Demonic Chaos Cleave Simming Better Than Chaos Blades Build on ST !!!

[Extremity]

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...lßlade/simple

I usually have 46% crit but I got that trinket last night and the agility is just nice.....

Standard CB - 1112200 - 795k Wdps > Crit > Mastery > Haste ~= Agi > AP ~= Vers ~= WOHdps
Demonic CC - 2202222 - 835k Wdps > Crit > WOHdps > Mastery ~= Haste ~= Agi > AP > Vers

that's not including customising legendaries so the gap could be smaller.

But, I opened a thread about it the other day - at 46% crit weights don't change, crit crit crit - chaotic onslaught difference?

That agility is really nice, but not only is it Vers but it's an on-use Vers. You have to look at it this way; if you have a trinket with 2k Agi and 1.2k Crit, like your second trinket, does the extra 485 agility on that new trinket of yours make up for the passive 1.2k crit you're losing in exchange? What if it were Mastery? A duplicate of your Trinket #2 with Mastery instead of crit, one with 2k Agi / 1.2k Mastery, would *DESTROY* that high-item level trinket you got. Don't use an item just because of item level / primary stat, I know it's tempting and it totally sucks to let a high item level piece go to waste, but it's going to hurt you in the long run. It's better to use a lower item level trinket and get a better secondary stat (or proc) any day of the week. What other options do you have for that trinket slot?

46% isn't insanely high or anything, but it's too high if you have low Mastery in exchange. Your current crit, around 42%, is in a good spot. I still say 40% with 4 piece should be your minimum goal. You're in a good spot for crit, but not if you're sacrificing 4 percent of it for that trinket.

You would almost guaranteed be better off with an 880-905 Agi/Mastery stat stick in that slot than a 920 Agi/On-use Vers. Like, absolutely so. Again, gimme a list of the trinkets available to you.

I'm confused by your builds. Are you giving me numbers like a programmer would, where the first option is "0" instead of "1"?

When you say 1112200, you mean 2223311 right? Because that would be a standard First Blood build. For a second i was confused and thought you had some weird spec where "0" just meant "pick any of them". I get it now.

I see helm/belt equipped for Demonic build, do you ever use bracers to do helm/bracers + bloodlet in Demonic? I know it would be better on cleave but am not 100% sure regarding pure ST, but with the change to bracers (and with all the people claiming to be doing more with bloodlet even on ST) have you tried a Demonic/Bloodlet combo build?

As for First Blood build, an obvious problem is the legendaries available to you. Having the AotHG ring would help. Having the belt is nice, but you still don't have a "great" First Blood second legendary, so your best bet is belt/bracers with bloodlet or belt/sephuz with first blood for pure ST; have you compared a belt/bracers bloodlet build to the others?

Right now your best bet for a true first blood build is Sephuz + Belt, making sure to try to proc that ring as much as possible and line it up with your meta use whenever possible. It might be hard to do so on the pull if there is not a mob you can kick or stun off the bat (but if there is a stunnable target and you open with meta, aiming so your meta-stun procs the ring immediately is great).

First Blood with ring/belt should, at the least, be tying (if not beating) single-target Demonic build for you with the right setup. Like I told the other guy; go into first blood spec, put on belt/ring, and edit your stats to a flat 40% crit rate and about 38-39% Mastery. Let me know how much of a difference that makes for you. Also, if you're curious, after you sim with Sephuz run another one, manually editing the import to replace sephuz with the AotHG legendary ring. See if that makes a significant difference, too; if it does, at least you know that ring is still relevant for you and is worth continuing to aim for.

And for BOTH of you -- make sure you have updated simcraft! Check again for an update after reading this, there WERE bugs related to the traits and you might be using an older one even if you updated earlier today!

[Darkeh]

yep I'm on the latest simc

best other trinkets I have is 880 socket hunger, a 895 agil crit stat stick, and 895 horn of val. the vers trinket is simming higher on the agil basis, + the fact the vers is a 1 min on use, I macro it to fury of the illidari.

I have literally - Sunday, got the belt, so pre sunday my sims may have been thrown by not having a decent legendary (other than raddons).

from the simming I have done - aothg is an 50+ increase to both specs. Only being slighty outshined by the shoulders in demonic.

yes sorry added 1 to each of the specs (its the format the armory puts the link in 0 instead of 1

[Ctz]

Do you run Momentum for your Demonic build if doing Demonic AOE? You're only doing Nemesis because it's a ST Demonic build, right?

You've got a TON of crit for running 4 piece. Honestly, I think that's why, because in exchange your Mastery is pretty low for your item level. If you ran a sim and put your baseline crit to 40% (so 50% on chaos strike w/ 4p) and bumped your Mastery up to like 38.5% (by manually editing your sim import) what does it say about First Blood vs Demonic then?

You're also running a Vers trinket... I get that it's a 920 which is awesome and it has a ton of agility, but you should still really replace that thing unless you flat out have ZERO other good trinkets above 889 or so. That trinket is probably incredible for tanking though.

I played a Destruction Warlock for a long time, and we had a scaling stat weight if you wanted to gear properly; Crit was the best stat, over absolutely everything else, at the start of the expansion towards 2/3 through. Then, once you hit a certain level of really good gear, Mastery was the best and you stacked it for the rest of the expansion. But even then, if you were doing hardcore endgame and had close to full absolute best-in-slot gear and like 140%+ Mastery, Haste would start to take over if you could hit a certain cap.

The point is that average Warlocks kept stacking crit, or maybe some kept stacking Mastery, but the very top knew the adjustment rates; just the same, I think there are a lot of Havocs out there that have had "CRIT, CRIT, CRIT!" slammed into their brains for so long that they are just mindlessly stacking crit still. It is our best stat, it's amazing, but once you break ilvl 907 or so (assuming your gear is well itemized) and have your 4p it gets to the point that you don't want to keep stacking crit at the expense of everything else anymore. You are at that point, and you could afford to *lose* crit. You need to be pushing Mastery, hard. Mastery gems and enchants, Master stat sticks, whatever you can get. If you don't have a few pieces you can swap out to specifically trade some crit for some mastery without messing up your set bonuses or other stats, then you need to swap every gem and enchant for Mastery. I would probably keep Mark of the Claw, though; although you could swap it for the Mastery proc or the constant Mastery neck enchant, MotC being crit and haste is good enough that you can go either way on that slot.

Yeah, i'd like to up a bit that mastery, you're right maybe i should strat looking at changing gems et enchant now, thx.
For the trinkets yeah, i've been very unlucky with them until these two. Just 2 weeks ago i still only had a 865 BTI and 875 Nightblooming, yay ! Will keep buying nethershards tokens hoping to have luck

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Last raid after Skorpyron i forgot to change back talents from Chaos cleave to First blood, i was tired and didn't understand the dps drop (was still using blade dance on cd..).
My sims with felblade / chaos cleave, while playing it accordingly (without Blade dance) are only 1k dps lower than with First blood on pure ST. Did you guys try it ? If that's the case, seen the aoe / cleave benefit of Chaos cleave that would be worth sticking to it so ..

[Extremity]

Yeah, i'd like to up a bit that mastery, you're right maybe i should strat looking at changing gems et enchant now, thx.
For the trinkets yeah, i've been very unlucky with them until these two. Just 2 weeks ago i still only had a 865 BTI and 875 Nightblooming, yay ! Will keep buying nethershards tokens hoping to have luck

Seriously though dude, do what I said - Go to simcraft and import your character like usual. Then, go to where you see all the text for your toon, all the data. Go into it and you can manually change stuff. Change the stats it has for you to put your crit at 40% and your mastery at around 38-39%, and then sim again for each spec. This way you can see what would happen if you were able to swap that mastery around. If by doing that First Blood becomes better and does a lot more, go for it. If you do that and its not much different, then don't bother. It should be a big difference, though.

As for the Chaos Cleave thing, I don't know. Before 7.2, definitely not. Now, with the new gold trait, I guess it's possible it's closer than it was before. Chaos Cleave is effectively "your chaos strike hits 10% harder" when in single target fights, so with the new gold trait procs and the higher level of crit damage from it via having 4/4 critical chaos, I guess it could be true. With the blade dance 20% crit damage trait, though, and the emphasis put on blade dance in t20, even if it is true right now it's not going to stay that way for long so I wouldn't really plan to play that way because you're just going to have to swap back anyways. I could be completely wrong though, who knows? It's definitely better in sme scenarios.

[Enentari]

If that's the case, seen the aoe / cleave benefit of Chaos cleave that would be worth sticking to it so ..

Both are pretty close in ST (to me, CC is 1k lower than first blood), far behind bloodlet + bracers in cleave, and far behind demonic in AOE, so not really needed to switch^^

Also, playing with a real 1 button spec is very very boring to me...

[Ctz]

Seriously though dude, do what I said - Go to simcraft and import your character like usual. Then, go to where you see all the text for your toon, all the data. Go into it and you can manually change stuff. Change the stats it has for you to put your crit at 40% and your mastery at around 38-39%, and then sim again for each spec. This way you can see what would happen if you were able to swap that mastery around. If by doing that First Blood becomes better and does a lot more, go for it. If you do that and its not much different, then don't bother. It should be a big difference, though.

As for the Chaos Cleave thing, I don't know. Before 7.2, definitely not. Now, with the new gold trait, I guess it's possible it's closer than it was before. Chaos Cleave is effectively "your chaos strike hits 10% harder" when in single target fights, so with the new gold trait procs and the higher level of crit damage from it via having 4/4 critical chaos, I guess it could be true. With the blade dance 20% crit damage trait, though, and the emphasis put on blade dance in t20, even if it is true right now it's not going to stay that way for long so I wouldn't really plan to play that way because you're just going to have to swap back anyways.

Just did it, i "win 300 dps by changing enchants ang gem, and if i go further, lowering crit by 1000 to mastery then i lose 600 dps, guess i won't bother for now ^^.
You're right for first blood yeah, thx .

Both are pretty close in ST (to me, CC is 1k lower than first blood), far behind bloodlet + bracers in cleave, and far behind demonic in AOE, so not really needed to switch^^

Also, playing with a real 1 button spec is very very boring to me...

Don't have bracers yet so i guess i'll keep it for cleave, but yeah, i'll stick to fb otherwise

[Littlepwny]

This is very surprising to me as well.

CB with Chaos Cleave is 868k
CB with First Blood is 871k
CB with Bloodlet (+Bracers) is at 890k
Demonic with Chaos Cleave is at 870k
Demonic with First Blood is at 824k
Demonic with Bloodlet (+Bracers) is at 839k

All of the above values are with Bracers + Sephuz equipped so the DPS gap between Blootlet and the rest is even smaller or non-existant since I can equip one of my other legendaries (not at home to test different legendary combinations which do not include AotHG btw).

It seem that the recent change in the Critical Chaos bug with SimC in addition to the interaction with Chaotic Onslaught has turned Chaos Cleave into an extremely powerful (if a bit brain-dead) talent.

I'll obviously still be sticking with the CB build for raids but I can definitely see this finding turning Demonic into a no-brainer for Fortified weeks and potentially even for Tyrannical weeks (the boss dps difference used to be too big)

[Krille]

Seriously though dude, do what I said - Go to simcraft and import your character like usual. Then, go to where you see all the text for your toon, all the data. Go into it and you can manually change stuff. Change the stats it has for you to put your crit at 40% and your mastery at around 38-39%, and then sim again for each spec. This way you can see what would happen if you were able to swap that mastery around. If by doing that First Blood becomes better and does a lot more, go for it. If you do that and its not much different, then don't bother. It should be a big difference, though.

As for the Chaos Cleave thing, I don't know. Before 7.2, definitely not. Now, with the new gold trait, I guess it's possible it's closer than it was before. Chaos Cleave is effectively "your chaos strike hits 10% harder" when in single target fights, so with the new gold trait procs and the higher level of crit damage from it via having 4/4 critical chaos, I guess it could be true. With the blade dance 20% crit damage trait, though, and the emphasis put on blade dance in t20, even if it is true right now it's not going to stay that way for long so I wouldn't really plan to play that way because you're just going to have to swap back anyways. I could be completely wrong though, who knows? It's definitely better in sme scenarios.

The reason Chaos Cleave came ahead is because of the mistake that was made regarding Critical Chaos and they found that the crit dmg is actually 12% per rank in that trait. With that in mind and with the new golden trait Chaos Cleave pulls ahead of First Blood on ST. And crit is more valuable now, you'd be wrong to drop crit for mastery.

[Extremity]

The reason Chaos Cleave came ahead is because of the mistake that was made regarding Critical Chaos and they found that the crit dmg is actually 12% per rank in that trait. With that in mind and with the new golden trait Chaos Cleave pulls ahead of First Blood on ST. And crit is more valuable now, you'd be wrong to drop crit for mastery.

You know, I was wondering about that earlier -- the interaction between the golden trait and chaos cleave. I haven't ran CC to play with it since getting that trait. So they do work together? Every time you get an extra swing, that swing also procs another chaos cleave hit for 10% of its value? That's pretty cool, I'll definitely have to update my way of looking at it and test it out when I get on later today, thanks!

Edit: I wonder how this is going to play out with the 20% Blade Dance crit damage trait + the T20 bonuses once they come out, or if 4-19 / 2-20 is really gonna be what people aim for assuming good t19 TF procs.

[Sarevokcz]

The reason Chaos Cleave came ahead is because of the mistake that was made regarding Critical Chaos and they found that the crit dmg is actually 12% per rank in that trait. With that in mind and with the new golden trait Chaos Cleave pulls ahead of First Blood on ST. And crit is more valuable now, you'd be wrong to drop crit for mastery.

I heard those reports, but that sounds like something they would have found months ago tbh, this "just suddenly someone realized 6% is for the entire crit, not for the crit bonus part only" is something I would expect people to test as one of the very first things during beta, not only find out halfway through the expansion. On the other hand, checking my logs, my CS crits are with 5 traits (30%) almost exactly at 260% of my CS hits, so yeah, loooks like we were in the dark for like a year, oops.

But I tried chaos cleave with normal build on couple of bosses (and on challenge p1, just so i could focus more on mechanics and not on pressing BD on CD) and it feels kinda boring, the lower fury cost of BD makes the rotation alot smoother, while chaos cleave gets frustrating often when you dont proc fury, might be alot more fun with momentum/demonic tho

[Extremity]

@victork8 - I've done several sims, even some editing my crit to a flat 45% (w/ 4 piece) and Mastery to 39%, and I still can't get anything to beat First Blood on Krosus-style or Spellblade-style. Bloodlet and Chaos Cleave are both very similar, but First Blood is just always ahead.

45% crit, 39% Mastery, Spellblade:
First Blood: 996,837dps
Bloodlet: 946,659dps
Chaos Cleave: 957,855

What were the conditions for CC to trump FB in a generally-ST scenario?

[Zyky]

@victork8 - I've done several sims, even some editing my crit to a flat 45% (w/ 4 piece) and Mastery to 39%, and I still can't get anything to beat First Blood on Krosus-style or Spellblade-style. Bloodlet and Chaos Cleave are both very similar, but First Blood is just always ahead.

45% crit, 39% Mastery, Spellblade:
First Blood: 996,837dps
Bloodlet: 946,659dps
Chaos Cleave: 957,855

What were the conditions for CC to trump FB in a generally-ST scenario?

I don't get the same results either. With the latest version of simcraft First Blood is showing up as 870k and Chaos Cleave is showing up as 853k. Legendaries are Ring/Shoulders. Trinkets are CoF and 890 Arcanocrystal. This is over 360s with the my stats from my character; being:
# Gear Summary
# gear_ilvl=908.13
# gear_agility=21012
# gear_stamina=34601
# gear_crit_rating=14532
# gear_haste_rating=3316
# gear_mastery_rating=7521
# gear_versatility_rating=2483
# gear_speed_rating=511
# gear_armor=2447
# set_bonus=tier19_2pc=1
# set_bonus=tier19_4pc=1

[Krille]

You know, I was wondering about that earlier -- the interaction between the golden trait and chaos cleave. I haven't ran CC to play with it since getting that trait. So they do work together? Every time you get an extra swing, that swing also procs another chaos cleave hit for 10% of its value? That's pretty cool, I'll definitely have to update my way of looking at it and test it out when I get on later today, thanks!

Edit: I wonder how this is going to play out with the 20% Blade Dance crit damage trait + the T20 bonuses once they come out, or if 4-19 / 2-20 is really gonna be what people aim for assuming good t19 TF procs.

The 20% crit dmg trait is less valued cus it doesnt work on Death Sweep, which with the new traits somewhat devalues First Blood. But with T20 in it's current iteration First Blood is def going to be the go-to talent. For now though, Chaos Cleave is better for alot of people (usually with high ilvl, many CC relics).

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@victork8 - I've done several sims, even some editing my crit to a flat 45% (w/ 4 piece) and Mastery to 39%, and I still can't get anything to beat First Blood on Krosus-style or Spellblade-style. Bloodlet and Chaos Cleave are both very similar, but First Blood is just always ahead.

45% crit, 39% Mastery, Spellblade:
First Blood: 996,837dps
Bloodlet: 946,659dps
Chaos Cleave: 957,855

What were the conditions for CC to trump FB in a generally-ST scenario?

Are you simming with the latest nightly/raidbots? I have 46% crit and 37% mastery and one Critical Chaos relic and CC is around 10k dps higher than First Blood.

[Deix-EU]

The major factor for Demonic to sim higher is higher agility (Helm, trinket, Chest ...). Demonic scaling is more friendly with agility.
If you drop agility by 1k for example (so ring + belt etc.), standart build WITH high Crit / Mastery combo SHOULD be ahead.

[Zyky]

The 20% crit dmg trait is less valued cus it doesnt work on Death Sweep, which with the new traits somewhat devalues First Blood. But with T20 in it's current iteration First Blood is def going to be the go-to talent. For now though, Chaos Cleave is better for alot of people (usually with high ilvl, many CC relics).

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Are you simming with the latest nightly/raidbots? I have 46% crit and 37% mastery and one Critical Chaos relic and CC is around 10k dps higher than First Blood.

I'm running 2 Critical Chaos relics, still a 15k dps loss from taking First Blood. As for Death Sweep, if it isn't getting it, then it's a bug and should be reported as such. I haven't looked much into it, but I'm sure it does work on Death Sweep.

Edit: Just went over my logs from last week, the 20% is effecting Death Sweep.

[Krille]

I'm running 2 Critical Chaos relics, still a 15k dps loss from taking First Blood. As for Death Sweep, if it isn't getting it, then it's a bug and should be reported as such. I haven't looked much into it, but I'm sure it does work on Death Sweep.

Edit: Just went over my logs from last week, the 20% is effecting Death Sweep.

It was reported weeks ago as a bug. And it doesn't apply to Death Sweep unless all the DH theorycrafters are wrong.

[Lostprophet]

Got a good CS Relic... and CC went ahead after that

https://raidbots.com/simbot/report/SJiQGzpCx

[Zyky]

It was reported weeks ago as a bug. And it doesn't apply to Death Sweep unless all the DH theorycrafters are wrong.

Regardless of Death Sweep, unless my logs from before and after are just shifting massively(from only a 2 IL difference), that doesn't explain a 15k dps loss taking Chaos Cleave.

[Krille]

Regardless of Death Sweep, unless my logs from before and after are just shifting massively(from only a 2 IL difference), that doesn't explain a 15k dps loss taking Chaos Cleave.

I mean crit RNG can mean it differs, just because it deals more dmg in some logs doesn't mean it works on Death Sweep. There has been alot of testing and apparently it doesn't work. Blizzard might have stealth-fixed it though, but for now no Simulationcraft-build is applying 20% crit dmg to Death Sweep.

[Zyky]

I mean crit RNG can mean it differs, just because it deals more dmg in some logs doesn't mean it works on Death Sweep. There has been alot of testing and apparently it doesn't work. Blizzard might have stealth-fixed it though, but for now no Simulationcraft-build is applying 20% crit dmg to Death Sweep.

Crit RNG means nothing when you're looking specifically at max crit hit. Literally talking about a 60k difference in max crit hits from before and after.