I suspect High/Nightborne consider themselves Kaldorei but do BElves feel highborne?

[Aucald]

I dunno if those people would constitute a social class. People like Farodin by the time of WotA were really rare. His small order was likely fading away by the time of WotA.

They were just people who lived outside of urban areas who we dont even have confirmation that they actively practiced even a rudimentary or crude form of nature magic. They were just the plebs in general. The people who became the first druids were moonguards and likely the plebs as well.

Think of them as the would-be Druids then, the marginalized or otherwise iconoclastic Night Elves who were not part of the upper classes of ancient Night Elven society (e.g. Highborne, Moon Guard, Priesthood of Elune, etc.) Plebeian as a term works well enough, too; these were the people Malfurion brought in under his banner when Kaldorei society was restructured after the War of the Ancients.

[Gaexion Ramza Beoulve]

Physically speaking Naga, Nightborne, Nightelves, and Bloodelves are descended from the highborne. So they're more or less brothers/cousins with Naga being the extreme.

Culturally the Naga and Nightborne are closest to the highborne. The Nightelves and Bloodelves are cut off in a sense, having evolved the most over time and being the most isolated.

- - - Updated - - -

Fucking elves it's always a goddamn mess with these people.

[Wildmoon]

Physically speaking Naga, Nightborne, Nightelves, and Bloodelves are descended from the highborne. So they're more or less brothers/cousins with Naga being the extreme.

Culturally the Naga and Nightborne are closest to the highborne. The Nightelves and Bloodelves are cut off in a sense, having evolved the most over time and being the most isolated.

- - - Updated - - -

Fucking elves it's always a goddamn mess with these people.

Highborne had no distinct physical trait. They were night elves.

[Rhlor]

The shaldorei opnion depends on who you're interacting with. Elisande's lot, in typical highborne fashion believe anyone not as exalted as them are beneath them. REgarding the elves, they have no bad thing to say tot he sin'dorei except disappointment at their choice to oppose them. The others have done very un-kaldorei things, the current kaldorei have abandoened their heritage and legacy preferring to skulk around in forests (according to her), the quel'dorei are polluting themselves by mingling with lesser races (i.e. the high elf/human relationship), teh shen'dralar aren't really referenced here as they are not present.

But Thalyssra and the sane nightborne .. i.e. most of the city you find a fiercely proud and respectful of their Kaldorei heritage. Remember the shal'dorei were the Kaldorei or last of the Kaldorei they thought, until Gul'dan came knocking and the shield went down, so to them, their memory of Kaldorei was themselves and the entire empire in its glory that perished with the invasion - they revere everything about their past, look at how longingly Occuleth mentions the prayers to Elune that rose from the temple of Falanaar. The memeories and reverence to the ancestors in Tel'anor, the utter surprise at seeing the Kaldorei again whether its Farodin but especially Tyrande and her group.. seeing how archaic they have become.

It is my feeling that the shal'dorei whou nlike the blood elves/high elves, revere everything about themselves and who they once were, not just the arcane legacy, they have the same night/nocturnal nature, star/moon fascination and loved all the good things of the empire, which was actually pretty amazing in every respect till the Queen called the legion.. remember hte night elf empire was Elven perfection at its greatest eight, that over time through arrogance fell to the decadence that resulted in the summoning of the legion - the decadent behaviour comes at the same time the legion is first contacted, my feeling is that this attitude actually started from the Queen even though she was liked and all the blame was put on the highborne.

Despite that, I feel that the shal'dorei's reaction to the night elves would be very different from the blood elves because of how they deeply revere their Kaldorei past and those that gave their lives to save them. i.e. the night elves who have now returned, remember Tyrande, Malfurion, Illidan all come from Suramar, as well as Maiev, Jarod, .. Ravencrests army launched from his fotress in Val'sharah, a province of Suramar, and many from the city and surrounding regions formed the main rebelliong aginst the queen. It was Suramar v Zin'Azshari .. the shal'dorei have a world to remain in both because of the sacrifice of their ancestors (which until recently were what the kaldorei were) and the nightwell saving them.

For this reason, I agrewith an excellent post that was made on the beta forums or official forusms not sure if it was US or EU,that put forward a very interesting theory/prediction that i don't think anyone will anticipate - admiration for the kaldorei. Which is a refreshing change from the scorn and disdain that has come from the only highborne related bunch we knew (till Catalcysm/legion) the high/blood elves. The theory suggests that shal'dorei victors of Suramar will greatly respect the kaldorei because of the past and actually be touched by their lowly state. They'd feel admiration for how their ancestors/kin achieved the impossible,not once but twice without magic. A victory that saved the shal'dorei and also put them to shame for hiding with all their amazing magic, not joining the fight, and having these ones to protect the world twice.

They would feel they failed their kin because of the abuse of the arcane perpetuated by highborne kind, and will admire them for having achieved as much as they did without them and also feel that it is their sacred duty to restore their kin's total confidence in their arcane birthright.

the success of the modenr kaldorei would inspire some shal'dorei to a simpler less arcane intwined existence, as some would pick up the path of the druid and the priest especially with the Cathedral cleared and the sisterhood back,and after al Elune's wonders shown. However they would be keen to show themselves both brave after the victory over Elisande and the legion, and lso prove to their skeptical kin that they should fully embrace the arcane. Every night elf embracing the arcane would be a victory to the shal'dorei who would be far more encouraged by it than the Shen'dralar who have been training some. But the shal'dorei would be after removing all the prejudiced stigma from the kaldorei, whereas the kaldorei would generally be ensuring that the balance the nightborne have found is always maintained. The kaldorei will feel that for the salvaiton and preservation of their kin, the shal'dorei, they must bring diversity and restore nature affinity, to ensure the shal'dorei never lose balance again.

Unlike what happened with the high elves, the kaldorei would embrace the shal'dorei and vice versa each fo therir own reasons, to preserve themsevles and ensure elven kind never perpetuates the kind of horror Lady Azshara fell to. This could anger the high/blood elves more, because they'd be like "oh so now you are willing to listen to them, but when we put forward the same arguements you shunned and exiled us", to which the night elf response would be the balance teh shald'doeri have achieved through the arcan'dor and the proof of repsonsibility that they have demonstrated by both putting their lives on the line for their city and fighting the legion. To the blood elves they might respond, are reunion 10,000 years later was made in good faith to your leader KAel'thas Sunstrider, but instead you joined the horde and later the burning legion, treated with hositlity and murdered our convoy sent to you..

you get hte picture, would be lovely to see these sort of discussions, the blood elves/high elves peeved at what they might interpret as a double standarrd by the night elves, the night elves obviously have changed, the arcane is back, and in the nightborne they have seen balance restored, something which they had a hand in personally so are certain of its effect,plus the iwillingness to let go fo the nightwell is quite the move that would warm the high priestess.. theo nly thing that would be better would be an official invitation to return to her city of birth and the HQ of the order of Elune once our business is finished.

I really love the idea of this, I so agree that we've had no one really ever thank or even admire the night elves for their role against the legion, just disdain and distrust, from high/blood elves and humans etc.. so would be nice to see one of their own group appreiciate them.

You forget that the highborne / quel'dorei / thalassian fought in the war of the ancients against the legion.
Dath'remar saved tyrande from her imprisonment and was very proud of his powers and of being a highborne.

Say that the night elves won the war of the ancients without using magic is a lie because not only were the highborne / quel'dorei / thalassian also the moon guard fought against the legion

The comments on the night elves also come from the nightfallen

Silgryn says "It is hard to believe we are all descended from the same elves. None of us are truly impervious to the passage of time. It seems."

Silgryn: "The night elves use bows! I do not think a bow has been made in Suramar in centuries. I wonder if they would let me use one for practice..."
sylgrin names night elves the forces of tyrande, it is clear that besides thinking that the night elves are primitive, he have not considered a "Night Elf" himself
Victoire: "I saw the Sentinels doing target practice over in their camp. they sure can shoot...We never really embraced the bow. After all, who needs such primitive instruments when you can craft the fabric of the world to fire missiles for you?"
But the valuation they have on the blood elves is very positive
Silgryn: "These blood elves are battle-hardened and disciplined. Their strength will be most useful."

Victoire: "These blood elves have some formidable magic. Let us hope it is enough to counter the might of the Nightwell."

Elisalde has nothing bad to say about the blood elves really just that they do not support their decision.

Even Lothrius is interested in visiting quel'thalas after chatting with the blood elves mages.

Is noted in the words of rommath and lady liadrin the desire to help the nightborne, blood elves think of the nightborne as their relatives members of their kind.
Aethas has a nightborne apprentice
Personally I want to believe that one day all the elves will be together and see each other as brothers as it happens with the illidari

[ravenmoon]

The Blood Elves see themselves as the direct inheritors of the ancient Night Elven Highborne: the continuation of the model of civilization exemplified by the ancient Night Elven enclaves like Farondale, Suramar, and Zin-Azshari. They refer to themselves many times as Highborne, Elven nobility, and keepers of the Arcane legacy of their ancient Night Elven ancestors. Most High and Blood Elves feel that the Kaldorei Night Elves are a technological or social step back for Elvenkind - embracing a rougher, simpler lifestyle and cultural aesthetic that they find primitive or barbaric. Though both the Quel'dorei and Kaldorei were united in rejecting the worst excesses of the ancient Night Elven civilization (as personified by Queen Azshara herself), the former group felt that the rejection of that ideal didn't require the wholesale redefinition of their culture and that there was a place for moderate and regulated practice of the Arcane. The Kaldorei, raw from the wounds of the War of the Ancients and many of the Highborne's complete betrayal of the world to the Legion, felt that their civilization needed to be upended and started anew - with a stronger focus on their connection to the world and an abject refusal of the Arcane in their society due to the belief its use via the new Well of Eternity would inevitably lead to the return of the Burning Legion to our world.

Dath'remar Sunstrider tried to reorganize the High Elves under new precepts to better set themselves apart from their forebearers (and no doubt to assuage his own sense of wounded pride from the enforced exile from their previous homes). He adopted a crimson/gold architectural aesthetic which was set firmly against the blue/purple/silver tones of Night Elven art and architecture, as well as the pre-eminence of fire and sun motifs in contrast to the Night Elves' moon and star ones ([strike]reverence of nature and moonlight [/strike]). Legacies of the Kaldorei persist among the Quel'dorei, of course - many of their ancient artifacts still bear distinctively Kaldorei names and connotations, and versions of Kaldorei beliefs, elements of language, and even cultural mores and folkways persist.

Eloquently put, I'd just add some things here and there to ensure the emphasis isn't unduly put. The burning legion addition is added because this is defining reason the cessation or complete cessation of arcane magic on pain of death at first then exile later. Such a strict penalty would never have been imposed if it were merely just for philosophical or ideological reasons leading to a re-ordering into a better society. The Kaldorei could have rebuilt all their devastating losses, but the use of the arcane Well of power was badly managed in the end, and the use led to the legion's return. As all the survivors were the ones who fought the Queen, responsibly using magic would not have been an issue requiring complete and enforced abstention. It could have become the preferred lifestyle choice, especially amongst druids, but wouldn't have dominated so.

The complete abstention was entirely to prevent the return of the burning legion, while the other reasons are true, magic presented issues they had now decided they could exist without its benefits, it would not have been insurmountable ones. We see Farodin advocating balance, not abstention. So we can only conclude Malfurion's stance was principally because arcane usage would bring back the burning legion, and that would mean almost certain death for the world, so they cut it out, and imposed a penalty of death (later exile) which is no easy thing for an Elf.


For the second bit, it really is moon and star motifs, because the high elves retained a deep reverence for nature, remember their difference was that the arcane could play a positive and necessary role too in elven society, it wasn't the abstention of nature, WC2 shows very nature reverent high elves, and the blood elf starting area shows a measure of that persists amongst hte blood elves too, certainly in the farstriders. Starlight is also a key part, so moon and stars. The stars guide you, Stars bless you are very common sayings amongst kaldorei and shal'dorei and highborne - all the night elf connected races. And you missed out the biggest one of all, change from nocturnal to diurnal and the rejection of Elune. Elune was switched to the light, and the arcane lost its moonlight/starlight emphasis you see in the nightborne, turning to a fire/sun based thing.

[Aucald]

Eloquently put, I'd just add some things here and there to ensure the emphasis isn't unduly put. The burning legion addition is added because this is defining reason the cessation or complete cessation of arcane magic on pain of death at first then exile later. Such a strict penalty would never have been imposed if it were merely just for philosophical or ideological reasons leading to a re-ordering into a better society. The Kaldorei could have rebuilt all their devastating losses, but the use of the arcane Well of power was badly managed in the end, and the use led to the legion's return. As all the survivors were the ones who fought the Queen, responsibly using magic would not have been an issue requiring complete and enforced abstention. It could have become the preferred lifestyle choice, especially amongst druids, but wouldn't have dominated so.

I think the key part of the "belief" angle is the notion that Malfurion and Tyrande thought there were no ways that the Arcane could be practiced that wouldn't re-attract the attention of the Legion - they were strongly against even responsible practice of the Arcane, feeling that zero Arcane magic was the only acceptable policy in their new model of society. The Highborne practitioners of the Arcane obviously disagreed, and eventually the conflict of ideologies became so severe that the Highborne magisters opted to go for a grand gesture to prove their might and ended up being exiled from Kalimdor (Malfurion actually argued the judgment down as the traditional punishment for practicing Arcane magic in the post-war Kaldorei society was death).

The High Elves proved Malfurion and the Kaldorei wrong, however; by creating complex wards culminating in the great Runestones to hide both their magic and their source of power from the eyes of the demons. I can only wonder what the newer Kaldorei might've been able to achieve if Arcane and Druidic power could've co-existed peaceably in a new society. Hybrid feats of both arts like the arcan'dor seem like marvels.

[ravenmoon]

You forget that the highborne / quel'dorei / thalassian fought in the war of the ancients against the legion.
Dath'remar saved tyrande from her imprisonment and was very proud of his powers and of being a highborne.

I did not forget, my focus was more on the reaction of the shal'dorei to the kaldorei in contrast to how the high/blood elves have regarded the night elves. Blizzard have pointed it out clearly on several occassions that the high/blood elves have contempt for the night elves for sitting on such power and not using it. The resentment traces back to the exile the result of a difference of opinion for the direction of the elven people led to. It was the Zin'Azshari highborne in one corner, versus the Suramar night elves in the other one, as they were the majority, and Malfurion the saviour, the Zin'Azshari highborne could not persuade them.

Say that the night elves won the war of the ancients without using magic is a lie because not only were the highborne / quel'dorei / thalassian also the moon guard fought against the legion

The comments on the night elves also come from the nightfallen

Silgryn says "It is hard to believe we are all descended from the same elves. None of us are truly impervious to the passage of time. It seems."

Silgryn: "The night elves use bows! I do not think a bow has been made in Suramar in centuries. I wonder if they would let me use one for practice..."
sylgrin names night elves the forces of tyrande, it is clear that besides thinking that the night elves are primitive, he have not considered a "Night Elf" himself
Victoire: "I saw the Sentinels doing target practice over in their camp. they sure can shoot...We never really embraced the bow. After all, who needs such primitive instruments when you can craft the fabric of the world to fire missiles for you?"
But the valuation they have on the blood elves is very positive
Silgryn: "These blood elves are battle-hardened and disciplined. Their strength will be most useful."

Victoire: "These blood elves have some formidable magic. Let us hope it is enough to counter the might of the Nightwell."

Elisalde has nothing bad to say about the blood elves really just that they do not support their decision.

Even Lothrius is interested in visiting quel'thalas after chatting with the blood elves mages.

Is noted in the words of rommath and lady liadrin the desire to help the nightborne, blood elves think of the nightborne as their relatives members of their kind.
Aethas has a nightborne apprentice
Personally I want to believe that one day all the elves will be together and see each other as brothers as it happens with the illidari

all of that is correct, I remember quoting those very lines myself, and seeing others on this forum do the same. And yes it is true that magic was used in both occasions in victory against the legion, but in both occasions it was Malfurion's efforts, non-arcane methods that resulted in the victory, the kaldorei prevailed without magic - now this would be astounding to the Shal'dorei (and all night elves of the pre-sundering era who thought magic was everything and could do anything and far above everything - yet, their magics were defeated and couldn't stand against the legion, it took for all their wonder it failed, the Shal'dorei (night elves of Suramar employed very powerful means that protected them, from a battle they felt that even the new power couldn't help them win, but Malfurion achieved the impossible without all that wonder, and this is what I feel helps keep the Kaldorei at that time a lot more open minded about going all green - cos remember magic was there whole world, how would they survive without it? and yet without employing the arcane, other ways had been found by Malfurion to achieve the impossible, learning of this would astonish the shal'dorei (who've been in a bubble) and who greatly respect their Kaldorei roots, remember to them, they are still the Kaldorei, the Shal'dorei are the continuation of the Kaldorei empire, the arcane civilization, to them, they've become even more elevated Shal'dorei might not be kaldorei but it is more like Kaldorei amplified.. but arcane kaldorei, not the nature kaldorei we have come to know. Yet magic is wonderful and does amazing things, it built Suramar and the night elven civilization and afforded them lots of benefits and amazing things, strong capability, but the Kaldorei of the sundering show that it is not the be all and end all, and I think the shal'dorei won't dismiss the nature orientated ways or the priesthood ways like the Blood elves have done, and would add them back to their way of life or at least greatly respect them as necessary and valuable..

Because these methods while misisng the marvel of the arcane have shown to have kept the Kaldorei in impeccable moral conduct (priesthood) and have afforded them a richness and healthy balance to natural life (druidic) that perhaps is the most needed element to make the Shal'dorei strong. It's clear not just the arcane, but their people who did well with nature and the priesthood together would truly be remarkable with them incorporating their arcane heritage and birthright, as the shal'dorei would benefit from the failsafe and value in the elements of the kaldorei over the last 10k years

notice how much meaner and dismissive Silgryn and Victoire could have been, the tone is far more respectful over something they have no respect for and look down upon, something you can imagine Rommath would not have failed to comment on disparagingly if it was he in their place, nor most blood elves. yet there is no disdain or dis-respect in what they say about it, which is as well an indication of enormous respect but not agreeing with the no magic approach, fora nightborne. If you add that to the Thaedris Feathersong, and Valtrois, Ly'leth and Thalyssra's comments regarding the kaldorei and the ancestors, you get the feeling they are far more respectful and proud of their Kaldorei heritage and ancestory than the blood/high elves have ever been shown to be. The blood/high elves are only proud of the highborne facet of their past, but disdain all things kaldorei including the nocturnal haibt (hence why they changed) and this is because of the enmity from the exile.

The shal'dorei are magic using night elves, magic has been their life, and they were well out of balance in it and have been brought back into balance thanks to the night elven druids, but they 100% believe in magic, which still ahs its uses, and there is no reason why they should feel that civilization has to end. The night elves made that choice because the continued use of magic meant drawing the legion in, and there was much distrust over it.

It would be lovely to see the hsla'dorei make it one of their priorities to convince all the kaldorei to fully embrace their birthright and help their kin get over the distrust that highborne mis-management scarred them with. It would be very nice to see at least one elven group actually venerate and pursue the night elves for good.

And yes, the blood elves do help the nightborne, Liadrin in particular is touched by their plight and works to aid them. but Rommath and Tae'thelan have shown only contempt and have displayed no warmth to the nightborne, but they are there at least, Rommath is helping, Tae'thelan is stealing stuff. Tyrande shows little warmth as well, but she does appear to warm up a bit just like in WC3 where she is initially quite cold then warms up later and you have a host of other night elves that show enough warmth to the nightborne, in particualr Farodin and Lothrius. Aethas is keen over his apprentice, ot necessarily her people, I elieve he would do right by whoeve rhe apprentices, night elf or nightborne, but throught the nightborne he can gain night elven arcane secrets only the nightobrne have preserved and access tot heir greater spells they have perfected and advanced over the millennia through is apprentice. he is doing it for the Tirisgarde ofc, and it shows blood elves can work with nightborne.. I would rather a blood elf mage work with a nightborne than a human/forsaken or any other races save a night elf mage which would have been perfect, seeing the night elf mages are highborne, even the new ones - (the Nelves the highborne teach actually join them ie.e they become highborne)

Neither the broken isle night elves nor the nightborne have any beef with the blood elves, and it would be nice if that played a factor in blood elf realtions with Suramar. The broken isles night elves are more highborne centric/comfortable (i say that for the benefit of Val'sharah ones) because the Suramar and Azsuna ones are all magic users.

[Rhlor]

Eloquently put, I'd just add some things here and there to ensure the emphasis isn't unduly put. The burning legion addition is added because this is defining reason the cessation or complete cessation of arcane magic on pain of death at first then exile later. Such a strict penalty would never have been imposed if it were merely just for philosophical or ideological reasons leading to a re-ordering into a better society. The Kaldorei could have rebuilt all their devastating losses, but the use of the arcane Well of power was badly managed in the end, and the use led to the legion's return. As all the survivors were the ones who fought the Queen, responsibly using magic would not have been an issue requiring complete and enforced abstention. It could have become the preferred lifestyle choice, especially amongst druids, but wouldn't have dominated so.

The complete abstention was entirely to prevent the return of the burning legion, while the other reasons are true, magic presented issues they had now decided they could exist without its benefits, it would not have been insurmountable ones. We see Farodin advocating balance, not abstention. So we can only conclude Malfurion's stance was principally because arcane usage would bring back the burning legion, and that would mean almost certain death for the world, so they cut it out, and imposed a penalty of death (later exile) which is no easy thing for an Elf.


For the second bit, it really is moon and star motifs, because the high elves retained a deep reverence for nature, remember their difference was that the arcane could play a positive and necessary role too in elven society, it wasn't the abstention of nature, WC2 shows very nature reverent high elves, and the blood elf starting area shows a measure of that persists amongst hte blood elves too, certainly in the farstriders. Starlight is also a key part, so moon and stars. The stars guide you, Stars bless you are very common sayings amongst kaldorei and shal'dorei and highborne - all the night elf connected races. And you missed out the biggest one of all, change from nocturnal to diurnal and the rejection of Elune. Elune was switched to the light, and the arcane lost its moonlight/starlight emphasis you see in the nightborne, turning to a fire/sun based thing.

Farodin is not part of Damasian society, He is independent.


I remember this Tae'thelan quest in azsuna

Echoes of My Ancestors
Description[edit]
This land holds many secrets and many artifacts of ancient times.

From what I've been able to discern there's an artifact of great power close to here. I just need to narrow down its location.

I'd like you to dig up more artifacts and learn what you can. When you feel you've done enough research, come back to me and share your knowledge.

[Wildmoon]

I think the key part of the "belief" angle is the notion that Malfurion and Tyrande thought there were no ways that the Arcane could be practiced that wouldn't re-attract the attention of the Legion - they were strongly against even responsible practice of the Arcane, feeling that zero Arcane magic was the only acceptable policy in their new model of society. The Highborne practitioners of the Arcane obviously disagreed, and eventually the conflict of ideologies became so severe that the Highborne magisters opted to go for a grand gesture to prove their might and ended up being exiled from Kalimdor (Malfurion actually argued the judgment down as the traditional punishment for practicing Arcane magic in the post-war Kaldorei society was death).

They knew the possibility was there. They just wouldn't bet on it. Malfurion accepted the Shrendalar highborne back in and even offered them freedom to practice arcane magic freely but not immedietly. With the memories fresh in people's minds, what they needed was time. Dathremar and his followers should have gradually convinced the people over time if they really wanted to live with the night elves. The fact is they welcomed the exile. They had no patience and want absolute freedom without regard to the mass's feelings. The same thing happened in Wolfheart. Malfurion said to the highborne that they could't just expect people to accept 100% freedom of arcane practice suddenly. He promised them that the time would come but they needed to be patient. The highborne expectedly caused a ruckus anyway.

[Combatbutler]

They knew the possibility was there. They just wouldn't bet on it. Malfurion accepted the highborne back in and even offered them freedom to practice arcane magic freely but not immedietly. With the memories fresh in people's minds, what they needed was time. Dathremar and his followers should have gradually convinced the people over time if they really wanted to live with the night elves. The fact is they welcomed the exile. They had no patience and want absolute freedom without regard to the mass's feelings. The same thing happened in Wolfheart. Malfurion said to the highborne that they could't just expect people to accept 100% freedom of arcane practice suddenly. He promised them that the time would come but they needed to be patient. The highborne expectedly caused a ruckus anyway.

That is not entirely true either Dath'remar and the highborne were part of night elven society for almost 3.000 years. Trying to convince their leadership to lessen the ban, which simply did not happen and after several thousand years they lost patience and got exiled.

[Wildmoon]

That is not entirely true either Dath'remar and the highborne were part of night elven society for almost 3.000 years. Trying to convince their leadership to lessen the ban, which simply did not happen and after several thousand years they lost patience and got exiled.

3000 years is long but not really that long relative how night elves age. He understandably lost patience but he did not want to stay with them anyway at that point. Seeing how the highborne generally behave themselves I would bet that their methods of trying to convince the mass would come out and arrogant and brash with the saying which likely went along the line of it's their birthright,they are entitled to it,you plebs are cowards,etc unlike the diplomatic and understanding way which unexpectedly came from the Shrendalar.

[Combatbutler]

3000 years is long but not really that long relative how night elves age. He understandably lost patience but he did not want to stay with them anyway at that point.

Just pointing out that they indeed had patience, they tried to convince the other night elves over a timespan that was nearly as long as the very existence of their bygone empire and understandably lost patience, though they shouldn't have created that storm, instead just pack up their things and leave without a word, meaning they could have still enjoyed the boon of the world tree on the other side of the world.

unlike the diplomatic and understanding way which unexpectedly came from the Shrendalar.

I wouldn't call this more diplomatic, he basically said we don't really care what the night elves think though it would be fine if we could come back.

I suppose I should not be surprised at this cold reception. We have long been in our hiding, and the separation from our brethren was necessary.

That time, however, is done. Whether the residents of this young tree come to accept us or not, the Highborne are returning to light, and we will not turn our backs on what we are.

[micwini]

Kal'dorei = Night elves
Quel'dorei = High elves
Sin'dorei = Blood elves
Shal'dorei = Nightborne

/thread?

[ravenmoon]

I think the key part of the "belief" angle is the notion that Malfurion and Tyrande thought there were no ways that the Arcane could be practiced that wouldn't re-attract the attention of the Legion - they were strongly against even responsible practice of the Arcane, feeling that zero Arcane magic was the only acceptable policy in their new model of society. The Highborne practitioners of the Arcane obviously disagreed, and eventually the conflict of ideologies became so severe that the Highborne magisters opted to go for a grand gesture to prove their might and ended up being exiled from Kalimdor (Malfurion actually argued the judgment down as the traditional punishment for practicing Arcane magic in the post-war Kaldorei society was death).

The High Elves proved Malfurion and the Kaldorei wrong, however; by creating complex wards culminating in the great Runestones to hide both their magic and their source of power from the eyes of the demons. I can only wonder what the newer Kaldorei might've been able to achieve if Arcane and Druidic power could've co-existed peaceably in a new society. Hybrid feats of both arts like the arcan'dor seem like marvels.

also quite well put as well, the high elves definteiliy porved Malfurion and the kaldorei were ultimately wrong, and that Dath'remar was right, the beauty about this story is that though wrong, actually many of us agreed Malfurion did the wise thing, or mad eht right call albeit wrong about it. or at least we sympathise. he shoudl have been more gutsy, the guy is phenomenal, hhas saved the world twice from the legion and twice from teh nightmare as well as other threats and is seldom wrong, but he was wrong about this and wrong about Illidan too. It shows a vulnearable side to him, and in a way thtat odens't take away from his wisdom, cos any of us evne the iwsest amongst us could have made the same call.

Oh, one small things, it's Malfurion and Cenarius, not Malfurion and Tyrande, we don't know how tyrande felt, but we keep getting hints she is generally more accepting of the magic users and more comfortable with them. She is the one that leads them to pay their debt to Kael'thas and his highborne kin for their aid in the war of the ancients, she releases Illidan and tells her husband to trust the Illidari in 7.1. She seems vexed with the shal'dorei, but it doesn't seem to be over magic, but more because they decided to abandon the initial fight at a crucial moment, when the nightwell and their power could have helped win the day..however she does witness them put their life on the line..remember the line she remarks that the Shal'dorei insist on playing a role - the wordingg suggests a tone of pride in that like an "omg at last, well done" and it comes after the WQ where she remarks the more of the shal'dorei that pick up arms the less of my people have to die liberating Suramar. - she seems keen to have her former people show their quality and worth by doing what they failed to do the last time. And they definitely deliver on that. The only anti-magic sentiment seems to come by her insistence that the Nightwell must be destroyed. You can interpret that as anti-magic, but it isn't necessarily so, she could merely be pointing out the obivus, it's dangerous, i'ts out of control and with the legion around, GET RID OF IT. And she'd be delighted that Thalyssra obliges later on. The Shal'dorei must move on from the night well.

Malfurion confirms in Wolfheart that he and Tyrande agree with the Highborne requests and will need a little time to convince the rest of the night elven council, considering the use of arcane magic is no longer a world ending threat, it's not surprising to see Malfuiron on the side of hte highborne, which indicates to us that he was never highborne hating nor magic hating, the choice was made for the good of his people given how things had gone and given what was at stake.

Yes one of the sentinels is emotional about the highborne return, and Maiev is outright hostile, but it is shown that is the exception rather than the general rule. Lady Tyrande is strict but fair, not necesarily anti-magic doing things.. just really going in the righ tdireciton and doing what's right whether it's banning mgic or lifting the ban, Tyrande always does the right thing in the end

[Wildmoon]

Just pointing out that they indeed had patience, they tried to convince the other night elves over a timespan that was nearly as long as the very existence of their bygone empire and understandably lost patience, though they shouldn't have created that storm, instead just pack up their things and leave without a word, meaning they could have still enjoyed the boon of the world tree on the other side of the world.



I wouldn't call this more diplomatic, he basically said we don't really care what the night elves think though it would be fine if we could come back.

Mordent was really diplomatic in Wolfheart. He stood his ground that they would not lose their identities but he was willinng to be patient. That line you quoted just states the obvious. They are not going back whether the were accepted or not.

And we are also talking here like Malfurion has no clue about arcane magic and how it works. He was almost as good as Illidan at the art before he turned to Druidism. It was his arcane magic that unraveled the highborne's spellworks unlocking the well back to the night elves. He knows how it works. He just wouldn't bet on people wielding it.

[Combatbutler]

Mordent was really diplomatic in Wolfheart. He stood his ground that they would not lose their identities but he was willinng to be patient. That line you quoted just states the obvious. They are not going back whether the were accepted or not.

That line was from before their return, meaning they would have come out of the shadows regardless of what the night elves would think, Mordent was patient for what 3 years? Prior to that they had tremendous power at their fingertips, due to Immol'thar. Not to mention the shen'dralar had never attempted coexistence with the night elves before, they sat in their city practiced magic for 10.000 years and didn't care until their power source was gone and their society lay nigh in ruins.

They were simply lucky Malfurion and Tyrande were no longer so opposed to arcane magic.

He just wouldn't bet on people wielding it.

I am aware, which is a rather foolish notion, for the mere fact that any kind of power can be utterly abused. Which his fellow druids proved throughout their existence, making the emerald nightmare possible for example.

[Wildmoon]

That line was from before their return, meaning they would have come out of the shadows regardless of what the night elves would think, Mordent was patient for what 3 years? Prior to that they had tremendous power at their fingertips, due to Immol'thar. Not to mention the shen'dralar had never attempted coexistence with the night elves before, they sat in their city practiced magic for 10.000 years and didn't care until their power source was gone and their society lay nigh in ruins.

They were simply lucky Malfurion and Tyrande were no longer so opposed to arcane magic.

It's about the impression you leave. They did not come claiming their birthright. Dathremar and his followers had always thought that the mass were cowards and they were entitled to do what they wanted.

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I am aware, which is a rather foolish notion, for the mere fact that any kind of power can be utterly abused.

It's about perception. The highborne had a really bad image after the war. Yes, they helped fight the legion but they would not even lift a finger if the world itself was not threatened. They would just enjoyed their lives normaly looking down on the mass. Not the most trustworthy people to bet on.

[Combatbutler]

It's about the impression you leave. They did not come claiming their birthright. Dathremar and his followers had always thought that the mass were cowards and they were entitled to do what they wanted.

According to chronicle they tried to integrate, but at one point simply gave up, disregarded the law and rebelled. We are talking about a very long timespan here, at the time the elves were still rather young and still they tried to get along with society for at least half their lives.

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It's about perception. The highborne had a really bad image after the war. Yes, they helped fight the legion but they would not even lift a finger if the world itself was not threatened. They would just enjoyed their lives normaly looking down on the mass. Not the most trustworthy people to bet on.

You mean like some druids, who slept through many commotions, meddled with and incredibly dangerous worgen form that could have spelled ruin, then planted world trees all over the world, and as a consequence allowed yogg access to the emerald dream, setting events in motion that threatened the entire world. Or in their arrogance assumed immortality was their right and planted yet another one etc.?

Arrogance is part of any group they merely assumed arcane to be worse than others and ultimately were wrong.

[Wildmoon]

You mean like some druids, who slept through many commotions, meddled with and incredibly dangerous worgen form that could have spelled ruin, then planted world trees all over the world, and as a consequence allowed yogg access to the emerald dream, setting events in motion that threatened the entire world. Or in their arrogance assumed immortality was their right and planted yet another one etc.?

You completely missed the point. The point was the perception of the highborne after the war. How the mass percieved them. Not the amount of times they fuked up vs the druids. About your point, most of the times the druids fuked up, they mostly solved their own problems or be the ones leading the charge. WotA completely destroyed the image of the highborne as someone who could use their power responsibly.

[Mehrunes]

Ah, the topic of Night Elvenness of Nightborne is still alive, it seems.

I think Kaldorei is both a race and a culture. The night elves refer to themsleves as kaldorei, night elf is the tag the humans gave them ( you would never originally call yourself a day human now would you?!) . We as players just associate them with one type of race because that's how character creation puts it. you can play night elf - and you get that model.

BUt, in lore, it's not that simple, night elf for starters is just simply a night based elf - why did the humans call them night elves? cos theoy already had elves they were familiar with, and these ones were night based. By extension, your average human would call all night based elves, night elves, only the more educated would split them up into their own sub-groups. Kaldorei, Quel'dorei, Shal'dorei.

The first person to call Night Elves Night Elves in Warcraft was Cenarius.