Anyone play around with Shoulders+Bracers?

[gaaara]

Pretty close sims



905-906 ilvl~

I think next patch with the changes to demon blade/ring change, the ring should drop a lot down in the list.

[Extremity]

What do you mean? Do you mean shoulders+bracers with Meta being at 2 minutes? If so, does that include CoF or are you at 2-minute meta without that?

[gaaara]

Na, i don't use COF, this is just legendary slots being swapped around to get see how the dps is affected.

I have a relic that pretty much lines up chaos blade/nemesis with meta

[Synthium]

Shoulders are extremely situational, if you can glue yourself to the boss it's awesome. If you can't (read: most fights), you're better off still using the belt. Unless it's on the fight where you only have to go away from the boss for a very short periods of time (like on Aluriel if you get the fire mark). Also, as gear goes up it will be less and less useful cause there is going to be less chance the fight is going to last for more than 2 minutes. On normal and in most cases heroic fights they are useless already, fights are around 1:45.

[Deleted]

@Synthium
Well, no one needs to optimize the shit out of build for normal/heroic anyway


@OP
I run the shoulders + AotHG with 5 traits in the Meta reduction trait (4/4 and 1 relic) without CoF. Simulated I get my meta every 2:10 minutes (this includes BL ofc). Even with some downtime and without BL, I get it reliably every 2:15 minutes. But even this setup only gives me ~10k DPS more than running with a 4 Minute Meta and KJW instead of the shoulders (and with an additional CS relic).

That's why I think without the additional fury from the ring it wouldn't be worth it to use the shoulders, since that would probably put the Meta CD at 2:30 (or even more). And that means either losing one CB-use on a logner fight when delaying it or desynching Meta + CB.

If I had the bracers (only missing leggo for me -.-), I would definetly run them with AotHG.

[Synthium]

@Synthium
Well, no one needs to optimize the shit out of build for normal/heroic anyway


@OP
I run the shoulders + AotHG with 5 traits in the Meta reduction trait (4/4 and 1 relic) without CoF. Simulated I get my meta every 2:10 minutes (this includes BL ofc). Even with some downtime and without BL, I get it reliably every 2:15 minutes. But even this setup only gives me ~10k DPS more than running with a 4 Minute Meta and KJW instead of the shoulders (and with an additional CS relic).

That's why I think without the additional fury from the ring it wouldn't be worth it to use the shoulders, since that would probably put the Meta CD at 2:30 (or even more). And that means either losing one CB-use on a logner fight when delaying it or desynching Meta + CB.

If I had the bracers (only missing leggo for me -.-), I would definetly run them with AotHG.

Well yea that's true, you can pretty much run normals without any talents at all xD

[PowerGamez]

I vary my combinations. I have Shoulders, Bracers, Helm, Ring

Pure Single Target Fight where I will get an extra round of meta synced CDs (Kill time = 4:00-6:00, 8:00-10:00) = Shoulders + AotHG w/ First Blood

Pure Single Target Fight where I wont get an extra round of meta synced CDs (Kill time = 0:00-4:00, 6:00-8:00) = Bracers + AotHG w/ First Blood

Fight where I get to cleave adds for at least more than 25% of the fight = Bracers + AotHG w/ Bloodlet

Demonic Bloodlet Build for Skorpyron w/ Bracers and Helm is great.
I've played around with demonic bloodlet build for Tichondrius but have found I get similar results with just standard demonblades build with bloodlet.

My standard go to build for M+ is Demonic Bloodlet (3333113) w/ Helm and Bracers. It's ridiculously OP.

[Extremity]

[...]
Pure Single Target Fight where I wont get an extra round of meta synced CDs (Kill time = 0:00-4:00, 6:00-8:00) = Bracers + AotHG w/ First Blood
[..]

Why would you use Bracers + First Blood?

[Deleted]

yeah thats pretty bad man

[PowerGamez]

Why would you use Bracers + First Blood?

My understanding was that even with bracers First Blood out performs Bloodlet for pure single target? That's what I get when I sim my character (904 ilvl, 45 traits, 39C,13H,42M). Last time I simmed my toon was at 42 traits though so I might need to resim come to think of it as I now have the extra 5% TG damage trait.

I use bracers over shoulders for the extra 50% throw damage and delay my CB/Nem to line up with meta/procs/lust on <6:30 fights.

If you go through the top 100 parses on WCL there are parses for both talent/legendary variations. A few more leaning towards bloodlet w/ bracers for single target.

I'm currently parsing at 91% average with no belt so pretty happy with my results but definitely looking for ways to improve.

[Extremity]

My understanding was that even with bracers First Blood out performs Bloodlet for pure single target? That's what I get when I sim my character (904 ilvl, 45 traits, 39C,13H,42M). Last time I simmed my toon was at 42 traits though so I might need to resim come to think of it as I now have the extra 5% TG damage trait.

I use bracers over shoulders for the extra 50% throw damage and delay my CB/Nem to line up with meta/procs/lust on <6:30 fights.

If you go through the top 100 parses on WCL there are parses for both talent/legendary variations. A few more leaning towards bloodlet w/ bracers for single target.

I'm currently parsing at 91% average with no belt so pretty happy with my results but definitely looking for ways to improve.

EDIT: I misread and thought you said you ran bracers/shoulders, but it looks like you're saying you use bracers RATHER than using shoulders? If that's the case, ignore everything I say regarding two-minute meta and the extra death sweeps, but everything else I say about the spec I still believe. I would absolutely run shoulders over bracers in a First Blood build, btw, since you can now hit the 2 minute meta mark without CoF. If you *ARE* wearing the shoulders with your bracers, then ignore THIS paragraph, and don't ignore he stuff below about two minute meta Saying "bracers over shoulders" is what Im not sure about, common sense leads me to believe you're saying "instead of" but since the OP is about wearing shoulders and bracers together I'm not 100% sure, additionally because you didn't say what second legendary you'd be wearing instead.

I feel like if bracers and first blood are simming best for you there's something weird with your gear. I'm not an expert at that spec so I'm not claiming to be sure I'm right, but... it's just odd. There are definitely people simming higher with a bloodlet build on ST than a FB build, and people simming higher with a Chaos Cleave build. It's just that on a First Blood build, Throw Glaive is nothing but filler. In a perfect world you would NEVER CAST IT; you only do when you have no Fury for a Chaos Strike and need to fill an otherwise empty global. So, basically, the better your attempt in terms of Fury gen/crits the fewer Throw Glaives you would have. I just can't see it being a significant enough portion of your damage without Bloodlet to warrant using bracers, unless you have NOTHING better.

Do you really have nothing else to use in place of Bracers? What are your alternatives? And you're telling me that if you sim in your bracers/first blood build and then sim again changing nothing but first blood to bloodlet, you'd lose damage? If that's the case it's almost definitely because you're running a 2 minute meta build, allowing more death sweeps; on a fight where a 2 minute meta build was worthless (where the fight was short and didn't allow an extra meat) it might be different. If you went back t a standard Meta CD I feel like Bloodlet would take over. You effectively have twice as many opportunities to use Death Sweep which is giving it a much higher DPS contribution/priority.

Either way, especially in a 2 minute meta First Blood build, there's just no way wearing bracers can be optimal. It just can't be, dude, unless (like I said) you just flat-out have nothing better. You don't have the belt, the trinket? Not even the neck? What are your options?

[Deleted]

@Synthium

That's why I think without the additional fury from the ring it wouldn't be worth it to use the shoulders, since that would probably put the Meta CD at 2:30 (or even more). And that means either losing one CB-use on a logner fight when delaying it or desynching Meta + CB.

Agreed, the only scenario where shoulders sims better than belt/sephuz/Kbw is with AotHG+CoF-> FOR ME, rest of sims its a DPS lost; im simming with 7/7 critical caos because i simmed Unleashed demons without cof and sims really bad VS chaos+cof.
So i think best combi is 7/7 chaos+CoF+shoulder+AotHG, but dont run shoulder without AotHG, even sephuz sims higher.
Thats my opinion, of course, based on sims in a 899 DH.

Dæmonicus-EU Outland

[PowerGamez]

EDIT: I misread and thought you said you ran bracers/shoulders, but it looks like you're saying you use bracers RATHER than using shoulders? If that's the case, ignore everything I say regarding two-minute meta and the extra death sweeps, but everything else I say about the spec I still believe. I would absolutely run shoulders over bracers in a First Blood build, btw, since you can now hit the 2 minute meta mark without CoF. If you *ARE* wearing the shoulders with your bracers, then ignore THIS paragraph, and don't ignore he stuff below about two minute meta Saying "bracers over shoulders" is what Im not sure about, common sense leads me to believe you're saying "instead of" but since the OP is about wearing shoulders and bracers together I'm not 100% sure, additionally because you didn't say what second legendary you'd be wearing instead.

I feel like if bracers and first blood are simming best for you there's something weird with your gear. I'm not an expert at that spec so I'm not claiming to be sure I'm right, but... it's just odd. There are definitely people simming higher with a bloodlet build on ST than a FB build, and people simming higher with a Chaos Cleave build. It's just that on a First Blood build, Throw Glaive is nothing but filler. In a perfect world you would NEVER CAST IT; you only do when you have no Fury for a Chaos Strike and need to fill an otherwise empty global. So, basically, the better your attempt in terms of Fury gen/crits the fewer Throw Glaives you would have. I just can't see it being a significant enough portion of your damage without Bloodlet to warrant using bracers, unless you have NOTHING better.

Do you really have nothing else to use in place of Bracers? What are your alternatives? And you're telling me that if you sim in your bracers/first blood build and then sim again changing nothing but first blood to bloodlet, you'd lose damage? If that's the case it's almost definitely because you're running a 2 minute meta build, allowing more death sweeps; on a fight where a 2 minute meta build was worthless (where the fight was short and didn't allow an extra meat) it might be different. If you went back t a standard Meta CD I feel like Bloodlet would take over. You effectively have twice as many opportunities to use Death Sweep which is giving it a much higher DPS contribution/priority.

Either way, especially in a 2 minute meta First Blood build, there's just no way wearing bracers can be optimal. It just can't be, dude, unless (like I said) you just flat-out have nothing better. You don't have the belt, the trinket? Not even the neck? What are your options?

Bracers with the shoulders - Haha no I'm not that silly.

The combinations I will be using in the future are:

Bracer/Ring - Standard Build w/ Bloodlet
Shoulder/Ring - Standard Build w/ First blood IF I will get an extra meta
Bracer/Helm - Demonic Bloodlet build for M+

I reran some sims and the results have fixed themselves up. These were for a 4 minute sim length. 902-903 ilvl DH, 45 traits, relics are: CC, Meta Reduction, Meta Reduction.

Bloodlet w/ Bracer/Ring = 829K
First Blood w/ Bracer/Ring = 815K (1.6% lower dps than bloodlet w/ bracer/ring)
First Blood w/ Shoudlers/Ring = 856K

I do not trust that the result is correct for the shoulders/ring sim though as it varies the fight length between 142s-340s. In an ideal world when I know the fight is going to last 240 seconds I'm going to have the exact same uptime and overlapping of cooldowns whether I use the shoulders or not. If the fight was under 3 mins or 4:30 for sure i'd definitely agree that shoulders/ring combo smashes the other alternatives so that's got to be taken into consideration.

I also noted playing around with trinkets that it's a 7K dps upgrade to swap out my 800 agi/mastery stat stick w/ socket for an 860 Arcanocrystal.

[Lostprophet]

In an ideal world when I know the fight is going to last 240 seconds I'm going to have the exact same uptime and overlapping of cooldowns whether I use the shoulders or not.

I'm not sure if I'm missing something here but in a 240s fight you'd have 2xNemesis 2x CB and 2x Meta up with shoulders. Without, it would be 2xNemesis 2x CB and 1x Meta.

Please enlighten me

I also noted playing around with trinkets that it's a 7K dps upgrade to swap out my 800 agi/mastery stat stick w/ socket for an 860 Arcanocrystal.

My 865 Arcano is better then my 905 Agi/Crit Stat stick..

[Occar]

My understanding was that even with bracers First Blood out performs Bloodlet for pure single target? That's what I get when I sim my character (904 ilvl, 45 traits, 39C,13H,42M). Last time I simmed my toon was at 42 traits though so I might need to resim come to think of it as I now have the extra 5% TG damage trait.

I use bracers over shoulders for the extra 50% throw damage and delay my CB/Nem to line up with meta/procs/lust on <6:30 fights.

If you go through the top 100 parses on WCL there are parses for both talent/legendary variations. A few more leaning towards bloodlet w/ bracers for single target.

I'm currently parsing at 91% average with no belt so pretty happy with my results but definitely looking for ways to improve.

Around this ilevel, if SimC is to be believed, the order is Chaos cleave > first blood anyway. I don't know what t20 will do to that, or if it is accurate, but right now, it seems that chaos cleave is worth investigating for single target chaos blades builds.

We're also at the point where DoG gets you ~130 second metas if you have 1 relic and 4 traits with no CoF, so it is worth looking at now.

[PowerGamez]

I'm not sure if I'm missing something here but in a 240s fight you'd have 2xNemesis 2x CB and 2x Meta up with shoulders. Without, it would be 2xNemesis 2x CB and 1x Meta.

Please enlighten me

Due to RNG on relics I have 2 x Meta Reduction Relics (905 and a 915) bringing the CD down to 3 minutes and 30 seconds.

- - - Updated - - -

Around this ilevel, if SimC is to be believed, the order is Chaos cleave > first blood anyway. I don't know what t20 will do to that, or if it is accurate, but right now, it seems that chaos cleave is worth investigating for single target chaos blades builds.

We're also at the point where DoG gets you ~130 second metas if you have 1 relic and 4 traits with no CoF, so it is worth looking at now.

Yeah, i'm in that situation now. I don't use CoF and get 120-140s metas depending on fury RNG.

[Occar]

Yeah, right now, since I happened to have 1 relic just due to higher ivl, it seems that DoG > belt for me now in most situations.

This is different from before when DoG + CoF was worse than belt+2nd best trinket in all situations.

[Svisalith]

Due to RNG on relics I have 2 x Meta Reduction Relics (905 and a 915) bringing the CD down to 3 minutes and 30 seconds.

You only need one relic for 3:30

two relics is 3:20

unless you don't have the artifact level yet

[PowerGamez]

As stated it's not by choice that I have 2 x Meta Reduction relics - i've had no better alternatives come along.

I don't have the artifact level yet. I'm at 45 traits so next point will be into Eye Beam, then contained fury, then meta reduction and pray I've got a better relic by then.

[Extremity]

I have one Meta Reduction relic, one Critical Chaos, and one Demon Blades damage (which I'm only using because it procced so high, need to change to Critical Chaos). I've also put the extra point into the Meta CD reduction trait via empowering my weapon, so I'm currently at 5/5 points into it.

When taking off my CoF to test on the raiding training dummy, my Meta had ~10 seconds left once Nemesis and Chaos Blades came off cooldown. It's not a ten second difference, however, as you're still reducing the CD during those 10 seconds; it was about a 6, maybe 7 second total overage. That's low enough to justify replacing CoF, absolutely.

My problem is that I've used my 900 CoF for so long that I don't have a great replacement. I have a completely baseline 860 Arcanocrystal (which I know is good but I still hate using just because of item level epeen), an 880 Faulty Countermeasure (garbage), an 875 version of whatever the trinket is from NH that adds damage to your auto attack which increases per hit for its proc duration, and an 880 Bloodthirsty Instinct. I guess I'll be using the Arcano or the BTI along with my Memento until something better drops; really hoping to get a good Foci.