Inequality in America is getting worse according to top economists

[jakeic]

But if you had great SKILLS it wouldnt matter your height, right?

If you look at the list of top 25 greatest NBA players from FOX sports, not a single one is under 6 feet tall. In the top 10, the shortest guy is 6'6", while 7 of them are 7' tall.

I couldn't find a list for this season, but a list of 2013-2014 season had the NBA with 14 guys under 6' tall, of which, half were over 5'11". That is 14 out of 450 players. It would seem like one of the most important factors to being in the NBA is being about 6' tall.

[petej0]

I suspect even eventually trade skills will be replaced as well but yes that may be later down the line. In any event skills upgrades are no sufficient. Even without automation their are quite simple too many people and too little work available. You could all go and be stem grads and it would be the same thing. The fact that work can be "made" wont last forever and is incredible harmful in general. David Graber calls them "bullshit jobs". He wrote a really good essay about it in strike magazine but can't find it anymore. annoying.

I agree at some point automation will replace most if not all jobs.

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If you look at the list of top 25 greatest NBA players from FOX sports, not a single one is under 6 feet tall. In the top 10, the shortest guy is 6'6", while 7 of them are 7' tall.

I couldn't find a list for this season, but a list of 2013-2014 season had the NBA with 14 guys under 6' tall, of which, half were over 5'11". That is 14 out of 450 players. It would seem like one of the most important factors to being in the NBA is being about 6' tall.

You are totally missing my point.

[Glorious Leader]

I agree at some point automation will replace most if not all jobs.

Then it's really just "buying" time at this point. Why continue the misery and suffering that forces people into jobs they hate or to indenture themselves to get educations for jobs that won't be around anyway?

[jakeic]

Exactly. You cant just walk up and expect to make a team. Training is involved. Same goes for the labor market. I cant just walk into a law firm and expect to first chair a multi-million dollar law suit. I have to train for that. I cant just walk into the license board for my state and get my Plumbing license, i have to train for it. The amount of training involved in most cases dictates your compensation. The harder the training the less people who have that skill and the more compensation you receive.

If you can train on a cash register in a few hours, that isnt that hard, thus your compensation will not be that great either.

Yes, but your ability to train is being more fortunate than someone who hasn't had the ability to train. Telling people that they are lazy because they didn't live your life, or aren't living how you would want them to live, doesn't help people who work jobs that are required (we know they are required otherwise the job would not exist), but don't make enough to live on.

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You are totally missing my point.

That some people are just lucky?

[petej0]

Then it's really just "buying" time at this point. Why continue the misery and suffering that forces people into jobs they hate or to indenture themselves to get educations for jobs that won't be around anyway?

Well, thats a bit hyperbolic.

[Gestopft]

I feel like it's a common misconception. People often equate income inequality to people being worse off than they were in the past. This is not the case. The average American is far better off and has a much higher quality of life than the average American from 20 years ago.

Most of this is due to advances in technology and globalization. Maybe we should compare the quality of life of our poor people to those in other developed nations. Our economy at large is failing people. As far as income inequality, just look up the data. During the great post-war boom, the top 1% took in about 10% of the income. This has more than doubled since then, and it is harming our economic growth.

Really? If it's the case that cost of living is surpassing the incomes of the lower and middle class shouldn't we see an increase in deaths by starvation, lack of shelter, and lack of access to life saving medicine?

Last I checked just the opposite has happened in the last 30 years.

I didn't say "surpassing," I said "not going up as fast as." However, in the last 30 years we've gone from about 30% of households receiving some public assistance to almost 50%. It's because wage growth has been poor for decades. In the late 60's, a full-time minimum wage job was enough to keep a family of three over the federal poverty line- now it's hardly enough for an individual. Instead of starving and dying, employees are relying on public assistance. There are also other things like housing costs, healthcare costs, and college tuition that are rising well past wages and also squeezing the middle class.

[Glorious Leader]

Well, thats a bit hyperbolic.

Which part? People working miserable jobs or getting indentured to get educations?

[petej0]

Yes, but your ability to train is being more fortunate than someone who hasn't had the ability to train. Telling people that they are lazy because they didn't live your life, or aren't living how you would want them to live, doesn't help people who work jobs that are required (we know they are required otherwise the job would not exist), but don't make enough to live on.

Yes, there are those who have learning disabilities and what not. I refuse to believe EVERY PERSON WORKING MINIMUM WAGE can not learn another skill to better their position. Sorry, I just cant believe that these people are destined to not be able to learn anything.

[Vash The Stampede]

Really?... REALLY!?

No, money is not finite. At least not in the sense that there's only X amount of product which can be produced. If money was a finite resource then farmers would still be using oxen to till their fields and we would all still be farmers. Money is merely a representation of the value and quantity of a product. The more product created and the higher quality a product, the more money exists.

If the rich are getting richer, then there's less money for everyone else. The government can devalue it or increase its value by putting more or less money into circulation. But ultimately money is finite. Money needs to circulate in order for the population to be happy. The problem is the rich are holding onto their money for far too long. Taxing the wealthy has usually been the method to circulate this money, but the rich have gotten smart and now change laws in their favor.

Ultimately we need to tax the rich more so than before, to support more social programs.

Automation does more than simple do away with old shitty jobs, it replaces the number of workers that were previously required to do that job usually to zero but really any efficiency involves less jobs. Very simple why would anyone in their right fucking mind invest the capital required into automation if it meant they would have to hire the same amount of people anyway, albeit it at some "upgraded" level? THEY WOULDN'T. That's the fucking point. People arguing that workers can get upgraded skills miss the point of automation. EFFECIENCY THROUGH REDUCED LABOR COST.

INDIVIDUALS CANNOT FIX THIS PROBLEM . This is a MACRO problem not an MICRO one. Arguing that people can upgrade their skills misses the fucking point entirely. PEOPLE WILL GET LEFT BEHIND. Lots of them. And unless theirs a plan it's gonna be alot of misery and suffering.

This is what many people don't understand. Why make it more complicated and require to hire employee's with better pay? Automation is just a method of optimization. Uber or Taxi's could very well in the near future be replaced by self driving cars. Lots of jobs could go if this happens. You won't hire those drivers as mechanics or something else. Those jobs are gone. If the cars are eletric, then the mechanics jobs are gone too.

The ultimate solution is Basic Income. Which is a great solution as people won't be stressed to choose any job available like McDonald's. Nobody wants to work at fast food joints, or as a cashier, or as a loader or unloader. Certainly don't wanna do it all day, everyday. With Basic Income, jobs would have to compete against that. Because if there's more unemployed people, then companies will pay less cause they know there's more people needing work. This is why Trump is president and why Brexit is sorta happening. Too many people competing for too few jobs.

[petej0]

Which part? People working miserable jobs or getting indentured to get educations?

Everything.

[jakeic]

Yes, there are those who have learning disabilities and what not. I refuse to believe EVERY PERSON WORKING MINIMUM WAGE can not learn another skill to better their position. Sorry, I just cant believe that these people are destined to not be able to learn anything.

What happens when everyone who is working a minimum wage job learns another skill and gets a better position?

I'm also confused as to why minimum wage needs to be derogatory, I'm not saying you're using it to cast offense onto someone, isn't just holding a job supposed to be a virtue?

[petej0]

If the rich are getting richer, then there's less money for everyone else. The government can devalue it or increase its value by putting more or less money into circulation. But ultimately money is finite. Money needs to circulate in order for the population to be happy. The problem is the rich are holding onto their money for far too long. Taxing the wealthy has usually been the method to circulate this money, but the rich have gotten smart and now change laws in their favor.

You do know about Fractional Lending right? You do know millions of dollars can change hands without actual currency being printed or exchanged right? The rich dont hold into their money. Why? Because it would lose value due to inflation. They spend their money and invest it, which makes them more money. Hence they get wealthier.

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what happens when everyone who is working a minimum wage job learns another skill and gets a better position?

They get paid more, but dont pretend it will all happen at the same time.

[jakeic]

They get paid more.

I may have phrased that wrong, how can everyone who is working a minimum wage job move into a better position? If all these jobs just existed, why are they not currently being filled? If the job market works on supply and demand, and there is demand for laborers who are more "skillful" than minimum wage workers, then why aren't minimum wage workers moving up the ladder?

[Lenonis]

So why didn't he do it when he had full control of all 3 branches his first 2 years?

Because he didn't have full control of all 3 branches for 2 years, for starters.

EDIT -- unless, of course, you want to say that Trump has full control of all 3 branches right now. Which the dems in the Senate would likely disagree with you.

[Vash The Stampede]

Yes, there are those who have learning disabilities and what not. I refuse to believe EVERY PERSON WORKING MINIMUM WAGE can not learn another skill to better their position. Sorry, I just cant believe that these people are destined to not be able to learn anything.

Those people might not have the free time. NY had the right idea that if you work you get free college. I'm guessing that includes part time jobs. But those who work 40 hours a week or more are not going to have the free time to learn. You come home tired and don't want to do shit. Why you think Europeans look at US and wonder how Americans live? Work all day to come home just enough to drink a bear and sleep. And in Murica, 40 hours isn't 40, it's 45. You get a "lunch hour", which the employer just hopes you're willing to work and eat.

People do amazing things with free time, and that's when they usually learn new skills.

[Gestopft]

People needed for those jobs is not the same as somebody has to take that position. Shitty jobs can exist all they want. More shitty jobs does not mean that there are less better jobs. Doesn't work that way.

We don't need McDonald's, Burger King, Taco Bell, or any fast food place. Those jobs are not needed by society. They are optional and exist because people want the luxury of "fast food".

Holy deflection, Batman.

A diversified market economy is based on people purchasing things that they don't "need." I use "need" in the sense that if a company wants to meet consumer demand and make a profit, they need those employees. As long as the company is hiring people to meet those needs, those shitty jobs will continue to exist, and the "just get a better job" approach fails to provide a solution. Everybody can't just "get a better job." If they could, then those shitty jobs would go unfilled, and companies would have to un-shittify the jobs to attract employees.

No, money is not finite. At least not in the sense that there's only X amount of product which can be produced. If money was a finite resource then farmers would still be using oxen to till their fields and we would all still be farmers. Money is merely a representation of the value and quantity of a product. The more product created and the higher quality a product, the more money exists.

Money is finite in the sense that you can add up all the assets in the world and reach an actual finite number. At any given time there will be a finite amount of wealth in the world, but yes, we are always creating new wealth.

It makes more sense to call money "finite" than "infinite."

[Glorious Leader]

If the rich are getting richer, then there's less money for everyone else. The government can devalue it or increase its value by putting more or less money into circulation. But ultimately money is finite. Money needs to circulate in order for the population to be happy. The problem is the rich are holding onto their money for far too long. Taxing the wealthy has usually been the method to circulate this money, but the rich have gotten smart and now change laws in their favor.

Ultimately we need to tax the rich more so than before, to support more social programs.

This is what many people don't understand. Why make it more complicated and require to hire employee's with better pay? Automation is just a method of optimization. Uber or Taxi's could very well in the near future be replaced by self driving cars. Lots of jobs could go if this happens. You won't hire those drivers as mechanics or something else. Those jobs are gone. If the cars are eletric, then the mechanics jobs are gone too.

The ultimate solution is Basic Income. Which is a great solution as people won't be stressed to choose any job available like McDonald's. Nobody wants to work at fast food joints, or as a cashier, or as a loader or unloader. Certainly don't wanna do it all day, everyday. With Basic Income, jobs would have to compete against that. Because if there's more unemployed people, then companies will pay less cause they know there's more people needing work. This is why Trump is president and why Brexit is sorta happening. Too many people competing for too few jobs.

And the fact that people have to work less for survival is actually a really good thing. It should free men to pursue their own dreams and goals. If yyou told your ancestors from even 100 years ago about all the wonders and innovations they would think that you would all live as kings. Instead people live in misery and squalor and the only reason is that the gains from these developments have been spread out so inequitable that it leaves a few with multitudes while multitudes have few.

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Everything.

Yea they aren't anything hyperbolic about either unfortunately.

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You do know about Fractional Lending right? You do know millions of dollars can change hands without actual currency being printed or exchanged right? The rich dont hold into their money. Why? Because it would lose value due to inflation. They spend their money and invest it, which makes them more money. Hence they get wealthier.

No what they do is buy assets specifically stocks but also real estate. Those markets are indeed grossly inflated and they make tonnes of money on them. The money hasn't lost value, at least not the USD because for all the talk of inflation PEOPLE STILL BUY US BONDS LIKE THEY"RE GOING OUT OF STYLE. The only thing inflated is the stock market. The economy itself has been in a gross debt deflation since the recession.

[Gestopft]

What happens when everyone who is working a minimum wage job learns another skill and gets a better position?

I'm also confused as to why minimum wage needs to be derogatory, I'm not saying you're using it to cast offense onto someone, isn't just holding a job supposed to be a virtue?

Holding a low-skill industrial job that you can get right out of high school is a virtue. Holding a low-skill service sector job means that you deserve to be poor. I think that's how it's supposed to work?

Back when the manufacturing sector was stronger, you could get a low-skill job right out of high school working in a factory, and you could raise a family on it. Today, most of the low-skill jobs available are in the service sector, and not only is it harder to get by on them, you have people arguing that you shouldn't be able to get by on them because they "aren't supposed to be careers," or "they're jobs for high-school students," and other vitriol at people who happen to be working in that sector because those are the available jobs.

[Jerot]

Yes, there are those who have learning disabilities and what not. I refuse to believe EVERY PERSON WORKING MINIMUM WAGE can not learn another skill to better their position. Sorry, I just cant believe that these people are destined to not be able to learn anything.

A job is a job, if you are doing a service that is required, putting in your 8-10 hours a day. Why shouldnt you be entitled to making a living? What happens when someone gets a new job that pays more, the old job doesnt go away, someone has to fill it. So it becomes the new persons problem? Okay, then what happens when all those "better" jobs are filled and all we have is minimum wage to choose from. And then even those jobs become highly contested. Everyone is just supposed to work two jobs to get by while hunting for a "better position" and learning new skills?

Do you really think people only work minimum wage jobs because they dont have the skills to apply elsewhere? Some people have to take whats available just to survive.

[kamuimac]

The ultimate solution is Basic Income. Which is a great solution as people won't be stressed to choose any job available like McDonald's. Nobody wants to work at fast food joints, or as a cashier, or as a loader or unloader. Certainly don't wanna do it all day, everyday. With Basic Income, jobs would have to compete against that. Because if there's more unemployed people, then companies will pay less cause they know there's more people needing work. This is why Trump is president and why Brexit is sorta happening. Too many people competing for too few jobs.

there is obvious flaw in the design of basic income - in order to put taxes on companies and automatization you need someone to buy prodcts of those companies - people with basic income wont buy jack shit so the most obvious question is who will buy their products ? the working people ? so emploees of the company will buy products they produce in order to feed lazy scums leaving of basic income ?

whole concept ifs seriously fucked up . and wont happen for decadeds untill robots will be able to replace all jobs.

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A job is a job, .

there is fatal flaw in this reasoning - random idiots selling sandwiches in mcdonalds will bring company maybe double his salary profit - a really good specialis will bring in company 20x profit of his salary that is already 10x bigger then salary of dude selling sandwiches

example of small company - production workers prodeced a products that if sold will bring in 10k pure profit to owner (after deduction of all the costs, marketing, salaries etc etc) - good manager negociated 5 % discount on mateirals that were used in proces of production and brought in extra 10k of profit - thing is those workers worked hard whole month - that manager negociated hard for 1-2 hours - and brought in the same pure profit - how can you claim the jobs they do are equal - you simply cannot.

you cant equalize that every job shoudl be considered the same.

Do you really think people only work minimum wage jobs because they dont have the skills to apply elsewhere? Some people have to take whats available just to survive.

ofc - if they had such skilsl they would change that job on spot. most peopel are simply incompetent morons and thats their own problem.

good employees dont have any trouble finding work - most of time the moment they quit their position there is couple other companies trying to recruit them on spot.