Oregon Man Fined $500 for Criticizing Red-light Cameras

[Allerius]

No I'm not. It matters that he called himself an engineer. The relevant law.

a. He never claimed to be a registered professional engineer
b. The first part would never pass muster in court. Engineer is a generic term that can't reasonably be limited like that.

The board is just pissed off some guy is calling them on their bs and is trying to scare him off by stretching the law. They won't have a chance in court and they are the assholes here.

[Delana]

That sounds like an improvement, especially if they can impose regulations, like they used before Nixon/Reagan got rid of them and helped to lead to the hyperpartisan radicalization of the American populace.

Property being seized (in this case money) is not censorship.

Are you retarded? There are people for whom $500 is the difference between eating and not eating for the month. Nevertheless, the state does not have any authority in this matter. "Congress shall make no law...abridging the freedom of speech." He can tell you he's a pink elephant, a lawyer, an astronaut, or a fucking toucan. There's nothing fraudulent about what he's doing here. He's merely criticizing shitty civil engineering, as is his right as one of The People.

You would have to be a natural born peasant to fail to recognize that this is obvious retaliation from some engineering body that is butthurt about his criticism.

infracted - minor flaming

[Matchles]

a. He never claimed to be a registered professional engineer
b. The first part would never pass muster in court. Engineer is a generic term that can't reasonably be limited like that.

The board is just pissed off some guy is calling them on their bs and is trying to scare him off by stretching the law. They won't have a chance in court and they are the assholes here.

I guess I'll quote it again since you are so hung up on the registered part.

Through the use of some other title implies that the person is an engineer

If you'd read the case you'd see the board doesn't give two shits what he thinks about the cameras. They informed him after his first correspondence that they don't have jurisdiction over how the cameras are run.

[Allerius]

Through the use of some other title implies that the person is an engineer.

I guess you missed the part where ambiguous and generic terms won't stand up for shit in court. The distinction between "registered engineer" and "engineer" is a massive one.

[Delana]

That is because many (I would guess most) jurisdictions don't require a license to practice engineering.

Most engineers have degrees - as this guy; some get hired before getting the degree and can still practice engineering.

./agree

To engineer is simply to design with an eye towards function. Many humans, amateur and professional, do this. It's perfectly natural for them to call themselves engineers.

[Matchles]

I guess you missed the part where ambiguous and generic terms won't stand up for shit in court. The distinction between "registered engineer" and "engineer" is a massive one.

It isn't ambiguous at all, it is clearly defined in ORS 672.002

And you have done absolutely nothing to show it wouldn't hold up in court.

[A dot Ham]

Thought I should share something interesting that I saw.

That's interesting.

California actually stopped using the cameras. There was a lawsuit, essentially because it violates due process and the 6th amendment, confrontation clause. We have tons of cameras that remain inoperable because the state can't use them against anyone... thanks Governor Brown!

[Allerius]

It isn't ambiguous at all, it is clearly defined in ORS 672.002

And you have done absolutely nothing to show it wouldn't hold up in court.

ORS 672.002 says:
"Engineer," "professional engineer" or "registered professional engineer" means an individual who is registered in this state and holds a valid certificate to practice engineering in this state as provided under ORS 672.002 (Definitions for ORS 672.002 to 672.325) to 672.325 (Civil penalties).

"an individual who is registered in the state"
He never claimed that he was registered in the state. He said he was an engineer, which is a generic and ambiguous term you can look up in the dictionary that in no way implies he is registered in the state of Oregon. That's why it wouldn't pass judicial rigor at all and they are basically harassing him with a claim they (should) know is totally bogus.

[satimy]

You are allowed to criticize, you aren't allowed to claim expertise that you don't have. Change "engineer" to "attorney" and tell me you still feel it is unfair to call yourself one while giving testimony.

You can represent yourself if you dont have a law degree, you can practice law

[Matchles]

ORS 672.002 says:
"Engineer," "professional engineer" or "registered professional engineer" means an individual who is registered in this state and holds a valid certificate to practice engineering in this state as provided under ORS 672.002 (Definitions for ORS 672.002 to 672.325) to 672.325 (Civil penalties).

"an individual who is registered in the state"
He never claimed that he was registered in the state. He said he was an engineer, which is a generic and ambiguous term you can look up in the dictionary that in no way implies he is registered in the state of Oregon. That's why it wouldn't pass judicial rigor at all and they are basically harassing him with a claim they (should) know is totally bogus.

I'm having trouble figuring out if you are trolling or just don't know how to read statutes.

"Engineer"... means an individual who is registered in the state and holds a valid certificate to practice engineering in this state.

That means if someone claims to be an engineer they are claiming to be an individual who is registered in the state.

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You can represent yourself if you dont have a law degree, you can practice law

That isn't practicing law, that is being an idiot.

[Phookah]

Whether or not he can call himself an engineer is, once again, not the main thing he got fined for.

It was the "main" thing actually, as you CAN'T fine someone for criticizing something. If he did in fact get fined for having an opinion, I suggest he go to the ACLU cause' they'd have a field day with it.

[Allerius]

I'm having trouble figuring out if you are trolling or just don't know how to read statutes.

"Engineer"... means an individual who is registered in the state and holds a valid certificate to practice engineering in this state.

The means if someone claims to be an engineer they are claiming to be an individual who is registered in the state.

Don't try to be condescending when you're both technically and conceptually wrong. It isn't a good look.

"Engineer" for the purpose of the ORS 672.002 definition has that meaning. However statutes don't determine what a word means in common usage. When someone says engineer, they are not referring to ORS 672.002 but rather the common meaning of engineer which you can find in any dictionary and won't support your argument.

Furthermore, in ORS 607.020 it clarifies that "In order to safeguard life, health and property, no person shall practice or offer to practice engineering in this state". The letter this man writes is not going to endanger life, health, or property so this harassment is pretty obviously in violation of the spirit of the law as well as being technically incorrect.

[Matchles]

Don't try to be condescending when you're both technically and conceptually wrong. It isn't a good look.

"Engineer" for the purpose of the ORS 672.002 definition has that meaning. However statutes don't determine what a word means in common usage. When someone says engineer, they are not referring to ORS 672.002 but rather the common meaning of engineer which you can find in any dictionary and won't support your argument.

Furthermore, in ORS 607.020 it clarifies that "In order to safeguard life, health and property, no person shall practice or offer to practice engineering in this state". The letter this man writes is not going to endanger life, health, or property so this harassment is pretty obviously in violation of the spirit of the law as well as being technically incorrect.

You can dig in all you want. Doesn't make you right or give you the ability to understand statute. In a review, a court will only go to the dictionary or general usage if the term isn't defined in statute. Here it is clearly defined. And if ORS 607.020 had any bearing on this situation, any lawyer who isn't completely useless could give you an argument as to how he is potentially endangering public safety. Say his proposed algorithm is shit and causes accidents to increase. There that took two seconds.

[Kellhound]

It isn't ambiguous at all, it is clearly defined in ORS 672.002

And you have done absolutely nothing to show it wouldn't hold up in court.

Reading the entire thing, it seems the intent was to govern "construction" related engineering to help maintain the construction cartels, and not more advanced engineers like electronic engineers.

[Allerius]

You can dig in all you want. Doesn't make you right or give you the ability to understand statute. In a review, a court will only go to the dictionary or general usage if the term isn't defined in statute. Here it is clearly defined. And if ORS 607.020 had any bearing on this situation, any lawyer who isn't completely useless could give you an argument as to how he is potentially endangering public safety. Say his proposed algorithm is shit and causes accidents to increase. There that took two seconds.

You really think that common usage is defined by statute and this guy was specifically referencing the ORS definition instead of the common definition that people actually use?

lol

[Matchles]

You really think that common usage is defined by statute and this guy was specifically referencing the ORS definition instead of the common definition that people actually use?

lol

What the hell are you talking about? I said the court will look to statute before common usage. How is this so hard to comprehend?

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Reading the entire thing, it seems the intent was to govern "construction" related engineering to help maintain the construction cartels, and not more advanced engineers like electronic engineers.

where are you see this?

[Allerius]

What the hell are you talking about? I said the court will look to statute before common usage. How is this so hard to comprehend?

It's a case about representation. Of course the common/intended meaning matters over the statute that he's probably never read. The whole point of the statute is to establish that only people claiming to be registered engineers are affected, not that the word engineer now means 'professionally registered in Oregon'. The meaning and intent behind words matters.

[Matchles]

It's a case about representation. Of course the common/intended meaning matters over the statute that he's probably never read. The whole point of the statute is to establish that only people claiming to be registered engineers are affected, not that the word engineer now means 'professionally registered in Oregon'. The meaning and intent behind words matters.

Read the effing case so I stop having to correct you on the most basic facts. He was informed of the law by the board 6 months before they opened the investigation. He continued to claim to be an engineer.

[Allerius]

Read the effing case so I stop having to correct you on the most basic facts. He was informed of the law by the board 6 months before they opened the investigation. He continued to claim to be an engineer.

He is an engineer and the word engineer doesn't imply he is professionally registered in Oregon. The board can say what it wants and he doesn't have to give a shit because they're wrong.

[Matchles]

He is an engineer and the word engineer doesn't imply he is professionally registered in Oregon. The board can say what it wants and he doesn't have to give a shit because they're wrong.

Well the law is against you, the board is against you, the guy you are defending is against you (since he paid the fee without even fighting it.) You have no cases to back you up. You can go on believing in your own little world that you are right, I'm going to return to reality.