1. #32321
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Hard to say honestly. In my experience, at max level, yes there's a little less buttons to press, but if you plan on doing roulettes that can put you in content from level 16 to level 60, your bar will be filled to the brim. IMO BLM is the most annoying class to do roulettes with because of how profoundly the rotation and abilities used changes depending on what level you are so unless you want to spend 2-3 minutes (at least) every time you sync to rearrange your bars, they'll be filled up.

    Of the jobs I've played more, Bard and Machinist are the ones with the least amount of button bloat though Summoner doesn't feel bad either. That said, if you enjoy playing a class, even if it has button bloat you don't really notice it since you're having fun with it. The one class that I feel it the most is Warrior because it has SO MANY abilities and cooldowns and combos...if you don't play it often and know the stuff frontwards and backwards it's rough to get a handle on but when I was "maining" it when leveling it exclusively it felt great but I can't go back to it on a whim because it's so complex.

    As to the button bloat and complexity, I'm fairly sure that SQEX didn't purposely design it to be this way just for the sake of complexity as they've acknowledged that it's a problem. Every MMO with a system like FFXIV has this problem over time as the level cap increases and you add new abilities, and it needs to be addressed when it crops up but to say that it's purposeful to have bloat for the sake of complexity is stretching it a little I think.
    Thanks for the input

    As for design - i called it lazy because it is shortsighted. I to dont believe they did it on purpose, rather they didnt look at repercussions. And now they need to salvage it in some way, because it is a problem.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kazela View Post
    Going to claim a level of bias here in that I find MCH to be one of the worst offenders of button bloat and piano concert keyboard play to execute properly, but I've also spent dick all amount of time playing it (with majority of time being in PotD), so I also believe I'm shit tier when it comes to playing it. BLM has fewer buttons required to pull off the basics; I'd lump SMN in as a reasonable in-between of BLM and MCH in terms of how many buttons to push (I've somehow gotten the basics of the SMN opener down to muscle memory at this point even though it's like 5-6 oGCDs in a row, or so it seems).
    Interesting - i read that summoner is one of the worst because of constant micromanage of pet on top of normal rotation.

  2. #32322
    Quote Originally Posted by Aliven View Post
    Thanks for the input

    As for design - i called it lazy because it is shortsighted. I to dont believe they did it on purpose, rather they didnt look at repercussions. And now they need to salvage it in some way, because it is a problem.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Interesting - i read that summoner is one of the worst because of constant micromanage of pet on top of normal rotation.
    I haven't had much issue with pet micromanagement, but I won't call myself the be-all-end-all of SMN play, either. I use the Garuda pet and set it to Obey so I can manually use it's Contagion ability. It tends not to get killed in raids, either; only time it ends up dead is if I were to apply Eye for an Eye on the tank as they are pulling stuff and forget to tell the pet to follow (so it starts attacking and gets itself killed, lol).

  3. #32323
    Quote Originally Posted by Aliven View Post
    Thanks for the input

    As for design - i called it lazy because it is shortsighted. I to dont believe they did it on purpose, rather they didnt look at repercussions. And now they need to salvage it in some way, because it is a problem.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Interesting - i read that summoner is one of the worst because of constant micromanage of pet on top of normal rotation.
    Depending on how/ if you manage your pet Summoner can be pretty simple or stupidly complex. I personally just use Ifrit and let him go apeshit with little or no management except target switching when necessary. Garuda ekes ahead on damage when managed perfectly on some fights and that amount of difference isn't worth it to me. I don't do progression content so that level of min/maxing isn't needed and the content I do run I do quite well. Additionally, micromanaging your pets abilities vs macro'ing them alongside other abilities makes a huge difference. I don't do this because sometimes I want my pet to attack something I'm not, but I know several people macro Ruin II to also include a pet attack command so it tells the pet to attack the target you just cast Ruin II on. And there are other options.

    All pet classes require awareness of your pets, and that alone is something some people don't like, but if you're cool with that there's little else you NEED to do to be successful in most content.

  4. #32324
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    While this statement is true, I don't like it.

    With regards to DoT's. That's not something every class needs to have 2 of. That's not a tool IMO. A tool would be a form of utility; something like all classes having a stun. Same thing with regards to the damage up maintenance buff. Not every class needs one of them. That's not a tool.
    Completely agree. Imho it's boring that every class has to do the same:
    Keep buffs up, keep DoTs up -> fill.
    Bard was unique in the regard that he could move -> axed @ 52 with that stupid minuet.
    BLM shouldn't have to manage a DoT. Thunder always feels like "meeh need to squeeze it in somehow" and not like it belongs.

    Don't get me started on the 3 tanks... ._.

  5. #32325
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    BLM shouldn't have to manage a DoT. Thunder always feels like "meeh need to squeeze it in somehow" and not like it belongs.
    "Muh BLM spell trinity, don't kill the job identity."

    edit : Also, "don't kill my Thunder Mage playstyle, you don't pay my sub."
    Last edited by MrTharne; 2017-04-25 at 08:31 PM.

  6. #32326
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Completely agree. Imho it's boring that every class has to do the same:
    Keep buffs up, keep DoTs up -> fill.
    Bard was unique in the regard that he could move -> axed @ 52 with that stupid minuet.
    BLM shouldn't have to manage a DoT. Thunder always feels like "meeh need to squeeze it in somehow" and not like it belongs.

    Don't get me started on the 3 tanks... ._.
    Real talk.

    Why is Thunder a DoT and not Fire? I mean Thunder(Lightning) evaporates me, Fire burns me.

    Oh please get started on the 3 tanks discussions been stale lately.

  7. #32327
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Completely agree. Imho it's boring that every class has to do the same:
    Keep buffs up, keep DoTs up -> fill.
    Bard was unique in the regard that he could move -> axed @ 52 with that stupid minuet.
    BLM shouldn't have to manage a DoT. Thunder always feels like "meeh need to squeeze it in somehow" and not like it belongs.

    Don't get me started on the 3 tanks... ._.
    I'm one of many who enjoyed BRD up until WM at 52. I'll never be swayed from the mindset that WM was tacked onto BRD as a result of MCH getting Gauss Barrel. That being said, even with it's RNG factors and bazillion buttons to hit during the opener, MCH plays more fluidly than BRD. Shame, really, because I would probably play BRD a lot more otherwise. Could've left the dots as instant cast but still have the heavy hitting attacks with a cast time...something like that. There's this awkward aftercast time following the BRD dots that annoys the shit out of me.

    Thunder dot was pretty easy to maintain at 50, since the main filler spell (Fire) refreshed AF3, so there wasn't the worry of "oh shit AF3 dropped" as we have now thanks to Fire 4 not refreshing AF at all. I'm hoping the next thunder spell might be akin to Shadow Flare or Salted Earth.

  8. #32328
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Completely agree. Imho it's boring that every class has to do the same:
    Keep buffs up, keep DoTs up -> fill.
    Bard was unique in the regard that he could move -> axed @ 52 with that stupid minuet.
    BLM shouldn't have to manage a DoT. Thunder always feels like "meeh need to squeeze it in somehow" and not like it belongs.

    Don't get me started on the 3 tanks... ._.
    It always mystifies me that thunder was not the aoe when lightning arcs. blizzard 2 seems lame when a caster is rarely in melee range and fire 2 just feels like a solution to a problem that would not have been needed if thunder was just having the BLM aoe be summoning a thunderstorm.

    Or shit
    low level damage - fire
    damage over time - fire 2
    big fire proc - fire 3
    aoe - thunder
    ice buff - ice
    slow/cc - ice 2
    big ice proc - ice 3

    anything else really.
    Last edited by dope_danny; 2017-04-25 at 10:13 PM.

  9. #32329
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Oh please get started on the 3 tanks discussions been stale lately.
    Well all 3 tanks basically play exactly the same, right down to the 1-2-3 combos (one for extra aggro, one for a bit of active mitigation/self healing).
    How lame is that?
    You can choose your flavor and that's it.

    WAR is cool when you're playing off tank, b/c it's the only one that has unique skills in damage stance.

    I really like the idea of Thunder being BLMs AoE.

  10. #32330
    Fluffy Kitten Remilia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aruhen View Post
    Flying Cumulus Mount

    ....uh am I missing some sort of historical reference here?

    How disappointing that it's only in the US even though its "NA". I guess I could order from .com instead of .ca but then I have to pay the difference and that tends to be more expensive than buying it on .ca.
    西遊記/Journey to the West. It's a very old Chinese story that is also the basis for Dragon Ball (surprisingly).
    Anytime you see the monkey king (Sun Wukong), staff/pole thing, and mount riding, that's your origin. Piggy dude and other dude though are usually not present.

    I might get a new keyboard, been wanting something smaller so, /shrug.
    https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Mech.../dp/B06XMRQ68B
    May be my target.

  11. #32331
    Deleted
    Also wondered why thunder was a DOT and not some heavy hitting ability. Maybe could have Fire III leave a DOT on target or something, FII can spread it

  12. #32332
    Quote Originally Posted by Remilia View Post
    西遊記/Journey to the West. It's a very old Chinese story that is also the basis for Dragon Ball (surprisingly).
    Anytime you see the monkey king (Sun Wukong), staff/pole thing, and mount riding, that's your origin. Piggy dude and other dude though are usually not present.

    I might get a new keyboard, been wanting something smaller so, /shrug.
    https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Mech.../dp/B06XMRQ68B
    May be my target.
    I meant more so the name, sorry didn't phrase it properly. I'm guessing it's probably a reference to a certain type of clouds.
    Last edited by Aruhen; 2017-04-26 at 11:07 AM.

  13. #32333
    Quote Originally Posted by Aruhen View Post
    I meant more so the name, sorry didn't phrase it properly. I'm guessing it's probably a reference to a certain type of clouds.
    In that case, you're right. These are cumulus clouds:


  14. #32334
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Well all 3 tanks basically play exactly the same, right down to the 1-2-3 combos (one for extra aggro, one for a bit of active mitigation/self healing).
    How lame is that?
    You can choose your flavor and that's it.

    WAR is cool when you're playing off tank, b/c it's the only one that has unique skills in damage stance.

    I really like the idea of Thunder being BLMs AoE.
    Yep, I have an issue with that as well. I'm actually ok with tanks having similar tools (no not gameplay, but tools) to make balance easier and drive that difference on aesthetics, but I felt like they could have made the gameplay pieces a bit more varied for the tanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Logie View Post
    Also wondered why thunder was a DOT and not some heavy hitting ability. Maybe could have Fire III leave a DOT on target or something, FII can spread it
    I like the idea of spreading fire in some fashion as that fits thematically and could be fun to do mechanically.

  15. #32335
    For those who shared my frustration for the way in which the European promotion was handled last time around and how it could possibly be handled when it arrives once more, this should help:

    'Hello

    There's been a lot of talk regarding the North American and Japanese promotional campaigns. We are working to setup campaigns in PAL regions with the new in-game items. They will also be available for purchase on the Mog Station at a later date. We will share more information as soon as it becomes available.

    Please note that the North American and Japanese item codes won’t work on EU accounts.'


    Source: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4119420

    If the UK campaign is easily accessible I'll go for it, if it isn't I'll just wait until they go up on the Mog Station.

  16. #32336
    Now that seems like a fairly good compromise. Granted I was in the region with the Gamestop campaign last time and had no problems, but Europe as a whole was a bit of a clusterfuck.

  17. #32337
    Quote Originally Posted by Graeham View Post
    For those who shared my frustration for the way in which the European promotion was handled last time around and how it could possibly be handled when it arrives once more, this should help:

    'Hello

    There's been a lot of talk regarding the North American and Japanese promotional campaigns. We are working to setup campaigns in PAL regions with the new in-game items. They will also be available for purchase on the Mog Station at a later date. We will share more information as soon as it becomes available.

    Please note that the North American and Japanese item codes won’t work on EU accounts.'


    Source: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post4119420

    If the UK campaign is easily accessible I'll go for it, if it isn't I'll just wait until they go up on the Mog Station.
    Will probably just buy the Butler attire on Mogstation.

  18. #32338


    They didn't use Answers but Torn from the Heavens is awesome too.
    Really liked the songs they chose from each game.

    edit : Though the bias for FFVII is still present, 2-3 times longer than the other parts...and, imo, the FFVII part being so long drags the medley down.
    Last edited by MrTharne; 2017-04-26 at 05:20 PM.

  19. #32339
    Pandaren Monk Melsiren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    WAR is cool when you're playing off tank, b/c it's the only one that has unique skills in damage stance.

    To be fair, there's absolutely no reason to not be in Deliverance even if you're "Main" tanking.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    Yep, I have an issue with that as well. I'm actually ok with tanks having similar tools (no not gameplay, but tools) to make balance easier and drive that difference on aesthetics, but I felt like they could have made the gameplay pieces a bit more varied for the tanks.
    I mean, as some one who is pretty well versed in tanking, the only one of the three tanks I really feel needs some serious love is Paladin. When I say this I'm not even talking about Tank balance, Paladin right now is just very flawed compared to the other two tanks they are like a diet DRK who deals significantly less damage, who's two niche's are minor group utility support and better soaking for physical (read auto attack) damage (I guess you could argue that's balance)

    Two of their three combos are structured horrible.

    you have the Damage combo Fast blade(150 Potency)- Savage blade (200 Potency, Enmity/threat ability)- Royal Authority (350 Potency)

    You have your Manaregen combo that has a fucking -dot- as the last ability in the chain. Fast Blade(150 Potency)- Riot Blade (250 Potency)- Goring Blade(240 potency )


    By your self, or in small group content this does not really seem like an issue. However when you compare them with other tanks it creates a gods damned mess.


    The easiest comparison would be the DRK.

    you have the Damage combo:

    PLD Fast blade(150 Potency)- Savage blade (200 Potency, Enmity/threat ability)- Royal Authority (350 Potency)
    DRK Hard Slash (150 Potency)- Syphon Strike (250 Potency, Mana return)- Soul Eater ( 260 Potency, 400 Potency under Dark Arts)

    Then you have the Mana Regen Combo:

    PLD Fast Blade(150 Potency)- Riot Blade (250 Potency)- Goring Blade(240 potency with a dot attached)
    DRK Hard Slash (150 Potency)- Syphon Strike (250 Potency, Mana return)- Delirium (280 potency.)



    The real issue here is Savage Blade, when working with another tank every time you do an ability with increased Enmity the other tank also has to, to ensure they keep a threat lead. So in the hypothetical setting of a PLD and DRK tanking combo, even in a world where every tank dealt and took the same amount of damage. The Paladin will always have to "Main" tank, because it is every tanks responsibility to deal optimal damage on top of surviving and holding threat. A Paladin while they are not holding threat could not do their Max damage combo because it forces the other tank do to their full enmity combo to compensate for Royal Authority being attached to Savage Blade. The PLD by using the Royal Authority chain while he is not tanking, causes the DRK to do his much weaker Power Slash combo, this causes the entire raid/group to lose more total DPS than the Paladin gains by doing his damage combo.

    For easy comparison.

    PLD Fast blade(150 Potency)- Savage blade (200 Potency, Enmity/threat ability)- Royal Authority (350 Potency) Total potency: 700
    DRK Hard Slash (150 Potency)- Spinning Slash (220 potency, Enmity/threat ability)- Power Slash (300 Potency Enmity/threat ability) Total Potency:670

    Combined Potency: 1370


    PLD Fast Blade(150 Potency)- Riot Blade (250 Potency)- Goring Blade(240 potency with a dot attached) Total potency: 640
    DRK Hard Slash (150 Potency)- Syphon Strike (250 Potency, Mana return)- Soul Eater ( 260 Potency, 400 Potency under Dark Arts) Total potency: 800

    Combined Potency: 1440

    giving a total of a 70 potency group wide loss -every- time a PLD is not tanking and uses his damage combo, this is of course with out putting damage increase buffs like Darkside into the mix, this is just making it simple.

    I could go on, and compare the full enmity combo for PLD with the Damage combo for DRK, however I think the point has been made.

    The the fix is simple, make Royal authority combo off Riot blade, making Savage blade only part of the full enmity combo.

    PLD Fast Blade(150 Potency)- Riot Blade (250 Potency) Royal Authority (350 Potency) Total :750
    DRK Hard Slash (150 Potency)- Syphon Strike (250 Potency, Mana return)- Soul Eater ( 260 Potency, 400 Potency under Dark Arts) Total potency: 800

    Grand Total: 1550 potency.

    This would fix the above stated enmity issue, and give the PLD a much needed damage dealt buff.



    PLD needs to be more than just physical damage mitigation tank that uses Mana. As of right now that's all it is, and when you compare it to the DRK (Who took its job.) It does not even hold a candle.

    I'm pretty sure the whole idea was. PLD (Physical heavily defensive tank) DRK (Magic mitigation, the ability to be offensive and defensive easily.) and WAR (Health based agressive offensive tank.) However the outcome ended up making PLD the weakest tank, in a game where Tank damage is very important and the only real deadly damage in the game can't be blocked.
    Last edited by Melsiren; 2017-04-26 at 06:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
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    I AM the victim.

  20. #32340
    Scarab Lord Anzaman's Avatar
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    Got my Dark Knight from 55 to 60.. and Warrior from 55 to 56... and met this..



    ..end of rested exp.

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