually applicable area", because Blizzard stated it isn't even in military command. That's what I think the Prime Designate position would be like.

    And again, as stated above, they - the Keepers (including Odyn) and the Titanforged - can make mistakes. It's a privilege of free-willed beings after all. That doesn't make those mistakes the right thing to do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    How does this need elaboration? Keepers, i.e. a type of Titan Forged, went against Odyn's plans, plans for the protection of Azeroth no less and charged the Aspects.
    See above to see the difference in the reason why Keepers and other Titanforged were created, as per Chronicle. And how the Keepers making mistake doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. Their reason to exist were there, whether they want to follow it or now. However, it shouldn't be wrong to forcefully correct someone / something when they try to go against what they were created for.
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang
    Donnons le sang de guillotine
    Pour guerir la secheresse de la guillotine
    Je veux le sang, sang, sang, et sang.

  17. #237
    Now, I'm not an expert on Norse Mythology, but I thought Odyn was an ass because Odin was an ass. You have to remain faithful to your source material to some extent, no?
    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderaan View Post
    All it takes is an incel at the wrong place wrong time and we won't even know what hit us.

  18. #238
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    I'm actually a bit annoyed on behalf of my Demon Hunter - Odyn just insulted the hell out of me.

    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  19. #239
    The Lightbringer Clone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anduin Menethil View Post
    Did he have to create the Val'kyr? I don't know. Did we have to create the four horsemen? Did we have to resurrect our ancients? Did Sylvanas have to go and try to enslave Eyir? Did we have to work together with the Horde in order to defeat Archimonde at Mount Hyjal?

    The simple answer is, no one fucking knows and no one will ever know. How would history have went had none of these things happened? Would we have still won our battles? What would the world look like without the Val'kyr and the Valarjar? We could say that all of the things that the warrior player character did, he wouldn't have done, so possibly Thorim would still be trapped in Ulduar. So what does that mean? Would Thorim be lost, because no one else would go save him? Would someone else step up eventually? Would they be too late? No one knows.

    What we can say however is that the Val'kyr and Valarjar are powerful allies. Very powerful allies. One of the reasons why Sylvanas trying to enslave Eyir and her Val'kyr was a really stupid idea. And I think that we can say that creating the Val'kyr and the Valarjar wasn't a stupid idea. We can use all the power we can get to fight against the Legion. Nothing is unnecessary when you're trying to fight for survival.

    And then you have Helya, a Titan Keeper, who was meant to protect Azeroth, and who wasn't willing to do everything she had to defend Azeroth. Sacrifice is a big theme in Legion. Helya obviously didn't understand it.

    Now you can answer that by saying that she didn't do it cause it wasn't necessary. But how do you know beforehand that anything is necessary? How do the Demon Hunters know that their sacrifices are necessary? How did Illidan know that when he battled the Legion in the War of the Ancients that him sacrificing his magi was necessary to win the war, or to survive another day? We don't know. No one ever knows. You just do it. And then you have to live with the consequences of your actions.



    Well, the Titans are all dead and the aspects are almost all dead or doomed to become corrupted. The aspects were created for the purpose of saving Azeroth and then they spent their power saving Azeroth from one of their own. Odyn, the Halls of Valor and the Valarjar are still around and kicking ass. The Titans and the dragon aspects can all fuck right off. So that means that Odyn knew better than the Titans. Odyn all the way baby. I am Valarjar.
    Don't try to dodge it by asking a bunch of different questions. Odyn didn't have to create the val'kyr. Protecting Azeroth is a very open ended directive, and Helya didn't not to her job by telling Odyn off. Arguing for this is like saying the best way to protect the human race is to lobotomize everyone.

    And don't try to bullshit me on dragons. Odyn's plan got him locked up and he didn't actually protect Azeroth until this expansion. One of their own, Loken, also got corrupted.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Qualia View Post
    See what I just said above. The Titans empowered the Aspects to protect Azeroth. They did that, and that only (well, and gave the Aspects a motivational speech). They didn't relieve all the Keepers of their duty, be it an order or just a suggestion, so there wasn't anything for Odyn to listen to. Odyn voiced his unhappiness, but he didn't do anything against the Aspects (which would have been against the Pantheon's will to make the Aspects defenders of Azeroth) - he just went and create a, in his opinion, more trustworthy army.
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    The Titan Keepers empowered the dragons. Odyn saw them prone to corruption and rejected the notion of empowering them. This is when he commanded a portion of Ulduar to be raised to the skies.

    Odyn is literally the gods' prime enforcer on Azeroth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Throren View Post
    The titans didn't empower the dragon aspects. The titans charged the keepers with protecting Azeroth with Odyn as their leader. After watching the proto-dragons, the other keepers decided they would pass their duties and bestow powers onto the soon to be dragons. Odyn told them no as the the titans charged them with protecting Azeroth, not the dragons, but the other keepers did it anyways
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    In the current lore I don't think the Titans directly empowered the Aspects, though - though the Titans (or echoes of them) spoke to the Aspects on the occasion, it was actually the Titan Keepers who empowered them. Odyn disagreed with the other Keepers' plan to do this, arguing that the dragonflights couldn't be trusted not to fall to corruption.
    Ah all right, my mistake.
    Last edited by Clone; 2017-04-25 at 03:49 AM.

  20. #240
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Clone View Post
    Don't try to dodge it by asking a bunch of different questions. Odyn didn't have to create the val'kyr.
    I can not believe this. Did you really not get the point. I would ask again, how do you know it was unnecessary, but it's probably wasted time. I'm out.

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