Inequality in America is getting worse according to top economists

[Vash The Stampede]

No, 3 is not the same as 1. Your income remaining the same is not the same as your income decreasing. That's pretty basic.

Since an economy is dynamic, this is why I consider them both the same. If the cost of owning a home is rising, as well as gas and food and etc, then making $16k a year seems like a decrease in wealth. If you're a wealthy individual who makes over a million a year, this is about as concerning as buying a pack of gum. If you make over 1m a year, do you care about rent, gas prices, and food?

And you're claiming it's not happening statistically, but what is wealth? Is wealth just a dollar amount adjusted for inflation? Or is wealth quality of life? Which one are they measuring?

Wealth is kinda everything. Everyone wants more quality of life, that's for certain, but you also want a good chunk of change for your work. I guess whatever is the lowest common denominator. What good is quality of life if you can't afford to buy that new video game, and what good is money is you can't afford rent?

You can keep the money. I'll take quality of life thank you very much.

Same here, give me that quality of life.

The problem is that the market is not flooded with qualified workers. It is flooded with kids who have degrees in underwater basket weaving and cooperative womens studies or the coveted liberal arts degree. How does that teach you how to build something or fix anything?

That depends. Are they applying for a job to build or fix something with a study in cooperative women's studies? Not that it matters cause companies have been hiring people from India who are 95% of the time not qualified to work. Companies have been known to train workers and pay them, especially in the IT field.

So what's better? Training someone who isn't ready for the job who isn't Murican, or training an American with a useless degree? You're training them one way or another.

We as a country need to push kids to learn how to work. Not trying to say that everyone needs to become a blue collar worker, but that we need to let people know that skilled trades are out there and we have an aging workforce.

That aging population might continue to exist for a very long time.

Not everyone needs to go to college to be successful like all of our guidance councilors tried to tell us in high school. If you learn a trade and excel at it you will always be able to find work and be able to support yourself and a family. People are always going to need things built and repaired. Working in the construction industry for almost 20 years I have seen lots of young people come and go and the ones that apply themselves and work hard go on to succeed and the ones that don't well you can figure it out.

Not saying you're wrong, but exactly how many jobs like building or repairing you think exists for those with just high school degrees or any degree? I'm a talented human being and I'd like to think I am, as I've rebuilt cars and computers and then some. I have literally rebuilt a C5 Corvette from top to bottom. Painted every body part except for the trunk. Did welding to repair the front. How many mechanic shops want to hire a guy like me with no formal education in auto repair? I can change alternators and brake pads. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Nobody will hire me cause I have no work experience with this. And to make things worse the adoption of the electric car is upon us. What do mechanics do with electric cars? Rarely change brake pads and tires? Change the battery every 10 years? Give it a wax? As for contruction, I could see it being optimized with modern technology. If not for 3d printed houses, then brick laying robots will remove jobs.

[RuneDK]

Thats not the point I am making. In order to play in the NBA or the NFL, you are required to have a certain set of SKILLS and those SKILLS have to be better then the other people in order to make the team.

- - - Updated - - -



But if you had great SKILLS it wouldnt matter your height, right?

Isiah Thomas is not a superstar because of his height. So skills aren't everything.

- - - Updated - - -

That is an entirely different point then what I am making. However,, if someone had plumbing skills, they are less likely to be replaced by automation.

Trades will ultimately be the only safe jobs as automation is possible but not likely for those jobs.

[Deleted]

It is optional. You can always find a better job.
You choose to work in a McDonald's flipping the burgers and you get paid for whats its worth (which isn't much).
Don't like it, go get a better job. Last time I checked I don't have any education or connections and I made it just fine.

Are you pretending to be dumb? I was pretty clear that I meant the job itself was optional, as in no one would notice if no one does it. Not that it is optional to accept the job, of course everyone can always refuse a job; if you like to be hungry and live on the streets.

Then again 'modern' republicans seem to think the way to fight 'socialism' is to be complete anti social dickweeds. You're the laughingstock of the world by the way. We just feel sorry for the many sane people living in the USA.

[Tennis]

It is optional. You can always find a better job.
You choose to work in a McDonald's flipping the burgers and you get paid for whats its worth (which isn't much).
Don't like it, go get a better job. Last time I checked I don't have any education or connections and I made it just fine.

You made it? What did you make bud?

[PainREIGN]

Not saying you're wrong, but exactly how many jobs like building or repairing you think exists for those with just high school degrees or any degree? I'm a talented human being and I'd like to think I am, as I've rebuilt cars and computers and then some.

Maybe it was different when i was coming up but when I found my first construction job it was simply hey i don't know what i'm doing but I want to learn. Next day I was on a roof setting metal panels. Fast forward a year I changed jobs and become a structural Ironworker. After 9 years and becoming a journeyman Ironworker i met a girl and decided to have a family. So i got a job at a local steel fab shop welding the things i used to put up out in the field. 8 years later the companies purchasing agent retires and they want someone who has a background and knowledge of computers. Thanks computer gaming. So me and my high school diploma made a decent career for ourselves all because a little elbow grease and some computer gaming.

I know my story is a fluke but what i'm saying is a little work ethic and less I need to go to college mentality might benefit some of the upcoming members of adult society

[Yvaelle]

The rich are getting richer, and so is everybody else.

http://www.urban.org/sites/default/f...ddle-Class.pdf

A) That table doesn't reflect the final adjustments in methodology that report is attempting to show, it's a partial-step table.

B) The use of PCE methodology inflation adjustments, rather than then the commonly accepted consumer price index (CPI) distorts the data in your favor (the report acknowledges this right at the start).

C) Income is a bad measure of wealth. Wealth inequality - not income inequality - is what actually matters. C deserves more explanation, so let's explore this for a moment. For most people, your income is what your employer pays you as a salary for doing your job. Functionally, Capital Gains are not income. A capital gain is an increase in the value of a capital asset: so if you own stocks in a company, and the stock value goes from $5 to $100/share, you have not gained income, you have gained capital (capital gains).

Capital gains are only income when they are 'realized': sold and turned into cash. As example, let's say your employer pays you $100k/year in salary one year, and your tax bracket is 26%. You pay less than $26k in taxable income (because tax brackets are progressive).

Next year, your boss offers you a promotion, but wants to do so in the form of company stock. You still earn $100k/year in salary, and pay <$26k in income tax on your salary. You additionally gain $50k/year in new company stock. You pay <$13k in tax on that gained stock in the first year.

Then you get to year three, so you gain $100k in salary still, and $50k in stock for this third year - you put the new $50k stocks into a different company - so you are $150k in income: and pay <$39k in income tax as a result. But, you still own the capital of your $50k in stocks from Year 2. Your startup took off like a tech startup, your stocks have gone from 10000 shares @ $5/share in Year 2, to now $50/share, and you have 10000 of them from Year 2 - which are now worth $500k. You decide to not sell your $500k in shares.

What is your income for Year 3? $150k (not $650k!). You have not realized your $500k in capital gains, so you pay no tax on that $500k gain.

Now you are into Year 4. You still only make $100k salary/year. You still only get an additional $50k shares per year. Your taxable income is still $150k.
Your Year 2 shares, originally worth $50k, and worth $500k in Year 3, have gone up again and are now worth $200/share: or $2M in unrealize capital gains.
Your Year 3 shares, worth $50k last year, but invested into another company - went worse than bankrupt. Not only did you lose your $50k Year 3 shares, but the companies creditors are coming after you for $500k of the companies debt at the time of bankruptcy. Not to worry.
You realize $500k from your Year 2 shares (worth $2M), and use it to pay off the angry creditors from your second company. You claim $500k in realized capital losses from your second company, and realize $500k on your Year 2 capital gains. Since these cancel each other out, you pay zero tax on realizing that $500k capital gains.

Year 5, yadda yadda yadda - you are a multi-millionaire despite your modest $100k/year salary.
Your Year 2 stocks are now worth $5M. Your Year 3 stocks are vanished into that bankrupt company. Your Year 4 stocks are worth lets say $500k.
You have $5.5M in unrealized capital gains.
You elect a Republican. They declare a capital gains tax-free holiday grace period - during which you can realize all your capital gains without taxes (Bush Jr, Bush Sr, Reagan, etc all did this - Trump will too at some point).
You and all the other rich folk sell all stocks, possibly collapsing the stock market and ruining normal peoples mutual funds and petty investment portfolios.
You gain $5.5M in your bank account from your realized capital gains, but you pay no taxes on it: your income was still only $100k + $50 in stocks this year.

You log onto internet forums to whinge about income tax rates, while you Scrooge McDuck backstroke through pools of capital gains money.

[Vash The Stampede]

Maybe it was different when i was coming up but when I found my first construction job it was simply hey i don't know what i'm doing but I want to learn. Next day I was on a roof setting metal panels. Fast forward a year I changed jobs and become a structural Ironworker. After 9 years and becoming a journeyman Ironworker i met a girl and decided to have a family. So i got a job at a local steel fab shop welding the things i used to put up out in the field. 8 years later the companies purchasing agent retires and they want someone who has a background and knowledge of computers. Thanks computer gaming. So me and my high school diploma made a decent career for ourselves all because a little elbow grease and some computer gaming.

I know my story is a fluke but what i'm saying is a little work ethic and less I need to go to college mentality might benefit some of the upcoming members of adult society

Well you live in Idaho which has a population of 1.6 million, where as in NJ has nearly 9 million. And right next to NJ is NYC which has nearly 8.5 million people. NY State has nearly 20 million people. Population plays a role in terms of how many other people maybe fighting for jobs.

In the TriState Area employers have many choices for people to employ. When people have choices, they will use any metric to determine who is or isn't qualified.

[Deleted]

I know my story is a fluke but what i'm saying is a little work ethic and less I need to go to college mentality might benefit some of the upcoming members of adult society

At the moment in The Netherlands I get the impression that the goal is that everyone should be able to get a college degree. It used to be: everyone should be (financially) able to go to college. The result is that now you have to look at what degree people got, where and with what grades, where it used to be enough to know someone graduated.

Two consequences: 1. Many unemployed with master degrees. 2. Too few people with vocational training.

But because we have a decent minimum wage, that actually allows you to live of a single full time job, people have the chance to work and have the time to get some additional training to get further in life.

There is no way to do that if you have to work a full time job and an additional job, just to afford a roof over your head and have some money for food and clothing. You have been incredibly lucky. It used to happen more often. I have family that started as a bank teller 40 years ago and ended up at the trading desk, without any formal education. No bank today will hire someone at the trading desk without a formal education.

[Deleted]

25K USD per year is quite huge amount of money from where i came from. Majority of people here are making like 7K USD

[Mormolyce]

You're not actually holding that up sincerely, are you? That is a bit of cheap Question Time posturing.

[wheresmywoft]

25K USD per year is quite huge amount of money from where i came from. Majority of people here are making like 7K USD

With respect with the world sure. But 25K USD in most locations of the US is far from enough for basics for a family.

[Anon56]

We need action. I can't believe people voted in the new guy who is gonna cut taxes on the rich

Voting won't change this phenomenon and it will only get worse and faster, it's the basic principle of capitalism.

For a golden century the West didn't really see it or care because the people living on the bottom were in another 3rd world country far away. But thing changes and now this inequality is affecting people in developed countries. Suddenly some people seem to care.

Well it's too late, you can't change that by voting you can only slow the process. The machine is running and there's no simple way to stop it, so you either destroy it or let it destroy itself. But anyway, the world will turn to shit when the magic machine stop running.

[Theodarzna]

Voting won't change this phenomenon and it will only get worse and faster, it's the basic principle of capitalism.

For a golden century the West didn't really see it or care because the people living on the bottom were in another 3rd world country far away. But thing changes and now this inequality is affecting people in developed countries. Suddenly some people seem to care.

Well it's too late, you can't change that by voting you can only slow the process. The machine is running and there's no simple way to stop it, so you either destroy it or let it destroy itself. But anyway, the world will turn to shit when the magic machine stop running.

Anyone who thinks voting would have mattered in this issue need only consider the inaction and willing complicity in it by the last two elected Democrat administrations.

[Nerovar]

A) That table doesn't reflect the final adjustments in methodology that report is attempting to show, it's a partial-step table.

B) The use of PCE methodology inflation adjustments, rather than then the commonly accepted consumer price index (CPI) distorts the data in your favor (the report acknowledges this right at the start).

C) Income is a bad measure of wealth. Wealth inequality - not income inequality - is what actually matters. C deserves more explanation, so let's explore this for a moment. For most people, your income is what your employer pays you as a salary for doing your job. Functionally, Capital Gains are not income. A capital gain is an increase in the value of a capital asset: so if you own stocks in a company, and the stock value goes from $5 to $100/share, you have not gained income, you have gained capital (capital gains).

Capital gains are only income when they are 'realized': sold and turned into cash. As example, let's say your employer pays you $100k/year in salary one year, and your tax bracket is 26%. You pay less than $26k in taxable income (because tax brackets are progressive).

Next year, your boss offers you a promotion, but wants to do so in the form of company stock. You still earn $100k/year in salary, and pay <$26k in income tax on your salary. You additionally gain $50k/year in new company stock. You pay <$13k in tax on that gained stock in the first year.

Then you get to year three, so you gain $100k in salary still, and $50k in stock for this third year - you put the new $50k stocks into a different company - so you are $150k in income: and pay <$39k in income tax as a result. But, you still own the capital of your $50k in stocks from Year 2. Your startup took off like a tech startup, your stocks have gone from 10000 shares @ $5/share in Year 2, to now $50/share, and you have 10000 of them from Year 2 - which are now worth $500k. You decide to not sell your $500k in shares.

What is your income for Year 3? $150k (not $650k!). You have not realized your $500k in capital gains, so you pay no tax on that $500k gain.

Now you are into Year 4. You still only make $100k salary/year. You still only get an additional $50k shares per year. Your taxable income is still $150k.
Your Year 2 shares, originally worth $50k, and worth $500k in Year 3, have gone up again and are now worth $200/share: or $2M in unrealize capital gains.
Your Year 3 shares, worth $50k last year, but invested into another company - went worse than bankrupt. Not only did you lose your $50k Year 3 shares, but the companies creditors are coming after you for $500k of the companies debt at the time of bankruptcy. Not to worry.
You realize $500k from your Year 2 shares (worth $2M), and use it to pay off the angry creditors from your second company. You claim $500k in realized capital losses from your second company, and realize $500k on your Year 2 capital gains. Since these cancel each other out, you pay zero tax on realizing that $500k capital gains.

Year 5, yadda yadda yadda - you are a multi-millionaire despite your modest $100k/year salary.
Your Year 2 stocks are now worth $5M. Your Year 3 stocks are vanished into that bankrupt company. Your Year 4 stocks are worth lets say $500k.
You have $5.5M in unrealized capital gains.
You elect a Republican. They declare a capital gains tax-free holiday grace period - during which you can realize all your capital gains without taxes (Bush Jr, Bush Sr, Reagan, etc all did this - Trump will too at some point).
You and all the other rich folk sell all stocks, possibly collapsing the stock market and ruining normal peoples mutual funds and petty investment portfolios.
You gain $5.5M in your bank account from your realized capital gains, but you pay no taxes on it: your income was still only $100k + $50 in stocks this year.

You log onto internet forums to whinge about income tax rates, while you Scrooge McDuck backstroke through pools of capital gains money.

Topkek great story. I love to see people with actual knowledge (meaning beyond reading a wikipedia page lul) commenting on this forum.

[Yvaelle]

Topkek great story. I love to see people with actual knowledge (meaning beyond reading a wikipedia page lul) commenting on this forum.

Thanks - always good to know someone is reading my walls of text

[Nerovar]

Thanks - always good to know someone is reading my walls of text

There are enough people here who only post their valuable opinions and throw around buzzwords. It's a bit tiresome to be honest.

[kamuimac]

Maybe it was different when i was coming up but when I found my first construction job it was simply hey i don't know what i'm doing but I want to learn. Next day I was on a roof setting metal panels. Fast forward a year I changed jobs and become a structural Ironworker. After 9 years and becoming a journeyman Ironworker i met a girl and decided to have a family. So i got a job at a local steel fab shop welding the things i used to put up out in the field. 8 years later the companies purchasing agent retires and they want someone who has a background and knowledge of computers. Thanks computer gaming. So me and my high school diploma made a decent career for ourselves all because a little elbow grease and some computer gaming.

I know my story is a fluke but what i'm saying is a little work ethic and less I need to go to college mentality might benefit some of the upcoming members of adult society

nice story but the gist is it took you 18 years to get a semi-level office job - congrats to you but most of univeristy graduates want to get on similiar position straight from uni not after 15 + years.

and thats the real problem with many people - they desire muhc more then they ever can get.

[Nadiru]

C) Income is a bad measure of wealth. Wealth inequality - not income inequality - is what actually matters. C deserves more explanation, so let's explore this for a moment. For most people, your income is what your employer pays you as a salary for doing your job. Functionally, Capital Gains are not income. A capital gain is an increase in the value of a capital asset: so if you own stocks in a company, and the stock value goes from $5 to $100/share, you have not gained income, you have gained capital (capital gains).

Wealth and income inequality continue to be symptoms rather than causes. Tax structures alone won't fix the problem, or to put it another way: If a shift in the tax structure does fix the problem, it's not because the government is effective at reducing inequality but is effective at reducing total capital to invest. Which isn't the problem we have today in the US. We do have the problem of investment being misplaced to achieve internal balance, fwiw, and the government could potentially fix that...at the expense of all those entitlements programs that are held as sacred cows.