Castigator Viable?

[Deleted]

So is Castigator something you can run with or is it just complete shit compared to CS?

[Rixarius]

Well it's about as viable as you'd expect. Unholy isn't as good as Frost already, and Castigator isn't as good as CS. There are a few highly parsed DKs using it on some Heroic bosses. It does offer some burst if you pair it with the bursting sores talent during cleave.

[Kendros]

Cast is totally viable, specialy with the new traits you just lose the advantage of being half ranged and possibly higher aoe.

[Maxweii]

Castigator was viable before the new traits, and is still with them as well. The new traits don't offer any more benefit to CS than they do Cast, and vice versa.
It's just a matter of Cast not being the "popular" talent, like how CS used to not be (as CS was viable since 7.0).

[Deleted]

So, does anyone have an idea if there are any crit breakpoints that i should keep in mind. And what legendaries perform the best?

[Angeredsoul]

You'll want around 30% crit and ideally the bracers Lego.

[Kendros]

Castigator was viable before the new traits, and is still with them as well. The new traits don't offer any more benefit to CS than they do Cast, and vice versa.
It's just a matter of Cast not being the "popular" talent, like how CS used to not be (as CS was viable since 7.0).

Yeah because the new wounds trait doesnt favor cast more than CS, stfu dude go back to your fail sims.

[Raiz]

Yeah because the new wounds trait doesnt favor cast more than CS, stfu dude go back to your fail sims.

Wow, there's absolutely no need to be aggressive. At least he put a lot of work for the CS talent. Can we say the same to you ? Stay polite please.

[Maxweii]

Yeah because the new wounds trait doesnt favor cast more than CS, stfu dude go back to your fail sims.

Castigator pops, slightly, more wounds than Clawing Shadows.
Clawing Shadows has consistently higher damage wounds.
Thus, this balances out and they gain the same amount from increased wound damage (and as a result as well, the bracers or Black Claws).

[nicola87]

if it's a matter of numbers i think both have comparable ones...but CS build is a lot more viable in movement scenarios..and ofc in M+

[Deleted]

Castigator (assuming BS and IC are taken) can do well under specific scenarios and gears sets. It's ST can be similar, but where it shines is sustainable cleave on seconday targets that live long enough, without you having to sacrifice your rotation, where wound damage is multiplied by 100% of the time the next target is up, as well as disease damage. There is also potential cleave through SS if you can afford the runes on DnD, but only if there are enough targets to warrant so.

Essentially for the new patch, castigator works very well with the new change to DC, making it almost a direct buff in damage. You swap CS and Plague damage for Festering wounds and Festering strikes damage increases, with a more dynamic and free rotation compared to the classic necrosis playstyle (I also found an increase for overall DC damage but I only managed 5 parses so far). You do need decent relics, FS/DT ones. You may not need rune regen leggos, I couldn't spend my resources quick enough during certain intervals, but dummy vs real boss mechanics always plays with our rotation.

[VakeStorm]

I've considered trying to build a CAST gear set again. I've switch to frost as I don't like what they are doing with UH and t20 on top of the new gold trait. My best gear favors CAST now anyway...

[veilburner]

Castigator was viable before the new traits, and is still with them as well. The new traits don't offer any more benefit to CS than they do Cast, and vice versa.
It's just a matter of Cast not being the "popular" talent, like how CS used to not be (as CS was viable since 7.0).

CS was not viable since 7.0, it stood as shit for a while.

[Maxweii]

CS was not viable since 7.0, it stood as shit for a while.

It wasn't the popular talent but was entirely viable. Just like right now, Castigator is entirely viable, but not popular.
There's a LARGE difference between not being viable and being the popular talent, which people always glaze over. Case in point of Unholy Frenzy, technically always being good.

[Maxweii]

Castigator was not viable before the new traits, now it's viable.

It entirely was, and was always noted as such in the guide I made. I'm not suddenly changing what I said because of the traits, it's always been viable. It's just not the top, or the popular talent, which does not mean it's not viable.
And again, the new traits add the same to CS as they do to Cast

[VakeStorm]

It entirely was, and was always noted as such in the guide I made. I'm not suddenly changing what I said because of the traits, it's always been viable. It's just not the top, or the popular talent, which does not mean it's not viable.
And again, the new traits add the same to CS as they do to Cast

What Max said, CAST was taken more often in 7.0 because it was doing more dps than CS in most situations. I also feel it was easier to gear for, hence why it did more dps for more people, but that might have just been my luck/experience.

There were plenty of people running CS and stacking the hell out of mastery. CS was viable, just not doing the highest dps without the right gear support. Viability doesn't mean best/go to talent. It just means you can use it and do well with the proper gear support/skill at the rotation/priority system. Hell even some fights might be better for it.

The buffs of 7.1.5 changed things and gave a heavy mastery build more dps power, which favors a CS playstyle. 7.1.5 didn't buff CS directly iirc (Edit: I was wrong, CS as a talent was buffed in 7.1.5, was a 20% flat buff to the talent as well as the 6% aura we got affecting it as well (the aura didn't affect Cast as a talent, just SS)). 7.1.5 buffed many abilities affected by mastery. Gear has also come into the game since 7.0 which synergizes well with a mastery heavy UH dk. This is why CS is popular now. Maxweii's guide gives an excellent account of this.

When 7.1.5 came out CAST builds didn't suddenly die, they just weren't as king as they used to be (you can make an argument for the bracer/PP nerf but I think those were needed in general anyway). Many top UH raiders were still parsing high with CAST because they didn't have the gear for a mastery centric build. I believe 65% mastery was the point you need to hit before you saw a gain (Edit: The 65% Mastery point was for the ghoul scaling with Mastery, but it's damage being reduced baseline (to make it not do stupid amounts of damage for something we pay no attention to). That was the point where the reduction evened out, and anything above that point was a marked increase in ghoul damage as a result.). Raiders which were already gearing for CS/heavy mastery suddenly came out of nowhere, and so that's why people aspire to it. It's now easier to gear for, a more forgiving rotation, and can do bawls to the wall dps when played well.

The new traits also don't favor CAST more than CS either.

If popping a wound does X damage, then taking BS means popping a wounds do X * Y damage (where Y is the boost you get from the BS talent).

The new trait now means popping a wound does X * Z damage. Taking BS with the new trait means popping a wound does X * Z * Y damage. In both cases of the new trait X * Z is a constant and can be simplified to X`.

Before new trait, wound damage: X or X * Y with BS talent
After new trait, wound damage: X` or X` * Y with BS talent

It's the same formula, affected by mastery the same for both.

The point at which Y starts to add a large value would require a very large amount of mastery. Having that much mastery would mean all your other talents are also affected by mastery and thus doing a lot more damage too.

CAST favors a wound popping frequency. CS favors overall shadow damage output.

For CAST to be top dog you'll have to be popping so many wounds that your other dps sources can't keep up. I don't know what that magical number/frequency of wound pops would need to be but I'm sure it's not easy to get to. Though the new gold trait could help. Sadly, if you're doing CAST you almost need to take IC over SI.

I'm pretty sure with 30% crit, 20% haste, and the rest mastery you could do quite well with CAST. You'd likely need the bracers. Another reason people prefer CS now is you don't really need bracers for the mastery build to do well, they just help. With CAST you do is my guess. Likely you will need the belt because you'll be FSing a lot...

At the end of the day play what you want, understand what it takes to gear for it and do your best

Edit: Put in Max's notes to make this post more accurate.

[Maxweii]

That was a well written post Tsata, just two little things for points of clarity

CS as a talent was buffed in 7.1.5, was a 20% flat buff to the talent as well as the 6% aura we got affecting it as well (the aura didn't affect Cast as a talent, just SS).
The 65% Mastery point was for the ghoul scaling with Mastery, but it's damage being reduced baseline (to make it not do stupid amounts of damage for something we pay no attention to). That was the point where the reduction evened out, and anything above that point was a marked increase in ghoul damage as a result.

[VakeStorm]

Thanks for the clarification!

I truly love UH. I just wish they could figure out a way to improve our dps outside of more RNG. I don't know what the maths on the new gold trait amount to dps-wise, or how often it pops a wound even, but it just feels like dps I don't really control. While our t20 bonuses are more in our control they seem equally as bizarre to me.

It also feels like part of the problem is we're this melee ranged hybrid. If they pushed us into one direction or the other that might help them. I'd be okay with either, but obviously being a plate wearing ranged necromancer would be very bad ass imo. But that's another topic for another thread.

[veilburner]

It wasn't the popular talent but was entirely viable. Just like right now, Castigator is entirely viable, but not popular.
There's a LARGE difference between not being viable and being the popular talent, which people always glaze over. Case in point of Unholy Frenzy, technically always being good.

fuck no, CS was stealth nerfed at the start of expansion and did much less damage than SS even with high mastery. castigator was the only viable talent at the time. there was not an issue that it was popular or not. it wasn't viable and it was pure shit. let me rephrase; it did so shit damage that even being a ranged attack couldn't saved from its fate. also if you had bracers legendary, castigator was pretty much mandatory.

i know you are the white knight of the dk forums but do you really want to act like a total ignorant person? what drives you really?

[Maxweii]

fuck no, CS was stealth nerfed at the start of expansion and did much less damage than SS even with high mastery. castigator was the only viable talent at the time. there was not an issue that it was popular or not. it wasn't viable and it was pure shit. let me rephrase; it did so shit damage that even being a ranged attack couldn't saved from its fate. also if you had bracers legendary, castigator was pretty much mandatory.

i know you are the white knight of the dk forums but do you really want to act like a total ignorant person? what drives you really?

Considering you have nothing but heresay and nameless accusations (which actually CS was BUFFED just before Legion went live as it went from weapon damage to attack power based damage). You're not really selling yourself as a knowledgeable source of information.
Actually the reason it was viable was exactly that change from weapon damage to attack power as it allowed for much better scaling on the strike as as such easily allowed it to overtake Cast with certain setups.