[Balance] Legion Discussion

[Polarthief]

It brings the item closer to the stated design (casting more Starsurges together while leaving a long enough window to account for latency). Raid encounters aren't suited to turreting.

Mmhmm, while still keeping Surgeweaving for those who want to do it. They always say how they want designs to be suited for both low and high skill players, so why not do that to ED?

[Zan15]

hehe

Making Disc priests less Innervate reliant is important.
Some of the classes are still hybrids, with a history and identity that is rooted in offering support to others. There is some value in recognizing this.


making our utility even less important is a good design structure when the next statement is there is value in being a hybrid.

/head scratch
/face palm
/head smash

[Polarthief]

hehe

Making Disc priests less Innervate reliant is important.
Some of the classes are still hybrids, with a history and identity that is rooted in offering support to others. There is some value in recognizing this.


making our utility even less important is a good design structure when the next statement is there is value in being a hybrid.

/head scratch
/face palm
/head smash

- Innervate's already been nerfed, and while it's a solid cooldown, it's hardly anything close to what other classes (even non-healer hybrids) bring.
- Our healing is beyond pitiful and not even worth mentioning. For one global, a Mage easily outheals us (we just have the benefit of using the shitty spell 5 times instead of 1 Arcane/Fire/Ice Barrier).
- Outside of Innervate, it's all the utility we have. We're also squishy and healer-reliant due to having ONE fairly weak cooldown and nothing else (could go Bear form, but most other classes don't greatly sacrifice their DPS/Healing to live)
- Can either do good sustained (NOT burst) AoE, or mediocre ST. Cannot do both like other classes/specs can.

Seeing this list, it's almost like asking "why bring a Balance Druid when we could bring <insert XYZ here>?".

Let's compare to a Warlock:

- Crazy high damage (both ST and AoE)
- Broken survivability (50% of all damage taken is usually absorbed, then they also have self-healing)
- Also has a battle rez (that can also be pre-emptively cast)
- Out of Combat utility: Summoning Portal and Healthstones (for the cheap/lazy bastards who don't make healing potion)

Seems fair. Like I'm not asking to be the best at EVERYTHING, but when you're bad in all the following categories, you know there's a problem:
- ST damage (even worse if you want to do any decent Sustained AoE), which is the cornerstone of raiding.
- Burst AoE damage, also a pretty important raiding tool.
- Survivability from anything that isn't a direct physical attack (AoE Physical attacks in raids are NOT reduced by armor)
- Utility (BRez which other classes can bring and Innervate)
- Talents (a lot of dead/trap talents and tons of talents that bring QoL but are often overshadowed by other, better, talents)

[Tyze]

ED is the only way we can have remotively competitive ST damage. Of course people will be mad when it's nerfed.

For all I care, they could remove the damn helm if they fixed our ST damage in exchange.

I think this is a problem for the devs. The helmet is broken (still). Buffing our singletarget will most likely be a buff to the helm. More nerfs to the helmet will make it useless


Well blizzard just sat on their shit on this one lol. I dont want it to be baseline though, rather see it removed

[wewe]

They need to buff our single target without touching SS or ASP generation of our fillers. Anything else and it will force us more and more into rooted turrets with ED to do ST dmg.
Best bet would be to move more dmg to dots and balance Starfall accordingly to not make our aoe OP.

- Innervate's already been nerfed, and while it's a solid cooldown, it's hardly anything close to what other classes (even non-healer hybrids) bring.
- Our healing is beyond pitiful and not even worth mentioning. For one global, a Mage easily outheals us (we just have the benefit of using the shitty spell 5 times instead of 1 Arcane/Fire/Ice Barrier).
- Outside of Innervate, it's all the utility we have. We're also squishy and healer-reliant due to having ONE fairly weak cooldown and nothing else (could go Bear form, but most other classes don't greatly sacrifice their DPS/Healing to live)
- Can either do good sustained (NOT burst) AoE, or mediocre ST. Cannot do both like other classes/specs can.

You forgot the really bad target swapping we have (now that CI is in the game), which is an important point, since blizzard really likes creating encounters that require fast swaps.

[Bugg]

This is starting again to be negatively Scarry.
Where are the pluses of being a laser chicken/forest cow/0wl!

[Slippykins]

Anyone had a chance to scan the ToS trinkets? Aside from tuning, they don't look well itemized for boomies, berhaps the arcane owl one. Might have to hope for annocrystal even more.

From discussing the ToS trinkets in #balance as well as some napkin maths, it's looking like Charm and Whispers will be our go-to trinkets for 7.2.5. The trinkets besides Charm are pretty crap, and if they don't get a buff like the EN trinkets did, Whispers will be too strong for another tier. Hope that you get a 925 Whispers before ToS comes out!

[Lahis]

I agree, in spirit, but last week I played at the 97th percentile for my ilvl, on a single target fight, and came 8th on our meter (everyone has roughly the same gear). That's with ED and IFE. 97th % is the best I got... 8th...

What is that phrase? Oh ya, feels bad man!

Now imagine the results if you didn't have ED like I do.

- - - Updated - - -

This is starting again to be negatively Scarry.
Where are the pluses of being a laser chicken/forest cow/0wl!

Plusses are found in previous expansions.

[Siglius]

From discussing the ToS trinkets in #balance as well as some napkin maths, it's looking like Charm and Whispers will be our go-to trinkets for 7.2.5. The trinkets besides Charm are pretty crap, and if they don't get a buff like the EN trinkets did, Whispers will be too strong for another tier. Hope that you get a 925 Whispers before ToS comes out!

They have buffed the trinkets from live to the 7.2.5 PTR by A LOT in most cases. I've found out that the trinket that spawns the owl thingie on a 2min CD, does nearly 4.5m damage per cast, based on actual testing. That seems pretty alright. And the shark trinket from the naga witch boss does nealy 1m damage on ST when it procs. Talking about the 905 NM versions here. Don't know if you added this in your calculations but I though I'd add it.

[Slippykins]

They have buffed the trinkets from live to the 7.2.5 PTR by A LOT in most cases. I've found out that the trinket that spawns the owl thingie on a 2min CD, does nearly 4.5m damage per cast, based on actual testing. That seems pretty alright. And the shark trinket from the naga witch boss does nealy 1m damage on ST when it procs. Talking about the 905 NM versions here. Don't know if you added this in your calculations but I though I'd add it.

This is good news, once the changes are pushed through to mmo-c we should be able to have a better look.

[Lahis]

Fuck me in the ass with rough 2x4... they're gonna give us more legendaries in 7.2.5? And I'm still missing ED... it will be nice to get all those shitty new ones before I get the most essential piece of gear in this whole damn expansion...

[Nijurez]

Fuck me in the ass with rough 2x4... they're gonna give us more legendaries in 7.2.5? And I'm still missing ED... it will be nice to get all those shitty new ones before I get the most essential piece of gear in this whole damn expansion...

I thought they meant newly obtained legendaries and not additional, but I would be pretty excited if they came out with more. However I would be more excited if they were Spec Specific.

Speaking of legendaries. One of my guildies has Oneth's Intuition. What is the optimal way to use this? Another one of our balance druids had mentioned making use of stellar flare, I thought it made incarn even more appealing than it already is, didn't know if it was fight specific or if one of the talents truly outshined the other with this legendary. Thanks!

[Polarthief]

They have buffed the trinkets from live to the 7.2.5 PTR by A LOT in most cases. I've found out that the trinket that spawns the owl thingie on a 2min CD, does nearly 4.5m damage per cast, based on actual testing. That seems pretty alright. And the shark trinket from the naga witch boss does nealy 1m damage on ST when it procs. Talking about the 905 NM versions here. Don't know if you added this in your calculations but I though I'd add it.

Except the shark trinket also hurts you and splits damage, on top of giving Crit. So... yeah, that sure sounds like a winner of a trinket.


Anyway, it sure would be nice to get some changed talents since other classes/specs are getting them... Being forced into ST or AoE also really, REALLY sucks right now.

[Kluian05]

I will be pretty shocked if they don't end up buffing Solar Wrath/Lunar Strike damage in 7.2.5. That seems like a simple fix for lackluster single target DPS for Moonkin.

[Siglius]

Except the shark trinket also hurts you and splits damage, on top of giving Crit. So... yeah, that sure sounds like a winner of a trinket.


Anyway, it sure would be nice to get some changed talents since other classes/specs are getting them... Being forced into ST or AoE also really, REALLY sucks right now.

Except it doesn't. Atleast not in actual playtesting. It spilts damage between targets, maybe you aswell if you're standing right in the boss asshole. But otherwise not. Also crit might actually be less terrible due to T20 2-set. But what do I know, I'm not a theorycrafter. The owl trinket gives mastery, and A LOT of mastery, gave me like 6% on the 905 version. Also I'm not quite sure why you want talent changes, yes we swap talents quite often in NH but thats no biggie and a lt of other classes has to deal with that aswell.

Edit: If you were talking about our basicly "dead" talents ie: Stellar flare and FoE I 100% agree.

[Polarthief]

Except it doesn't. Atleast not in actual playtesting. It spilts damage between targets, maybe you aswell if you're standing right in the boss asshole. But otherwise not.

"It doesn't, but it does if you're close enough to the effect" what? Regardless, it splits damage, Crit will only be "buffed" for (a portion of your) ST, once you have the 2P, and I don't think it'll be buffed beyond Mastery/Haste levels.

[Ifeanychukwu]

Fuck me in the ass with rough 2x4... they're gonna give us more legendaries in 7.2.5? And I'm still missing ED... it will be nice to get all those shitty new ones before I get the most essential piece of gear in this whole damn expansion...

Iunno, as someone with every boomkin legendary minus the trinket I don't really like using ED. It may perform the best on ST but unless your group is okay with you just totally ignoring mechanics any kind of movement totally wrecks the rotation. IFE with either the shoulders/wrist or even prydaz just feels much better to use. OI feels really nice to use while getting lots of procs and prydaz is always great, especially as a boomkin because of how squishy we are.

I was much more keen on getting ED before I actually got it. Once I did I realized that the others really aren't so terrible.

[Polarthief]

Iunno, as someone with every boomkin legendary minus the trinket I don't really like using ED. It may perform the best on ST but unless your group is okay with you just totally ignoring mechanics any kind of movement totally wrecks the rotation. IFE with either the shoulders/wrist or even prydaz just feels much better to use. OI feels really nice to use while getting lots of procs and prydaz is always great, especially as a boomkin because of how squishy we are.

I was much more keen on getting ED before I actually got it. Once I did I realized that the others really aren't so terrible.

Yup, same. I just run LATC/OI every fight (still don't have IFE), even Krosus and Trilliax.

[Kluian05]

Well LATC is a really good legendary. It holds its weight single target and is one of the best for multi-target. I don't have ED or IFE (hopefully some day) but I'm not sure I'd be too thrilled about playing around with ED anyways unless ToS has some pure patchwerk fight.

[Tyze]

I will be pretty shocked if they don't end up buffing Solar Wrath/Lunar Strike damage in 7.2.5. That seems like a simple fix for lackluster single target DPS for Moonkin.

Thing is, yes they will buff us. But they will also at the same time buff many other specs, which means our buffs probably wont cut it.