Is the EU not good for Europe as a whole?

[Slant]

Yeah, WW1 certainly prevented WW2 from happening.

Be patient, he's American. Unless there's nazis in it, it's not a world war according to American history lore.

[Acidbaron]

EU didn't stop wars, what stopped wars is that wars became so terrible that people don't want another war. 63 million dead, cities destroyed, etc.

You know this could have been your one in a few full moon chances to point out how the US contributed to the creation of the EU and how that stopped wars, but nope.

You had to go and pull a completely random thing out of thin air and run with it for reasons.

[Deleted]

And then Germany would have absolute control with it's largest population and subserviant neighbours. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

When europe is based on parliament and a conseus among the state leaders?

Seems you got something wrong here.

[Acidbaron]

The eastern expansion was a mistake.

Trivia time!

Which Country PM was big agenda point was the eastern expansion and even adding Turkey to the EU if he managed to get his way?

Tip: The nation he was PM from is now intending to planning to leave the EU.

OT:
EU, is a net gain for all involved, without it economically we would have been worse off and we probably would not have survived the bank crisis as well as we did, The issues people have with the EU don't stem from that but from ideological reasons, identity politics being the root of it and a whole lot of misunderstanding and misinformation being a driving force of it, often by political parties who can make coin out of it.

However each crisis we face the EU seem to come out stronger every time in that particular sector, and the elite were made aware there is indeed a big message problem so now it's on them to solve that problem. For people complaining about economics this has more to do with the negatives of globalization rather than the EU, even if the EU would not have existed low income and low schooled jobs would still be directly competing with very low wage nations and the situation would have probably been a whole lot worse, with us not being able to form a block against the US and more importantly China.

I find it healthy that people are skeptical of the EU and want more information, want things to improve that's what everyone sane should desire from politics on any level, even local. However to jump on the "let's all leave and things will get better!" bandwagon, that's just a bunch of lies since people who buy that think they reside on an island where they can stop time and even turn back the clock thinking everything will go back to "normal", whatever normal means since as long i can remember the landscape of EU has always been and forever will be changing, it's better to control the change with a force that can rather than to believe in simple minded populism.

[Deleted]

It was a sovereign default. But the country was rich af. I mean, the bailouts happened to several of the most successful economies on Earth, only not so much compared to the rest of the EZ. Sovereign default was, far as I understand it, the result of unsustainable policies.
Ireland had a high GDP/capita before the crisis. It was seen as unfair having to rescue a country that was richer than for instance Germany. But it was expected that their economy would bump up back again, so their bail out was not very controversial, as they'd be able to easily and speedily pay back.
But you're right that the ~25% growth (not sure of the exact number) in 2015 raised some questions. To which I'm not exactly sure what the answer is. Some companies have been under fire for evasion. So yeah... some numbers don't add up.

Looking at the bigger picture, Ireland and Spain were not bancrupt as a result of mismanagement and corruption like Greece, but because they used public money to rescue their banks. Both had a considerably lower debt quota than Germany before the crisis - although some spanish debt was 'hidden' within the budgets of the regions. So giving EU bailout money to these two has to be considered to be reasonably fair, if you decide to break the Maastricht treaty and do a bailout in the first place.

[Aeula]

The EU is little more than a pathetic power grab, attempting to collect as many nations as possible and unify them under a single banner, dismantling their currency, their culture, their armies and probably their governments at some point.

They used to forbid anyone from leaving the union after joining. Now so many countries are dependent on the union that they couldn't get away if they wanted to. Dependency on such a high scale is a recipe for disaster, when the EU eventually collapses (Which it will do eventually) every country attached to it will be royally fucked, better to get rid of it sooner so the impact is less severe.

[Gaidax]

EU will decline over the next decade, it won't collapse, but the winds are blowing there. Greece, Brexit, refugee crisis this is all filling the sails of populists who have a stronger resonating argument with the people each year passing.

Once Brexit happens and UK proves it will be well and sound, other wealthy members will be dropping like leaves from a dying tree.

[ati87]

That wasn't a country, that was an airline and local airport security, wasn't it? It's a bit harsh to blame an entire country for the wrongdoings of one company. And they received the shitstorm of the month for it, too.

But yes, the EU has achieved a shitton of things without which nobody here would want to live anymore.

Its the country that allows these kind of shit, can you imagine something like that happening close in europe?

[Slant]

Its the country that allows these kind of shit, can you imagine something like that happening close in europe?

That humans fuck up and make mistakes? Absolutely.

[Deleted]

The Euro was a mistake.the eu in general not so much.

The EU in general was also a mistake. The concept is good, but the execution is insanely bad. We don't have democratically elected leaders and yet they can force anything they want on sovereign countries. Everyone is losing their freedom while a select few people get rich and powerful.

And sadly reforming isn't an option since the people in control of such a reform are the same people in power right now and will make sure the reform is purely bureaucratic, while they still remain in power effectively. So that only leaves dismantling the whole thing.

The EU should've been democratically elected, not a dictatorship hiding under the veils of a false union.

[Morgarw]

The more i read this forum, the more i'm convinced that my country (Italy) NEEDS to get out of Eu.

[Mayhem]

The EU in general was also a mistake. The concept is good, but the execution is insanely bad. We don't have democratically elected leaders and yet they can force anything they want on sovereign countries. Everyone is losing their freedom while a select few people get rich and powerful.

And sadly reforming isn't an option since the people in control of such a reform are the same people in power right now and will make sure the reform is purely bureaucratic, while they still remain in power effectively. So that only leaves dismantling the whole thing.

The EU should've been democratically elected, not a dictatorship hiding under the veils of a false union.

Ok you kind of know nothing at all about the EU.

[khazmodan]

This is just from an outsider looking in, but it seems like the EU has caused more trouble for countries in Europe than it has helped.

Leaving some of a country's sovereignty at the door when stepping into the EU is certainly troubling for many citizens of Europe.

Do you feel the EU's purpose has been exhausted and should be dismantled?

Curious to know how actual Europeans feel about this, in the wake of the French election and all.

nope nope nope

[Miyagie]

Italy is a founding member FFS...

Dont change the fact that alot of Italy looks like a 3rd world country outside of the tourism regions.

[Puupi]

Dont change the fact that alot of Italy looks like a 3rd world country outside of the tourism regions.

"Just" the south really. Northern Italy ~60k GDP, Southern Italy 20k. They are like two entirely different countries.

[bufferunderrun]

Dont change the fact that alot of Italy looks like a 3rd world country outside of the tourism regions.

?? italy had it's problem but calling it a third world country is an hyperbole.

Anyway the problem is that EU don't have a political union and an effective cost/benefit sharing, Germany wanted the big market and mostly pushed to take on board countries that weren't ready to join but they adamantly refuse to share the burdens that generate with it, Greece crisis and in general debt crisis would have been avoided by creating Eurobond and an unified spread.
Also the european economic and foreign politic due to various interest abroad is largely retarded due to each country looking only after it's small garden, Lybia, Syria, Ucraine and the recent stance on Turkey.

[Mehrunes]

The EU in general was also a mistake. The concept is good, but the execution is insanely bad. We don't have democratically elected leaders and yet they can force anything they want on sovereign countries. Everyone is losing their freedom while a select few people get rich and powerful.

And sadly reforming isn't an option since the people in control of such a reform are the same people in power right now and will make sure the reform is purely bureaucratic, while they still remain in power effectively. So that only leaves dismantling the whole thing.

The EU should've been democratically elected, not a dictatorship hiding under the veils of a false union.

Let's see. Leaders are chosen through democratic means. They can only "force" what the various state representatives in multiple institutions related to EU legislations agree on. EU is pro-freedom (which was kinda one of the lines of conflict with UK who wanted less of it). EU is an economic boon to the entire countries that are in it. And reforming EU is up to leaders of the member states.

[Jaylock]

Let's see. Leaders are chosen through democratic means. They can only "force" what the various state representatives in multiple institutions related to EU legislations agree on. EU is pro-freedom (which was kinda one of the lines of conflict with UK who wanted less of it). EU is an economic boon to the entire countries that are in it. And reforming EU is up to leaders of the member states.

Wouldn't it make sense to make all the countries in the EU actual States and have Europe be controlled by one central government?

Yes, the countries that would now be states would lose some of their sovereignty but that's the price you gotta pay if you want to continue to have the benefits of a centralized monetary system, and quite frankly domestic agenda.

I mean, think about certain countries that are so small that it doesn't make any sense to BE a country. Denmark? Luxembourg? Malta? Andorra? Switzerland? They would all make sense as STATES as part of a new European Union Government, not countries imo.

[Puupi]

I mean, think about certain countries that are so small that it doesn't make any sense to BE a country. Denmark? Luxembourg? Malta? Andorra? Switzerland? They would all make sense as STATES as part of a new European Union Government, not countries imo.

Yet, the people in those countries are safer, wealthier, happier and healthier than in big countries like USA, Russia and China.

So yes, there is a sense to be a small country. Nationalism makes sense, too.

[Mehrunes]

The EU is little more than a pathetic power grab, attempting to collect as many nations as possible and unify them under a single banner, dismantling their currency, their culture, their armies and probably their governments at some point.

When did EU dismantle any culture or army? And when did it force any nations to change their currency?

They used to forbid anyone from leaving the union after joining. Now so many countries are dependent on the union that they couldn't get away if they wanted to. Dependency on such a high scale is a recipe for disaster, when the EU eventually collapses (Which it will do eventually) every country attached to it will be royally fucked, better to get rid of it sooner so the impact is less severe.

At no point has been that a thing.

EU will decline over the next decade, it won't collapse, but the winds are blowing there. Greece, Brexit, refugee crisis this is all filling the sails of populists who have a stronger resonating argument with the people each year passing.

People like you have been repeating the same tune since EEC formed.

Once Brexit happens and if UK proves it will be well and sound, other wealthy members will be dropping like leaves from a dying tree.

Fixed it for you.