Is the EU not good for Europe as a whole?

[Deleted]

I think europe should go even one step further and create a federal republic with the current countries, which split itself into states. Without a central government, but with a powerful parliament and the senate built out of country leaders. Both are in command over the european executive, while country specific institutions prevail.

[Puupi]

Greece, Italy and Spain not ?

No, not really as they were members long before EU started practically exist.

[Deleted]

Only retards and people who directly profit from that circus will tell you everybody gets to profit from the EU. Some wealth will be created - mostly due to free trade and homogenization of laws and standards, some wealth will be reallocated - mostly via development fonds, and since the Euro was created via the TARGET and TARGET2 systems, and some wealth will be destroyed via additional layers of bureaucracy, mismanagement and fraud. Everybody claiming EU is a benefit to all members is a moron and/or liar.

[Deleted]

Only retards and people who directly profit from that circus will tell you everybody gets to profit from the EU. Some wealth will be created - mostly due to free trade and homogenization of laws and standards, some wealth will be reallocated - mostly via development fonds, and since the Euro was created via the TARGET and TARGET2 systems, and some wealth will be destroyed via additional layers of bureaucracy, mismanagement and fraud. Everybody claiming EU is a benefit to all members is a moron and/or liar.

What people fail to grasp is that the money greece received from the IMF mostly went back to german banks anyway.
People forced to live on the streets in athens due to this?

Human rights go bye bye when no one in the media tells neoliberals to be outraged at this and there is no virtue-signalling selfie opportunity either, so no fucks were given.

Grotesque

[Deleted]

What people fail to grasp is that the money greece received from the IMF mostly went back to german banks anyway.
People forced to live on the streets in athens due to this?

Human rights go bye bye when no one in the media tells them to be outraged at this and there is no virtue-signalling selfie opportunity either, so no fucks were given.

Grotesque

Then why Portugal, rescued just like Greece was, is now growing 2%, cut the deficit to 2% (first time in 43 years) and the unemployment is getting smaller every single month, at the same time that salaries and pensions are rising?

I do feel sorry for the greeks, but blaming the EU and Germany for the totality of their situation is just silly.

[Barnabas]

If you are referring to Norway and Switzerland I'm sorry to burst your bubble but they are both members of the European Economic Community, and the free travel area, all EU laws are applicable, they just don't get to vote on anything.

Yours is a completely out of context hallow statement, that ignores the intricate relationship those nations have with the EU, and ignores the nature of their economies, one being an oil state the other being a tax haven.

So member states that don't get a say in anything and you wonder why the united europe idea is falling apart?

[Deleted]

Then why Portugal, rescued just like Greece was, is now growing 2%, cut the deficit to 2% (first time in 43 years) and the unemployment is getting smaller every single month, at the same time that salaries and pensions are rising?

Portugal's left-leaning government has set out to reverse its predecessor's austerity policies, aiming to grow its way out of trouble by boosting demand and set an example for other post-bailout euro zone countries.

But European authorities have responded by raising pressure for budget deficit cuts, which tepid economic growth alone is unlikely to deliver despite Lisbon's assurances. Any increase in purchasing power may be too slight to fuel the desired economic take-off, setting up a clash with Brussels soon.

Parliament's approval of the 2016 budget last week marked the most explicit attempt so far by a euro zone country to roll back reforms and spending cuts imposed during an EU/IMF bailout.

It came after social democratic leaders from around Europe, hosted by French President Francois Hollande, agreed at a March 12 Paris meeting to push back against German-driven austerity policies and press for more EU initiatives to revive growth.

The Portuguese budget assumes growth of 1.8 percent this year but many analysts doubt even this reduced forecast will be achieved after 1.5 percent in 2015.

The shaky alliance of a minority Socialist government and its leftist allies in parliament - the Communists and Left Bloc - has started to deliver on promises to restore public sector wages and pensions to levels before the 2010 debt crisis.

They have raised the minimum wage, cut crisis-time tax surcharges and reintroduced four public holidays.

Other peripheral euro zone countries have also begun to chip away at austerity. In Spain, the center-right government restored before elections in December part of an annual 13th month bonus paid to civil servants canceled in 2012.

Italian Prime Minister Matteo Renzi, whose country avoided a bailout but has the highest debt ratio of any euro zone state except Greece, is also pushing for more fiscal leeway from Brussels to stimulate the economy.

Ireland called time on seven years of severe austerity in its 2015 budget and continued to use the spoils of a booming economy this year to further reduce income taxes, reverse unpopular bailout cuts and raise public sector wages.

But while Ireland's phenomenal 7.8 percent growth meant its 2015 deficit of 1.5 percent of gross domestic product was far below the EU limit of 3 percent, Spain and Portugal both missed their deficit targets last year.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu...-idUSKCN0WO0MN

The bolded part is most likely why. You can't cut spending and expect a growing economy. They knew that, but wanted to make an example of Greece.

[Mihalik]

No, it's purely speculation. We don't have the alternative universe at hand to take a loot at what would have happened to the economy if said country hadn't joined EU.

The Brits volunteered to be the guinea pigs for that experiment. You can also point out that Ukraine and Belarus had economies structured along the same lines as the former Baltics and even many Eastern Bloc countries like Poland. How well did Belarus and Ukraine fared compared to their now EU member counterparts?

They pay way less than average EU members. If Norway had joined they would pay more than anyone else.

Bollocks. Norway pays https://www.norway.no/en/missions/eu...-contribution/ about 170 Euros per capita before rebates (they receive back a lot less than anyone else, because they only benefit from some programs), and that is a whole lot more than a whole lot of EU countries pay into the EU per capita (considering that most are actually net beneficiaries).

I'm not going to play this game with you.

I'll just leave you with what is on the Norwegian government's own page.

The EEA EFTA states normally fund their participation in EU programmes and agencies by an amount corresponding to the relative size of their GDP compared to the GDP of the whole EEA (proportionality factor). The EEA EFTA states participation is hence on equal footing with EU member states.

The programs they do not pay into, they don't benefit from either.

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So member states that don't get a say in anything and you wonder why the united europe idea is falling apart?

They chose not to be member states, but to associate themselves with the EU freely. (Well realistically they have no choice, as Switzerland is landlocked inside the EU and Norway's primary trading partner in pretty much every area is the EU.

Nothing is falling apart. They can chose to apply for ascension if they want, or they can remain effective members without voting rights if they chose to. Nobody is holding a gun to their heads.

[Puupi]

The Brits volunteered to be the guinea pigs for that experiment.

How so? Brits leaving the EU is completely different from not joining the EU at all in the first place.

You can also point out that Ukraine and Belarus had economies structured along the same lines as the former Baltics and even many Eastern Bloc countries like Poland. How well did Belarus and Ukraine fared compared to their now EU member counterparts?

The other country is a dictatorship and the other one in a civil war. Hardly comparable to Baltics or Poland.

Bollocks. Norway pays https://www.norway.no/en/missions/eu...-contribution/ about 170 Euros per capita before rebates (they receive back a lot less than anyone else, because they only benefit from some programs), and that is a whole lot more than a whole lot of EU countries pay into the EU per capita (considering that most are actually net beneficiaries).

And they would pay most likely double if they were members. It's pretty directly tied to the GDP. Norway's GDP per capita is about 50% higher than eg. Finland's, France's or Germany's.

[Deleted]

The EU is the best that has happened to Europe in all its history, period. If someone knows a better period with a better system that cover our social neccesities and prevented wars between its countries please enlight us. The EU has flaws, no one is saying the opposite but to make it cease to exist just becouse of the sake of it its just an idiotic statement. It could be a worse system and it would be even the best system Europe has had.

[Slant]

This is just from an outsider looking in, but it seems like the EU has caused more trouble for countries in Europe than it has helped.

Leaving some of a country's sovereignty at the door when stepping into the EU is certainly troubling for many citizens of Europe.

Do you feel the EU's purpose has been exhausted and should be dismantled?

Curious to know how actual Europeans feel about this, in the wake of the French election and all.

Too obvious, dude... try harder.

[Glnger]

The movie Eurotrip wouldn't have been possible without the EU...

[Deleted]

The bolded part is most likely why. You can't cut spending and expect a growing economy. They knew that, but wanted to make an example of Greece.

Portuguese public investiment dropped below the 2% GDP, one of the lowest in all EU. Public spending dropped 25% last year.

The problem isn't austerity, the problem was how it was originally applied, on the people instead on the state itself.

[namecraft]

I don't like tax money going to some poor EU countries, and I don't like having no choice.

[Dezerte]

It is a good idea, but it may have expanded too quickly.

Many forget the good things that has come out of EU, such as net neutrality.

[Vorkreist]

The eastern expansion was a mistake.

What was the alternative? Let the east turn into soviet playground 2.0 with the eu bordering Russia at Berlin again?

[Slant]

It is a good idea, but it may have expanded too quickly.

Many forget the good things that has come out of EU, such as net neutrality.

That wasn't the EU, that was the original intent of the internet. The EU just protected it.

[luckydevours]

EU didn't stop wars, what stopped wars is that wars became so terrible that people don't want another war. 63 million dead, cities destroyed, etc.

Which is basically the same thing. People didn't want another war so they founded the EU ...

[Miyagie]

Not really. Italy is still one of the largest EU economies, and one of the most prosperous despite of its recent troubles. Spain is once again the fastest growing economy in Europe, and this time around it's not a growth based on a real estate bubble, but a very competitive outward looking economy.

Greece...ok...Greece is a shitshow.

Italy is one big shitshow take tourism away and the massiv corupted gouverment will give Italy the rest.

[ati87]

EU didn't stop wars, what stopped wars is that wars became so terrible that people don't want another war. 63 million dead, cities destroyed, etc.

WW1 didn't stop WW2 even though it was called ''the great war''