Subtlety PTR Notes

[ymirsson]

There's definitely a lot of chatter lately revolving around the "rotation" when not dancing and how braindead and bland it is shaping up to be so MAYBE (large maybe) Blizz will react to the comments. I have no doubt that they read the PTR posts. They just dismiss things that don't fit their vision without any discussion at all. Would be nice to hear something regarding this point. Numbers are numbers and can always be raised or lowered, but man, sitting there not dancing just spamming GB or BS without anything to press except Eviscerate (sometimes refreshing NB) #feelsbadman. Would love if they built in some form of proc ability.

But what about it feels bad? If they buffed every part of the SD cycle up to 9000 then there would be no diference between SD and not SD.

[Deleted]

Wow, the Flickering Shadows change is horrible. Dont have anything more to add... Blizzard is beating a dead horse here (Subtlety Players).

[Deleted]

All performance related feedback aside 1/3/2/x/x/1/1 does feel pretty good to play HOWEVER i'm not sure how it will feel once you lose 4p and convergence.

[Jaronicity]

But what about it feels bad? If they buffed every part of the SD cycle up to 9000 then there would be no diference between SD and not SD.

Who's asking for a buff? The fact that there is little else going on other than sitting there pressing 2 and then 3 or, conversely, not pressing 2 and waiting for an RNG CP and then pressing 3. It doesn't have to be crazy damage obviously and that was never the intent in my post. It's a bit of a contentious topic because some people want to not have the downtime as it stands between dances. It's more bland than Assassination at this point and that's not fun, in my opinion.

[ymirsson]

Who's asking for a buff? The fact that there is little else going on other than sitting there pressing 2 and then 3 or, conversely, not pressing 2 and waiting for an RNG CP and then pressing 3. It doesn't have to be crazy damage obviously and that was never the intent in my post. It's a bit of a contentious topic because some people want to not have the downtime as it stands between dances. It's more bland than Assassination at this point and that's not fun, in my opinion.

i wanst talking about crazy damage. but pressing buttons is all there is in this game. i just don't see why there needs to be "more" to do in between dances in a raid setting. Or what there could be.

[elfporn]

Sounds like you guys are bitching about downtime between dances and how boring/slow it is on live and expecting it to feel the same on ptr.

They've moved a lot of energy gen out of dance and into the rotation as a whole, as well as buffing damage outside of dance. You also have SoD and goremaws(with the golden trait) to use between dances, either as filler or prep.

The rotation will be about preparing for the dances that will come probably every 30-45seconds, depending on the CD redux. And that's id you don't talent into the faster paced rotation.

Re-read the notes, then step back and look at the ptr rotation as it is.

Personally, i'd like to know how relic choices will change, and if stat prioritys will change, whether crit is going to be more highly valued now.

[Shivers1]

Sounds like you guys are bitching about downtime between dances and how boring/slow it is on live and expecting it to feel the same on ptr.

They've moved a lot of energy gen out of dance and into the rotation as a whole, as well as buffing damage outside of dance. You also have SoD and goremaws(with the golden trait) to use between dances, either as filler or prep.

The rotation will be about preparing for the dances that will come probably every 30-45seconds, depending on the CD redux. And that's id you don't talent into the faster paced rotation.

Re-read the notes, then step back and look at the ptr rotation as it is.

Personally, i'd like to know how relic choices will change, and if stat prioritys will change, whether crit is going to be more highly valued now.

I've tried the PTR and boring/slow is exactly how I would describe it.

You may be using your abilities at a slightly faster pace outside of dance than on live, but it's still just spamming back stab until CP capped then using a finisher, repeated ad nauseam.

It's not fun or engaging, and it doesn't feel like you're 'preparing' for anything given how short, infrequent, and un-impactful your dances are.

Honestly, PTR sub right now is just a lack-luster, simplified and more lethargic clone of the live version (in PvE at least).

[elfporn]

I've tried the PTR and boring/slow is exactly how I would describe it.

You may be using your abilities at a slightly faster pace outside of dance than on live, but it's still just spamming back stab until CP capped then using a finisher, repeated ad nauseam.

It's not fun or engaging, and it doesn't feel like you're 'preparing' for anything given how un-impactful your dances are.

Honestly, PTR sub right now is just a lack-luster, simplified and more lethargic clone of the live version (in PvE at least).

Thats how it was before legion.

[Valentyn]

Thats how it was before legion.

Which would be terrible for PvE content outside of raiding.

WoD sub was great in raids; but would be trash for Mythic + I feel. :/

[ymirsson]

I've tried the PTR and boring/slow is exactly how I would describe it.

You may be using your abilities at a slightly faster pace outside of dance than on live, but it's still just spamming back stab until CP capped then using a finisher, repeated ad nauseam.

It's not fun or engaging, and it doesn't feel like you're 'preparing' for anything given how un-impactful your dances are.

Honestly, PTR sub right now is just a lack-luster, simplified and more lethargic clone of the live version (in PvE at least).

rogues always were spamming a cp builder and then a use a finisher. sprinkled with a few variations. i dont see where the problem is.

[Kalador]

Wow, the Flickering Shadows change is horrible. Dont have anything more to add... Blizzard is beating a dead horse here (Subtlety Players).

I think it's​ one of the best change in the artefacts... Mobility/defensive spell should not be offensive CD...

- - - Updated - - -

Overall I think they are really doing a good job with sub on ptr. They're​ is certainly still room for improvement but I think they addressed the SD uptime very well... AoE into St is a nice nich that only very few spec have and I'm really happy they are pushing it for Sub.

[Bowshewicz]

Which would be terrible for PvE content outside of raiding.

WoD sub was great in raids; but would be trash for Mythic + I feel. :/

I am expecting that the slower, high-impact Shadow Dance build will be the go-to one for raids, and the talents that allow you to go back to the faster-paced, lots of dances build will be what you switch to to perform well in Mythic+. Of course, the ST build will have some amount of demand on Tyrannical weeks so you might not even have to switch if your comp supports it.

[Jaronicity]

Sounds like you guys are bitching about downtime between dances and how boring/slow it is on live and expecting it to feel the same on ptr.

They've moved a lot of energy gen out of dance and into the rotation as a whole, as well as buffing damage outside of dance. You also have SoD and goremaws(with the golden trait) to use between dances, either as filler or prep.

The rotation will be about preparing for the dances that will come probably every 30-45seconds, depending on the CD redux. And that's id you don't talent into the faster paced rotation.

Re-read the notes, then step back and look at the ptr rotation as it is.

Personally, i'd like to know how relic choices will change, and if stat prioritys will change, whether crit is going to be more highly valued now.

Or instead of reading the notes for the fifth time, I could download the ptr and actually experience it. Yes, energy regen is smoother outside of dance with the new traits. What @Shivers1 said is what I'm experiencing.

I love that they're looking at sub because it needs a bit of a facelift. As I said before, it's a contentious topic. I'm not here to talk about who's bitching about what, I'm here to have a discussion about what I've been seeing on the test realm. Obviously you don't see the changes the way I do and that's cool. I doubt they'll change the way out of dance plays so let's just leave it at that.

[Shivers1]

rogues always were spamming a cp builder and then a use a finisher. sprinkled with a few variations. i dont see where the problem is.

The problem is that there's nothing dynamic or risky about the rotation outside of dance.

You could say that the live version is just spamming shadow strike and using a finisher, but this would be a drastic oversimplification when you also need to be monitoring and quickly reacting to various procs and buffs that greatly influence the optimal use and timing of your abilities.

There's no skill required to play the spec optimally when you're outside of SD, and this is extremely off-putting to people who were attracted to subtlety because it requires a bit of finesse (which I'd imagine is the vast majority of us).

If they force us into talents that lower dance up-time without significantly re-working the out-of-dance rotation, they're effectively gutting both the skill floor and ceiling of the spec.

[Hobbes0773]

The problem is that there's nothing dynamic or risky about the rotation outside of dance.

You could say that the live version is just spamming shadow strike and using a finisher, but this would be a drastic oversimplification when you also need to be monitoring and quickly reacting to various procs and buffs that greatly influence the optimal use and timing of your abilities.

There's no skill required to play the spec optimally when you're outside of SD, and this is extremely off-putting to people who were attracted to subtlety because it requires a bit of finesse (which I'd imagine is the vast majority of us).

If they force us into talents that lower dance up-time without significantly re-working the out-of-dance rotation, they're effectively gutting both the skill floor and ceiling of the spec.

You use a drastic oversimplification, and then say you can't do that to live because that wouldn't be fair. wow

[Shivers1]

You use a drastic oversimplification, and then say you can't do that to live because that wouldn't be fair. wow

What exactly did I oversimplify?

I don't think I mentioned anything about fairness either.

Maybe you should actually read my post first.

[elfporn]

What exactly did I oversimplify?

I don't think I mentioned anything about fairness either.

Maybe you should actually read my post first.

You're over-simplifying the ptr rotation.

Without goremaws bite or SoD, it is indeed boring, and just like WoD sub. (Which is what people have been pushing for so hard)

So now that those who hate the legion direction has gone are getting what they want (talented options aside) We have people complaining about it.

And before you mention the lack of FW, Deep Shadows(the talent) mostly accounts for the lack of FW.

Optimizing your rotation outside of dance will increase dance uptime, whether it's through the use of SoD, goremaw's bite, or shuriken storm funneling. In addition, there's the prep, using the last free finisher for goremaws inside dance, using SoD inside dance, pooling (if needed) for dance, finality and funneling for dance.

There is a ton of nuance within the spec, but all i see is how boring it is on a target dummy. And referencing my earlier post - some of you made it sound like you hadn't played it on ptr and were comparing apples to oranges.

This new direction is the culmination of the beta test that sub has been in since launch. SD modifications via talents is the best solution to everyone's bitching.

[Maelstrom51]

SD modifications via talents is the best solution to everyone's bitching.

Not really. Ultimately, the best case scenario is that each talent is best in certain situations. More likely, one or two is dominant in most situations. Either way, its not like we'll have any choice as to what to use.

I also think its likely that these changes are going to make either singe target or AoE garbage depending on talents we choose, when on live we do fairly well at both at once.

[shoegazing]

The PTR version is nowhere near as fun to play as the Cata / MoP / WoD versions were. The devs had better continue to iterate because it needs work.

And for once I agree with the PvE crowd: there is very little to do outside of Dance.

In PvP at least we have always had a huge utility toolkit to fill in that downtime and the ability to burn vanishes for offense while Dance was on CD or going for a manual restealth to get another 3sec of subterfuge to cross CC and proc Find Weakness for bursting.

But so much of that has been pruned away.

When I argued with Celestalon on Twitter about this during the early days of the Legion Alpha, he said to me, "We think the pruning of CCs will be more than offset by the increased access to Cheap Shot."

Well, so much for that argument, lol.

Anyway, Dark Shadows is at least a baby step in the right direction but it still has big problems. 1. it's boring "X% more damage" and 2. it's active only on Dance not on openers from Stealth like FW was so restealthing and/or Vanishing offensively still feels undervalued in PvP.

You could easily improve this talent just by changing the language a bit... "Your Cheap Shot and Shadowstrike abilities empower the Fangs with Dark Energies, causing your attacks to deal X% extra damage as Shadow damage for 10 seconds."

[Deleted]

btw. what you guys miss is that wod sub was only engaging becouse of the soul condensator trinket, the tier set and the legendary ring.
that interaction made it intressting.

legion sub had/has some new/diffrent interactions that can be seen as intressting gameplay.
7.2.5 changes do remove some of these. making the gameplay easyer and the spec more acessable but probably also less engaging.

its up to everyones own opinion if he likes/dislikes the changes however i wouldnt argue about anything else then gameplay in the current iteration.