Why no vanilla timewalking?

[Deleted]

You clearly havent played a lot in classic... Try decursing 40 people raid without modern addons as a mage while keeping up dps, run away from constant fire, know that you have a 1 in 40 chance of getting a debuff, notice it on time to run out of group and not blow everyone up. Have to kite adds during boss fights as a healer while healing your designated group, keep track of your own stacks of debuffs and know when to run out/los to clear them with no add-on telling you, try to avoid getting toasted by dragon breath by looking up to see the position of the boss and try to guesstimate where the breath would drop, know how to do your class only mechanic that only happens on 1 boss, and I only partially covered first 2 tiers + onxyia so far. Not even gonna get into some of the nightmare mechanics in AQ and Naxx

People don't realize how much simpler everything is now because of the current raid addons. Keep in mind people can't still fucking do mechanics with multiple addons + people in voice telling them exactly what to do. Shit wasn't easy back in classic when every raid encounter/mechanic was new and there weren't addons to hold your hand through the whole thing

You're making those mechanics sound WAY harder than they were. Also raid addons were around in Vanilla. People just had less experience with the game so fights felt much harder. Considering you can do Mythic bosses at the moment with absolutely no addons doing Vanilla bosses with no addons was extremely easy. It's literally down to the fact the game wasn't over a decade old and the general playerbase was absolutely clueless.

Tbh it sounds like you're the one who didn't play much Vanilla WoW.

[Flurryfang]

You clearly havent played a lot in classic... Try decursing 40 people raid without modern addons as a mage while keeping up dps, run away from constant fire, know that you have a 1 in 40 chance of getting a debuff, notice it on time to run out of group and not blow everyone up. Have to kite adds during boss fights as a healer while healing your designated group, keep track of your own stacks of debuffs and know when to run out/los to clear them with no add-on telling you, try to avoid getting toasted by dragon breath by looking up to see the position of the boss and try to guesstimate where the breath would drop, know how to do your class only mechanic that only happens on 1 boss, and I only partially covered first 2 tiers + onxyia so far. Not even gonna get into some of the nightmare mechanics in AQ and Naxx

People don't realize how much simpler everything is now because of the current raid addons. Keep in mind people can't still fucking do mechanics with multiple addons + people in voice telling them exactly what to do. Shit wasn't easy back in classic when every raid encounter/mechanic was new and there weren't addons to hold your hand through the whole thing

Since i am a guy who don't use raid addons in anyway, i will call your speech bullshit. ZG and MC was 100 times simpler then the current raids we have today. 80% of the bosses in those instances required nothing from DPS other the dps their main target. There was very little when it came to target switching, avoiding mechanics, working with other people and just in general being active. Nowadays, no matter if you are a dps, healer or tank, you have to do alot more then before, which is something that addons can do very little about.


PS: Also, addons existed in Vanilla aswell. I remember alot of raid addons telling me timers, giving warnings when something happend and helping me with debuffing. Much have really not changed with it comes to that.

[ItachiZaku]

Have you realized that 4 out of 5 of those dungeons already got a rework rigth ? (Well, stockade also got some changes).

Yep, so that's probably their only option. Hogger was a really nice addition.

[faithbane]

You're making those mechanics sound WAY harder than they were. Also raid addons were around in Vanilla. People just had less experience with the game so fights felt much harder. Considering you can do Mythic bosses at the moment with absolutely no addons doing Vanilla bosses with no addons was extremely easy. It's literally down to the fact the game wasn't over a decade old and the general playerbase was absolutely clueless.

Tbh it sounds like you're the one who didn't play much Vanilla WoW.

LOL, tell me one person who played a single mythic boss without a raid add-on.. clueless pfft. Based on what you are saying I can see how clueless you are and just trying to sound like you know shit. I played every single raid in classic (couldn't finish Naxx). GJ repeating my last sentence as if you were making a counter argument btw.

[Sencha]

No. Just no.
Mechaniscs were easier. You had no external tools to help but the core mechanics were very basic (kick/dispell/run away and almost nothing more).
Fights were hard but not complex.

Because fights are complex now? lol

[faithbane]

Since i am a guy who don't use raid addons in anyway, i will call your speech bullshit. ZG and MC was 100 times simpler then the current raids we have today. 80% of the bosses in those instances required nothing from DPS other the dps their main target. There was very little when it came to target switching, avoiding mechanics, working with other people and just in general being active. Nowadays, no matter if you are a dps, healer or tank, you have to do alot more then before, which is something that addons can do very little about.


PS: Also, addons existed in Vanilla aswell. I remember alot of raid addons telling me timers, giving warnings when something happend and helping me with debuffing. Much have really not changed with it comes to that.

Lol, I am a one outlier to the norm so your argument is invalid! Are you an art student? On many bosses, dps had to run in and out constantly and los/drop debuffs and stacks on bosses, mages that had to spam decurse on multiple bosses, hunters that to kite adds and de-enrage bosses timely, warlocks had to repeat banish on their assigned adds etc.. "I did nothing but dps" is a lot different then saying "80% of the bosses in those instances required nothing from DPS other the dps their main target"

Addons existed yes, but they were EXTREMELY primitive. You have /range in game right now lol.. those addons didnt even tell you how far you had to run before you were safe at the time. There were no raid markers or marked spots even.. It seems like you forgot things a lot more then what you think you remember.. What you remember is perhaps from another expansion. Sooo much have changed and improved when it comes to addons your statement shows how much you don't know..

[Chrno]

You clearly havent played a lot in classic... Try decursing 40 people raid without modern addons as a mage while keeping up dps, run away from constant fire, know that you have a 1 in 40 chance of getting a debuff, notice it on time to run out of group and not blow everyone up. Have to kite adds during boss fights as a healer while healing your designated group, keep track of your own stacks of debuffs and know when to run out/los to clear them with no add-on telling you, try to avoid getting toasted by dragon breath by looking up to see the position of the boss and try to guesstimate where the breath would drop, know how to do your class only mechanic that only happens on 1 boss, and I only partially covered first 2 tiers + onxyia so far. Not even gonna get into some of the nightmare mechanics in AQ and Naxx

People don't realize how much simpler everything is now because of the current raid addons. Keep in mind people can't still fucking do mechanics with multiple addons + people in voice telling them exactly what to do. Shit wasn't easy back in classic when every raid encounter/mechanic was new and there weren't addons to hold your hand through the whole thing

I did play classic and i still stand with what i said. I didn't say it was easy back in the day but now that we DO have raid addons it makes most fights easy as hell. I am not alking about Naxx as i didn't do that and im sure the mechanics in there were brutal but the entry raids had really simple core mechanics. Most bosses had 1 phase with 1 core mechanic. Which is ideal for the LFR crowd

[Deleted]

Because fights are complex now? lol

Of course fights are more complex than back in Vanilla.
- More mechanics to handle (volume x2 or x3 compared to first raids of WoW)
- Almost half of them require player interactions / coordination, which is waaaay more than back then
- pure ST boss almost don't exist anymore. Adds management has become the standard lf raiding
- we have more and more interactions with elements of environment (existed in Vanilla but on a less regular basis - Ragna, first boss of BWL which I never recall the name, ...)

Don't mistake the complexity of the design for the difficulty to execute the fight.

[RoKPaNda]

Since i am a guy who don't use raid addons in anyway, i will call your speech bullshit. ZG and MC was 100 times simpler then the current raids we have today. 80% of the bosses in those instances required nothing from DPS other the dps their main target. There was very little when it came to target switching, avoiding mechanics, working with other people and just in general being active. Nowadays, no matter if you are a dps, healer or tank, you have to do alot more then before, which is something that addons can do very little about.


PS: Also, addons existed in Vanilla aswell. I remember alot of raid addons telling me timers, giving warnings when something happend and helping me with debuffing. Much have really not changed with it comes to that.

I guess the new hipster thing to do is to pretend that vanilla WoW wasn't in any way challenging. It was a different kind of challenging. Modern day raiding bombards you with numerous mechanics of stand here, click the thing, don't stand in bullshit, dodge the beam, etc. Classic WoW was from an entirely different era of MMOs, classic WoW mechanics were very much about making the experience as unpleasant as possible for the player. Modern Mythic raiders would be able to complete Vanilla / BC content in it's original state, though not as easily as they'd like to think they would, and classic WoW players that were capable of defeating C'thun and progressing in Naxx would also be able to defeat modern raid encounters. Raiders haven't changed much, it's the mentality that makes them successful.

Pretending like all of Vanilla content was easy because MC was eventually pretty faceroll is hilarious.

[Deleted]

You're making those mechanics sound WAY harder than they were. Also raid addons were around in Vanilla. People just had less experience with the game so fights felt much harder. Considering you can do Mythic bosses at the moment with absolutely no addons doing Vanilla bosses with no addons was extremely easy. It's literally down to the fact the game wasn't over a decade old and the general playerbase was absolutely clueless.

Tbh it sounds like you're the one who didn't play much Vanilla WoW.

I was going to agree with you, but then I remembered the sheer hell that was LFR Molten Core. Wiping on trash left and right, wiping on bosses multiple times...look, undoubtedly, the game has matured since then and raid encounters are designed with addons in mind these days. But the average Joe Casual is as clueless now as they ever were in vanilla. Probably more clueless, because there's so much more to know.

[Squishy Tia]

Vanilla had a different dungeon structure than later expansions, with many dungeons being a few hours worth of experiance (Strat, BRD, Maraudon) in comparison to quick dungeons with 3-4 bosses that started in BC. It would be difficult to LFD them while still keeping the "timewalking" (as in, experiance how those things used to be) experience.

Vanilla dungeons were broken up into wings a couple expansions ago. The hours long argument no longer holds true.

[Flurryfang]

Lol, I am a one outlier to the norm so your argument is invalid! Are you an art student? On many bosses, dps had to run in and out constantly and los/drop debuffs and stacks on bosses, mages that had to spam decurse on multiple bosses, hunters that to kite adds and de-enrage bosses timely, warlocks had to repeat banish on their assigned adds etc.. "I did nothing but dps" is a lot different then saying "80% of the bosses in those instances required nothing from DPS other the dps their main target"

Addons existed yes, but they were EXTREMELY primitive. You have /range in game right now lol.. those addons didnt even tell you how far you had to run before you were safe at the time. There were no raid markers or marked spots even.. It seems like you forgot things a lot more then what you think you remember.. What you remember is perhaps from another expansion. Sooo much have changed and improved when it comes to addons your statement shows how much you don't know..

An art student?? What kind of insult is that? xD You are already showing the sign of a troll here, so try keeping it PG13 plz m8

I think the word you have wrong here is many. Alot of bosses for dps was tank/spank, many was just dps/healing checks and it was first later on that you actually had to do specific things as a dps outside of doing dps. I am in no way saying Vanilla was easy, because it wasent, but compared to today, the mechanics of bosses was really quite undermined on most bosses. There were a few who had some hard to handle mechanics, but they were rare and not the majority.

LoS is also a thing, that was used on very few bosses. It was not a general thing and Blizzard rarely used it as an intended way to deal with a mechanic. Outside of 1-2 bosses in all Vanilla, tell when Warlocks had to banish or priests had to MC? Sure they all had their moments, but for the overall group, people rarely had to do anything outside pushing their specific button.

Addons don't have to tell you all that xD We have a huge luxury today with these addons, but most of them are really not needed. You are saying, that addons make raiding so much easier today, but they are pretty much only doing what we already could do by ourself without trying too much. Addons in the past were primitive for sure, but they were insanely effective. You again seem to forget how much time you had to many things and how often you could take your sweet time to some things, aslong as you did them right.

- - - Updated - - -

I guess the new hipster thing to do is to pretend that vanilla WoW wasn't in any way challenging. It was a different kind of challenging. Modern day raiding bombards you with numerous mechanics of stand here, click the thing, don't stand in bullshit, dodge the beam, etc. Classic WoW was from an entirely different era of MMOs, classic WoW mechanics were very much about making the experience as unpleasant as possible for the player. Modern Mythic raiders would be able to complete Vanilla / BC content in it's original state, though not as easily as they'd like to think they would, and classic WoW players that were capable of defeating C'thun and progressing in Naxx would also be able to defeat modern raid encounters. Raiders haven't changed much, it's the mentality that makes them successful.

Pretending like all of Vanilla content was easy because MC was eventually pretty faceroll is hilarious.

I never said Vanilla was easy, i just said it was a simpler time, that matched a simpler class design and simpler ability structure. People have gotten better since then and the tools for us to get better has also improved. If Vanilla came out today with the same mechanics and the same class design, i will bet you that most raids would be cleared quite fast by the majority of the raiding base, because the playerbase is simply alot more "hardcore" then in the past.

While i agree, that the past expansion raids are not totally easy, i also think that some people are rolling way too much on the nostalgia of difficulty that they experienced in the past. People get better, tools get better and old raids get easier.

[Kiingy]

Lvl 60 scholo, how I still miss you.

On the 7.2 PTR the /worldport command was working for all players for a short while, the old scholo still exists, completely untouched. You could port there.

Would be great if they made it part of the classic timewalking, it would be a dungeon you could only experience during the event.

[alt-ithist]

You clearly havent played a lot in classic... Try decursing 40 people raid without modern addons as a mage while keeping up dps, run away from constant fire, know that you have a 1 in 40 chance of getting a debuff, notice it on time to run out of group and not blow everyone up. Have to kite adds during boss fights as a healer while healing your designated group, keep track of your own stacks of debuffs and know when to run out/los to clear them with no add-on telling you, try to avoid getting toasted by dragon breath by looking up to see the position of the boss and try to guesstimate where the breath would drop, know how to do your class only mechanic that only happens on 1 boss, and I only partially covered first 2 tiers + onxyia so far. Not even gonna get into some of the nightmare mechanics in AQ and Naxx

People don't realize how much simpler everything is now because of the current raid addons. Keep in mind people can't still fucking do mechanics with multiple addons + people in voice telling them exactly what to do. Shit wasn't easy back in classic when every raid encounter/mechanic was new and there weren't addons to hold your hand through the whole thing

There was an add on to decurse. You didn't even have to target anyone, just spam the button. I was raiding Naxx as a clicker, can't imagine doing today's mythical as such.

[Jimson]

You clearly havent played a lot in classic... Try decursing 40 people raid without modern addons as a mage while keeping up dps, run away from constant fire, know that you have a 1 in 40 chance of getting a debuff, notice it on time to run out of group and not blow everyone up. Have to kite adds during boss fights as a healer while healing your designated group, keep track of your own stacks of debuffs and know when to run out/los to clear them with no add-on telling you, try to avoid getting toasted by dragon breath by looking up to see the position of the boss and try to guesstimate where the breath would drop, know how to do your class only mechanic that only happens on 1 boss, and I only partially covered first 2 tiers + onxyia so far. Not even gonna get into some of the nightmare mechanics in AQ and Naxx

People don't realize how much simpler everything is now because of the current raid addons. Keep in mind people can't still fucking do mechanics with multiple addons + people in voice telling them exactly what to do. Shit wasn't easy back in classic when every raid encounter/mechanic was new and there weren't addons to hold your hand through the whole thing

"Everything is simpler now"

Yeah, that whole "Wait for 5 sunders, spam one ability, watch for 2-3 mechanics" strategy for 90% of the bosses in Vanilla was super-complicated. It was difficult at the time because it was new to most people. No question about that. But saying that it was harder then that it is now is simply ridiculous. An LFR these days has more mechanics than a Vanilla raid.

[The Flavour Cat]

They seem to be working on the Dragons of Nightmare, Kazzak and Azuregos, so I don't see why they can't make dungeons scaled to lvl 60. If they do add dungeons down the line, I'd put Stratholme's Rivendare side up so we can also try for the mount while we're there.

[Lady Dragonheart]

Lvl 60 scholo, how I still miss you.

I rarely agree with you, but yes, I do miss old Scholo... as well as old Sunken Temple...

[Etrock08]

You clearly havent played a lot in classic... Try decursing 40 people raid without modern addons as a mage while keeping up dps, run away from constant fire, know that you have a 1 in 40 chance of getting a debuff, notice it on time to run out of group and not blow everyone up. Have to kite adds during boss fights as a healer while healing your designated group, keep track of your own stacks of debuffs and know when to run out/los to clear them with no add-on telling you, try to avoid getting toasted by dragon breath by looking up to see the position of the boss and try to guesstimate where the breath would drop, know how to do your class only mechanic that only happens on 1 boss, and I only partially covered first 2 tiers + onxyia so far. Not even gonna get into some of the nightmare mechanics in AQ and Naxx

People don't realize how much simpler everything is now because of the current raid addons. Keep in mind people can't still fucking do mechanics with multiple addons + people in voice telling them exactly what to do. Shit wasn't easy back in classic when every raid encounter/mechanic was new and there weren't addons to hold your hand through the whole thing

A) Addons in vanilla WoW allowed you to decurse automatically which is why blizzard started implimenting restrictions on addons and what they can affect.

B.) This is a simple mechanic that is still used today in many situations and was not difficult to manage in any way shape or form and the only issues from this came from players that lagged or flat out never payed attention to anything.

C.) Onyxia breath was not tougher to manage than looking for breaths in halls of valor.

D.) None of these mechanics were nightmares, annoying yes, but not nightmares. They were simple mechanics, that are still used today. Also most fights only had that single mechanic as a threatning mechanic. Baron Geddon only put bombs on people and teleported to random groups. Ony, by far had the most mechanics to pay attention to but even then they only happened in individual phases.

E.) Addons held hands more than ever back then, Bigwigs existed (Deadly Boss Mods) Auto decurses existed, Healing addons were rediculous in what they were doing (Auto targeting lowest health characters etc)

F.) Naxx had some good mechanics but AQ40 did not, the most difficult thing in those raids was managing 40 people, dealing with lagg, and having the very specific gear you needed.

[Jyggalag]

They've already said it's because they would be too 'broken'. Would take extensive work to get them right.

[Okacz]

Vanilla dungeons were broken up into wings a couple expansions ago. The hours long argument no longer holds true.

But they idea of timewalking is experiancing them like they used to be. With them being shredded to wings, and like half of them being revamped and completly different (SM, RFK, RFC, Deadmines) it's not possible.