Will Army of Light vs The Void Lords themed expansion finally unlock orcish priests?

[Deleted]

Sorrey for necroing this thread. But it's a such important topic for me that I art-farted some kind of impression of an orc SP.



Bleeding Hollow and Shadowmoon exile/refugee folks crossing over from AU Draenor. The holy spec could be just Argent teachings or the aforementioned K'ure / Nagrand ancestral light OR just Argent teachings.

[Deleted]

Very nice art

[Cheapnecrolyte]

There's orc priests already and they are called orc warlocks.

[Raetary]

There's orc priests already and they are called orc warlocks.

Locks arent priests

[Aucald]

There's orc priests already and they are called orc warlocks.

Wait, I thought Warlocks were Necromancers in your particular view of the class system. Are they now also Priests?

[Cheapnecrolyte]

Locks arent priests

Interesting. Tell me more about how warlocks aren't priests even though they wield the technically divine magic of the God of Fel (which is created because of the divine Light and Void) or lead acolytes with rituals in which demons are summoned and bound. You know, while some warlocks might not worship demons, there are some that do. Obviously they can definitely be considered a priestly class or priests that enslave the source of their power, especially if they use the fel magic of fel shivarra that serve Sargeras as priestesses that lead his demonic acolytes.

Wait, I thought Warlocks were Necromancers in your particular view of the class system. Are they now also Priests?

Were? No Alucard. Are.

[Aucald]

Were? No Alucard. Are.

It would be the third definition of the term "were," being:

having the state, quality, identity, nature, role, etc., specified.

But you answered my question in the response to Arafal. I don't agree, of course - not all Warlocks worships Sargeras or any other greater demons and still use Fel power just fine. If Sargeras can't control and/or restrict the usage of Fel then he would most certainly not be the god of it. The Fel also predates Sargeras' existence which further disqualifies him from godhood in that specific context.

[Polybius]

Interesting. Tell me more about how warlocks aren't priests even though they wield the technically divine magic of the God of Fel (which is created because of the divine Light and Void) or lead acolytes with rituals in which demons are summoned and bound. You know, while some warlocks might not worship demons, there are some that do. Obviously they can definitely be considered a priestly class or priests that enslave the source of their power, especially if they use the fel magic of fel shivarra that serve Sargeras as priestesses that lead his demonic acolytes.



Were? No Alucard. Are.

Warlocks tap into all destructive and corrupting magics. Priests tap into Light and Void.

The balance between Light and Void is shown in Disc priests. Opposite of Fel is Arcane, or Order, and Fel is the chaotic collision between Light and Void in the Twisting Nether.

Warlocks are the witches of WoW, they too can worship beings. Warriors can worship gods affiliated with the Light. Druids can worship Elune and summon beings. Demon Hunters can be felsworn and work for Sargeras. That doesn't make them priests, however. The outstanding trait of priests is their vision into the future and the afterlife. They're the psychic healers of WoW.

[Cheapnecrolyte]

I don't agree, of course - not all Warlocks worships Sargeras.

Of course you don't agree and that's because you consistently fail to understand what warlocks are about. You know, babies and even the godlike titans aren't born with demonic knowledge and mastery over fel demons and their fel magics. So you shouldn't expect me to believe that warlocks themselves are masters of fel demons and their demonic fel magics. If anything, eredar warlocks are priests who serve Sargeras as leaders who lead his demonic acolytes with rituals in which demons are summoned and controlled. If anything, satyr warlocks - despite being masters of fel magic - serve Sargeras as leaders who command an army of demonic acolytes.

If Sargeras can't control and/or restrict the usage of Fel then he would most certainly not be the god of it

Fel magic is the magic of a fel army of fel demons from an astral dimension that transcends all realities. If Elune can't control and/or restrict the usage of fel meteors from the astral Nether despite being the astral goddess of the moon, you can't expect me to believe warlocks are the masters of fel meteors and fel magics. Demonologists must be ultra gods if they can rain brimstone and fire from the heavens.

You see, you would act as if Sargeras isn't the God of Fel or act as if the fel demons that serve Sargeras aren't gods (even though they do indeed have the requirement to be considered gods), but then act as if warlocks can wield fel magic just fine without being servants of a "higher" power.

The Fel also predates Sargeras' existence which further disqualifies him from godhood in that specific context.

Oh Aucard....don't you know that Blizzard deals with timey wimey nonsense? Sargeras could have transformed into a walking contradiction when this titan became infused with fel magic - the opposite magic of the titans' arcane magic - and created an army that oppose the very thing that he - as a titan - represented. Sargeras could have transcended reality when he went to the Nether, essentially becoming some unreal god that no longer exists in reality, then boom boom pow created a fel army of demons and their fel magic.

Warlocks tap into all destructive and corrupting magics. Priests tap into Light and Void.

Warlocks tap into the fel magic of fel meteors that rain from the heavens. Their fel magic ultimately exists because of the divine Light and Void, which ultimately means the divine Light and Void are - or have - something integral to (or a part of) fel magic. Fel magic is technically divine, used by the fel priestesses of Sargeras who yap about the destiny of all mortals.

Warlocks are the witches of WoW, they too can worship beings. Warriors can worship gods affiliated with the Light. Druids can worship Elune and summon beings. Demon Hunters can be felsworn and work for Sargeras. That doesn't make them priests, however. The outstanding trait of priests is their vision into the future and the afterlife. They're the psychic healers of WoW.

Tell me more about how warlocks can wield a technically divine magic resulting from the divine Light and Void without being diviners who divine information from the God of Fel and Flame. You know the outstanding trait of warlocks is their fel vision into the future or their ability to "command" all-seeing observers from an astral dimension that transcends all realities.

Also:

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Felsworn_Soulpriest

^There is your orc priest

[Deleted]

Army of light BS will be the end of what makes Warcraft great.

[Raetary]

-snip-

oh my god.

i regret having removed you from my ignore list.

[Aucald]

Of course you don't agree and that's because you consistently fail to understand what warlocks are about. You know, babies and even the godlike titans aren't born with demonic knowledge and mastery over fel demons and their fel magics. So you shouldn't expect me to believe that warlocks themselves are masters of fel demons and their demonic fel magics. If anything, eredar warlocks are acolyte servants who serve Sargeras as leaders who lead his demonic acolytes with rituals in which demons are summoned and controlled. If anything, warlocks are priests of the astral goddess of the moon, Elune, or the god of a fel world and pray so that fel meteors rain from the heavens.

Warlocks *can* consider themselves to be all those things - my point was that not all Warlocks worship Sargeras. Some Warlocks may not even know Sargeras exists, or even if they aware the demons have a leader they know little to nothing of him. Sargeras doesn't control their access to or knowledge of the Fel - worship of him is not requires to use the Fel or take power from it. As such, Sargeras can't really be considered the god of Fel as the Fel does not derive from him. If "Chronicle Vol. 1" is any guide the relationship is actually that Sargeras (as he is today) is a product of the Fel's influence, not vice-versa.

Fel magic is the magic of a fel army of fel demons from an astral dimension that transcends all realities. If Elune can't control and/or restrict the usage of fel meteors from the astral Nether despite being the astral goddess of the moon, you can't expect me to believe warlocks are the masters of fel meteors and fel magics. Demonologists must be ultra gods if they can rain brimstone and fire from the heavens.

You see, you would act as if Sargeras isn't the God of Fel or act as if the fel demons that serve Sargeras aren't gods (even though they do indeed have the requirement to be considered gods), but then act as if warlocks can wield fel magic just fine without being servants of a "higher" power.

Priests and Priestesses of Elune can call down Arcane moonlight, celestial objects in the form of miniature stars, and even beseech Elune for direct intercession. I don't personally consider Elune a "god" per se myself, but she certainly fits the bill closer than Sargeras. Warlocks wield Fel as one of the sources of power in the Warcraft universe, no different from wielding the Arcane, Elemental, Druidic, or Shamanic power. All of these things are more-or-less natural universal wavelengths of energy. They aren't controlled by anything, really; even the Light and the Void can be harnessed and used without the direct approval or permissions of greater beings like the Naaru or the Void Lords.

Oh Alucard....don't you know that Blizzard deals with timey wimey nonsense? Sargeras could have transformed into a walking contradiction when this titan became infused with fel magic - the opposite magic of the titans' arcane magic - and created an army that oppose the very thing that he - as a titan - represented. Sargeras could have transcended reality when he went to the Nether, essentially becoming some unreal god that no longer exists in reality, then boom boom pow created a fel army of demons that led him to become a walking contradiction that believes in Void spirits.

The Legion and some mortal Warlocks may see Sargeras as a god, he's powerful enough to be deified by some. Being having the title of "god" doesn't outright make you one on the objective level. While the Nether is dimensionally transcendent from the physical universe it isn't the source of godhood nor are its denizens gods in their own right. Demons are ultimately mortal creatures - they can be killed, and permanently so, in their home dimension. Their dimension is accessable to non-denizens as well - it isn't a proverbial heaven or a hell. It just happens to sit on "top" of the physical Warcraft multiverse by virtue of the order of creation.

[Cheapnecrolyte]

While the Nether is dimensionally transcendent from the physical universe it isn't the source of godhood nor are its denizens gods in their own right.

So what is the source of godhood? The godlike titan Azeroth from which the Wild Gods stem from? LOL. Demons are just as much "gods" as Wild Gods are. Wild Gods aren't from an astral dimension that transcends all realities and they can be killed despite having their souls bound to the Emerald Dream.

Demons are ultimately mortal creatures - they can be killed, and permanently so, in their home dimension. Their dimension is accessable to non-denizens as well - it isn't a proverbial heaven or a hell. It just happens to sit on "top" of the physical Warcraft multiverse by virtue of the order of creation.

Umm...yeah...no...canon has once defined demons as immortals AND WHILE Blizzard's employees are now claiming that demons can die, they can't erase the fact that their Encyclopedia established that 1) demons are immortals 2) that those who are immortal have the requirement to be considered gods and 3) the question if one can truly destroy a god has departed the realm of philosophy.

You claim demons are mortal, but they don't even have mortal souls that get whisked away to the Shadowlands.

Warlocks *can* consider themselves to be all those things - my point was that not all Warlocks worship Sargeras. Some Warlocks may not even know Sargeras exists, or even if they aware the demons have a leader they know little to nothing of him. Sargeras doesn't control their access to or knowledge of the Fel - worship of him is not requires to use the Fel or take power from it. As such, Sargeras can't really be considered the god of Fel as the Fel does not derive from him. If "Chronicle Vol. 1" is any guide the relationship is actually that Sargeras (as he is today) is a product of the Fel's influence, not vice-versa.

You need to provide canon proof that suggests and/or ultimately proves that not all warlocks serve or worship a benefactor or god, whether it is Sargeras or not. The eredar are credited as the first warlocks and, as canon has it, the eredar Thal'kiel and his conjurers only gained the ability to summon lesser demons because of a benefactor. Kil'jaeden only became a user of fel magic and a commander of a demonic army because he agreed to serve Sargeras. The first night elves to become satyr warlocks only became satyr warlocks because they served Sargeras. Orc warlocks ultimately exist because of Gul'dan and he only became a warlock because he agreed to serve Kil'jaeden in exchange for power. There is no canon, current source proving that warlocks don't serve or worship a lord or ruler of some sort. There are warlock acolytes who serve the netherlord of the Black Harvest.

Priests and Priestesses of Elune can call down Arcane moonlight, celestial objects in the form of miniature stars, and even beseech Elune for direct intercession. I don't personally consider Elune a "god" per se myself, but she certainly fits the bill closer than Sargeras.

Priests and priestesses of Elune can call down arcane meteors or arcane stars, but can they do that stuff without being priests and priestesses of Elune? Can warlocks call down fel meteors from the astral Nether or the heavens without being priests of an astral goddess of the moon or some other divine body?

Warlocks wield Fel as one of the sources of power in the Warcraft universe, no different from wielding the Arcane, Elemental, Druidic, or Shamanic power. All of these things are more-or-less natural universal wavelengths of energy. They aren't controlled by anything, really; even the Light and the Void can be harnessed and used without the direct approval or permissions of greater beings like the Naaru or the Void Lords.

The point is, warlocks use fel magic and fel magic is "created" as a result of the divine Light and Void that had bled, which means that the divine Light and Void are (or have) things integral to (or a part of) fel magic. The point is, fel magic is technically divine and is used by fel priestesses that serve the godlike titan Sargeras. The point is, warlocks don't necessarily have to use holy magic or shadow magic to be priests. The point is, you are forgetting that "priest" is a term that doesn't have to apply to worshippers of naaru or void lords. Priests are leaders of a belief who lead rituals and acolytes who assist them with said rituals. Of course warlocks can be considered priests in a sense if they have a belief/faith in something and lead rituals in which acolytes assist them.

[Evangeliste]

I do find it odd that Orcs in the regards of Light and Shadow do flip flop something rotten. We can speculate all day based on the lore and such, new and lore but there is probably a significant reason for the developing powers that be as to why.
Chronicles as stated will politely direct an opinion of for it with the ancestry and such involved, in all that wisdom they still choose to not apply it.
I just think it's down to that they don't want every race to be able to play a class.

[Aucald]

So what is the source of godhood? The godlike titan Azeroth from which the Wild Gods stem from? LOL. Demons are just as much "gods" as Wild Gods are. Wild Gods aren't from an astral dimension that transcends all realities and they can be killed despite having their souls bound to the Emerald Dream.

Difficult to say, but in the context of the Warcraft universe as per the most recent canonical information in "Chronicle Vol. 1" we know that the Titans are not gods. This would include Sargeras, the Wild Gods (themselves products of the Titan Azeroth's nascent world-soul), the Keepers, and other such beings. They are called "demigods" of varying power, though.

Umm...yeah...no...canon has once defined demons as immortals AND WHILE Blizzard's employees are now claiming that demons can die, they can't erase the fact that their Encyclopedia established that 1) demons are immortals 2) that those who are immortal have the requirement to be considered gods and 3) the question if one can truly destroy a god has departed the realm of philosophy.

Demons were never truly immortal, and immortality alone is also not the absolute measure of godhood. A demonic being regenerates in the Twisting Nether when it dies but this process can be interrupted and halted by various forms of magic, or completely annulled if you kill the demon in the Nether. The entire host of demons were also enslaved by a being (Sargeras) that was itself not a god as defined by the "Chronicle," which would make them lesser than it (and also not godlike).

You claim demons are mortal, but they don't even have mortal souls that get whisked away to the Shadowlands.

The Twisting Nether is effectively their Shadowlands. They differ from beings in the physical universe only by dint of being able to re-take their forms on death outside of their home dimension. And as stated above this process can be stopped and their souls can be imprisoned by magic, artifacts, and various other means.

You need to provide canon proof that suggests and/or ultimately proves that not all warlocks serve or worship a benefactor or god, whether it is Sargeras or not. The eredar are credited as the first warlocks and, as canon has it, the eredar Thal'kiel and his conjurers only gained the ability to summon lesser demons because of a benefactor. Kil'jaeden only became a user of fel magic and a commander of a demonic army because he agreed to serve Sargeras. The first night elves to become satyr warlocks only became satyr warlocks because they served Sargeras. Orc warlocks ultimately exist because of Gul'dan and he only became a warlock because he agreed to serve Kil'jaeden in exchange for power. There is no canon, current source proving that warlocks don't serve or worship a lord or ruler of some sort. There are warlock acolytes who serve the netherlord of the Black Harvest.

There are many Eredar who likely worship Sargeras as their godlike benefactor - but their worship doesn't elevate Sargeras to godhood. But I highly doubt the scores of Warlocks on Azeroth currently working against the Legion and Sargeras (e.g. the entirety of the Black Harvest and the Warlock Order Hall) worship the Legion's master - they are pitted against him and his army, using the power of the Fel and demonic magic against the demons. Thal'kiel himself didn't worship Sargeras (or at least his biography in the form of the lore surrounding the Warlock artifact that bears his names makes no mention of it) he only communed with Sargeras, a being he had no knowledge of, and gleaned the secrets of Fel and demonic magic from him. Thal'kiel was just Sargeras' proverbial foot in the door before he coerced Kil'jaeden and Archimonde into his forces (and instrumental in plying Archimonde's mind with Sargeras' influence).

Priests and priestesses of Elune can call down arcane meteors or arcane stars, but can they do that stuff without being priests and priestesses of Elune? Can warlocks call down fel meteors from the astral Nether or the heavens without being priests of an astral goddess of the moon or some other divine body?

Yes, and yes. Wielding the Light does not require the blessing of Elune or the Naaru - it can be done by any being physically or mentally capable of channeling and directing those energies. Certain lingering effects of Fel or demonic magic can make that impossible (e.g. the case with Orcs and Broken Draenei) but other than that the energies are entirely accessible. Elune or the Naaru might be able to shut down that conduit themselves, but to my knowledge it's never happened.

The point is, warlocks use fel magic and fel magic is "created" as a result of the divine Light and Void that had bled, which means that the divine Light and Void are (or have) things integral to (or a part of) fel magic. The point is, fel magic is technically divine and is used by fel priestesses that serve the godlike titan Sargeras. The point is, warlocks don't necessarily have to use holy magic or shadow magic to be priests. The point is, you are forgetting that "priest" is a term that doesn't have to apply to worshippers of naaru or void lords. Priests are leaders of a belief who lead rituals and acolytes who assist them with said rituals. Of course warlocks can be considered priests in a sense if they have a belief/faith in something and lead rituals in which acolytes assist them.

I think you are confusing Fel with the substance of the Twisting Nether itself. Fel is created by the willful destruction of life energy - it is a corrupted form of Spirit energy, in a sense, energetic and highly unstable. There is nothing "divine" about the willful destruction of living beings to fuel a caster's desires, and nothing "divine" about the effects of Fel on physical reality or the body and mind of its users. The Fel corrupts anything it touches, and its very proximity is toxic and antithetical to the natural order of life.

There might also be some confusion about semantics here, as when I refer to Priests I am referring to the Priest class within the game's universe unless otherwise stated. Anyone can call themselves a "priest," or can be priestly in terms of their personality or mannerisms. But in the Warcraft universe there is a difference between a priest as a vocation and a Priest as a literal class with its own host of abilities. A Shadow Priest class might even think himself or herself a Warlock in some ways - but unless they are also of the Warlock class (e.g. trained as or by a Warlock) they will not have their abilities. Much the same as a Death Knight receives entirely different training than a Warrior and thus has access to a host of other abilities and vice-versa. They aren't the same things.

[Cheapnecrolyte]

I think you are confusing Fel with the substance of the Twisting Nether itself.

I think you're confused because of the claims of Sean Copeland. Since its inception, fel energy is demonic per Metzen and THAT is what it is even until today. Fel energy is demonic and the two main sources of everything demonic would be fel demons and the place fel demons are from, which is the Nether.

When regarding to real life, energy is something that can't be created or destroyed. This is a fact and the ONLY Blizzard-affiliated person who claimed that fel magic is created by destroying life (as far as I'm aware of) is a seemingly retarded Historian who would - knowingly or otherwise - have you believe that demonologists don't harness their demonic power from the place demons are from.

Like Sean Copeland, you're acting as if warlocks can gain the demonic fel magic without demons. Dude, demons are from an astral dimension that transcends all realities and OF COURSE warlocks can exist without demons IF demons are not from reality and are therefore unreal. Since WC1 until today, warlocks are defined as channelers, being able to channel demonic fire through their bodies even if a demon isn't "summoned", and channelers can be defined as those who speak for nonphysical beings or spirits. I like to think of them as fel shaman being used as soul conduits for demons, channeling the demonic elements of hell or the fel energies of a fel world. In fact, Gul'dan claimed that fel magic is a higher form of shamanism per Volume 2. Of course, Gul'dan was probably a deceiver who lied because he was trained by Kil'jaeden the Deceiver.

Fel is created by the willful destruction of life energy - it is a corrupted form of Spirit energy, in a sense, energetic and highly unstable.

Do you understand the implication and ultimate meaning of your claims? Hypothetically, if fel energy is created, it would be composed of more than one part. And since everything in the Nether and physical universe ultimately exist because of Light and Void, it should be clear that the Light and Void are integral to (or a part of) everything in the Nether and physical universe, including fel magic. Fel magic is technically divine and is used by fel shivarra that serve the godlike titan Sargeras as priestesses who lead his demonic acolytes (the Burning Legion). You can't expect me to believe warlocks can call down fel meteors and their fel energies from the astral Nether without being priests who serve an astral goddess of the moon or whatever god the titans are like.

Anyone can call themselves a "priest," or can be priestly in terms of their personality or mannerisms. But in the Warcraft universe there is a difference between a priest as a vocation and a Priest as a literal class with its own host of abilities.

A priest is a priest. Don't try to complicate such a simplistic matter or distract people from the truth. As a warlock, Gul'dan saw elemental spirits, spread red pox plague, lead a ritual that channeled the Void power of the Dark Star, renamed the Temple of Karabor to the Black Temple, offered people demon blood in a ceremony, named a mountain the Throne of Kil'jaeden, referred to demon lords as benefactors, ritually sacrificed necrolytes, and all that priestly stuff. He didn't do these things as an orc outcast with no magical powers. He did these things because he was a warlock who gained his warlock powers from a demon lord and was essentially a priest who dealt with the technically divine. How are those necrolytes actually "necrolytes" anyways when they're just acolytes who assisted the warlock Gul'dan and his warlock master Kil'jaeden? It's not like Gul'dan was a priest who had acolytes assist him with demonic rituals unless...

A Shadow Priest class might even think himself or herself a Warlock in some ways - but unless they are also of the Warlock class (e.g. trained as or by a Warlock) they will not have their abilities.

You seem to be forgetting that ALL warlocks are defined by the magics they use AND where they get their magics from. You also seem to be forgetting that babies aren't born with mastery over shadow magic. Who teaches those aspiring to be affliction warlocks (the so-called masters of shadow magic)? Shadow magic is a priestly magic per canon and it is used by priests, so do priests teach those aspiring to be masters of shadow magic (affliction warlocks)? Can affliction warlocks even use a priestly magic without being priests? How can priests be priests if their Old Gods aren't really gods and actually serve lords known as void lords?

You are inferring that warlocks aren't priests based on the faulty premise that they don't serve demon lords and the faulty premise that they don't use a technically divine magic such as shadow magic. You are utterly incapable of presenting me with any canon proof proving that warlocks don't serve or worship demon lords or Sargeras. In fact, vanilla establishes that warlocks have demon masters.

Demons were never truly immortal

Canon states demons are immortal and there is no canon source stating they aren't. You're just running around circles and ignoring what I stated earlier: While Blizzard's employees are now claiming that demons can die, they can't erase the fact that their encyclopedia establishes that demons have the requirements to be considered gods and that the question if one can destroy a god has departed the realm of philosophy. We can argue if demons are gods or not all night, but if you get frustrated, it's ultimately because you're ignoring what Blizzard did here.

A demonic being regenerates in the Twisting Nether when it dies but this process can be interrupted and halted by various forms of magic, or completely annulled if you kill the demon in the Nether. The entire host of demons were also enslaved by a being (Sargeras) that was itself not a god as defined by the "Chronicle," which would make them lesser than it (and also not godlike).

1) I doubt Sargeras counts as a titan anymore since his world-soul was made lesser by fel fire and essentially became a non-existent walking contradiction when this titan was infused with the disorder-aligned magic that is the opposite of the titans' magic and created a disorder-aligned army. Perhaps Sargeras became a true god when he transcended to the Nether and now represents both order and disorder.

2) The titans are godlike beings and so there must be a god that they are like.

They differ from beings in the physical universe only by dint of being able to re-take their forms on death outside of their home dimension. And as stated above this process can be stopped and their souls can be imprisoned by magic, artifacts, and various other means.

1) So the infernals are essentially liches but instead of being composed of skeletal bones are composed of rocks? You know, while rocks and skeletal bones may not be undead, their souls would be undead because they were disembodied then attached to constructs constructed with things that aren't even living.

2) So the felguard of Sargeras' Burning Crusade are essentially burning crusaders with a burning hatred of void lords and have souls tethered to demonic weap...the Nether? You know, felguard are just as bloodthirsty and soulless as orcs that drink fel blood and have their souls "owned" or "stolen" by the Burning Legion. If felguard are living, do they gradually become undead like living death knights that have their souls tethered to demonic runeblades? You'd presume fel warriors are just as evil and soulless as living death knights who had their souls stolen from demonic runeblades and are dying from heat death or starvation because they exist in burning hell worlds devoid of life. Of course, the claim that demons can die is questionable because they're from an astral dimension and wouldn't be alive in the first place. I wonder how demons can survive in those burning hell worlds when they're born as babies. Now, demons may not have actually been born, but I'm not the one responsible for idiot shmucks who are acting as if demons are living creations that can be reborn and that warlocks aren't necromancers who use the magic of an army that seeks to bring all living beings to a state of oblivion, whether it's called the Burning Legion - Scourge of a Thousand Worlds - or the Scourge of Just One World.

I highly doubt the scores of Warlocks on Azeroth currently working against the Legion and Sargeras (e.g. the entirety of the Black Harvest and the Warlock Order Hall) worship the Legion's master - they are pitted against him and his army, using the power of the Fel and demonic magic against the demons. Thal'kiel himself didn't worship Sargeras (or at least his biography in the form of the lore surrounding the Warlock artifact that bears his names makes no mention of it) he only communed with Sargeras, a being he had no knowledge of, and gleaned the secrets of Fel and demonic magic from him. Thal'kiel was just Sargeras' proverbial foot in the door before he coerced Kil'jaeden and Archimonde into his forces (and instrumental in plying Archimonde's mind with Sargeras' influence).

I'm still waiting for you to provide a canon source proving that warlocks can exist without having to serve a benefactor or make a sacrificial offering to demons in exchange for demonic magic. You can claim warlocks can exist without being servants who serve a benefactor, but ALL warlocks are defined by the first warlock.

What is a warlock? A master of demons? Per Volume 2, Gul'dan only became a warlock because he agreed to serve the demon lord Kil'jaeden the Deceiver in exchange for power. This isn't World of Deceivers where the orc warlocks of Draenor don't deceive you so that you don't believe they're servants who deceive others on behalf of Kil'jaeden the Deceiver. If the first orc warlock became a warlock because he agreed to serve a demon in exchange for power, ALL orc warlocks are defined by that shadow pact BECAUSE ALL orc warlocks are defined by the first orc warlock and his history. It's not like the fel practices of Draenor's orc warlocks stem from someone who gained fel magic without a demon that serves Sargeras. It's not like the fel practices of Draenor's orc warlocks stem from an order-aligned astral goddess of the moon that would have absolute power over all astral beings from an astral dimension.

Now, perhaps the orc warlocks of Draenor are ultimately irrelevant to Azeroth? Perhaps the orc warlocks of Draenor are fundamentally different from the warlocks of the godlike titan Azeroth?

When regarding to WoW, Azeroth was first invaded by fel demons and their fel energies when Azshara and her Highborne summoned them because of Sargeras. Some of the Highborne turned into satyrs and despite being masters of fel magic, the satyr warlocks STILL serve Sargeras. They ULTIMATELY exist because of Sargeras. You can claim the asinine, which is that warlocks can exist without Sargeras or that warlocks don't need to serve the Legion, but they only exist because people agreed to serve him. They ultimately gained their power as a warlock from him or his demons in exchange for servitude.

As I've told you, provide a canon source proving that warlocks don't need to serve a lord. If warlocks can use fel magic without being servants who serve Kil'jaeden the Deceiver, that's splendid...I don't really care....I just want proof that they can. And no, orc warlocks presented as good people who tell the truth in-game don't count because, as we all should know, orc warlocks are deceivers who ultimately got their arts from Kil'jaeden the Deceiver. They may present a lie as the truth in-game and pretend to be demon-haters, so how the hell do we know if they're actually deceiving others for their demon overlord Kil'jaeden the Deceiver?

[Deleted]

I think the main difference is that warlocks refuse to be pawns of any force and instead seek the enslave them. Priests "transcend" ideas of power and servitude and believe to become one with the light or shadow (or balance of these). Remember that Gul'dan ultimately server Kil'jaeden only to the point where he thought he can plunder the knowledge from Tomb of Sargeras for himself. Kil'Jaeden's loyalty to Sargeras is very questionable and it's very much implied he's not really fond of Sargy outside of getting power from him.

Still these are different classes that exist in the game with different mechanics. And lorewise orcs were pretty priestly before becoming warlocks or even shaman. I personally love the idea of an insane orc in shadowform sprouting tentacles and shooting apparitions out of his body. And no annoying pet that keeps disappearing. AND MELTING FACES.

[Polybius]

Of course you don't agree and that's because you consistently fail to understand what warlocks are about. You know, babies and even the godlike titans aren't born with demonic knowledge and mastery over fel demons and their fel magics. So you shouldn't expect me to believe that warlocks themselves are masters of fel demons and their demonic fel magics. If anything, eredar warlocks are priests who serve Sargeras as leaders who lead his demonic acolytes with rituals in which demons are summoned and controlled. If anything, satyr warlocks - despite being masters of fel magic - serve Sargeras as leaders who command an army of demonic acolytes.



Fel magic is the magic of a fel army of fel demons from an astral dimension that transcends all realities. If Elune can't control and/or restrict the usage of fel meteors from the astral Nether despite being the astral goddess of the moon, you can't expect me to believe warlocks are the masters of fel meteors and fel magics. Demonologists must be ultra gods if they can rain brimstone and fire from the heavens.

You see, you would act as if Sargeras isn't the God of Fel or act as if the fel demons that serve Sargeras aren't gods (even though they do indeed have the requirement to be considered gods), but then act as if warlocks can wield fel magic just fine without being servants of a "higher" power.




Oh Aucard....don't you know that Blizzard deals with timey wimey nonsense? Sargeras could have transformed into a walking contradiction when this titan became infused with fel magic - the opposite magic of the titans' arcane magic - and created an army that oppose the very thing that he - as a titan - represented. Sargeras could have transcended reality when he went to the Nether, essentially becoming some unreal god that no longer exists in reality, then boom boom pow created a fel army of demons and their fel magic.




Warlocks tap into the fel magic of fel meteors that rain from the heavens. Their fel magic ultimately exists because of the divine Light and Void, which ultimately means the divine Light and Void are - or have - something integral to (or a part of) fel magic. Fel magic is technically divine, used by the fel priestesses of Sargeras who yap about the destiny of all mortals.



Tell me more about how warlocks can wield a technically divine magic resulting from the divine Light and Void without being diviners who divine information from the God of Fel and Flame. You know the outstanding trait of warlocks is their fel vision into the future or their ability to "command" all-seeing observers from an astral dimension that transcends all realities.

Also:

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Felsworn_Soulpriest

^There is your orc priest

Priests can't pull out demons. They look into the Light or the Void and not the Twisting Nether.

Notice how the orc is "felsworn" and its last name combines soul and priest? They have nothing to do with traditional priests, they've abandoned the light in favor of fel, hence why the npc only uses Warlock abilities. The same can be said about shadowmages, they are not mages, but something entirely different (they are priests, we know actual mages aren't priests) considering their prefix and sets of abilities.

Ultimately, Warlocks don't weave the light. They weave fel and shadow magic, which are purposely shown separately in the Chronicle cosmic chart. As a comparison, Demon Hunters are not Paladins, nor are Death Knights the Shadow Priest or Warlock.

[derpkitteh]

I think you are confusing Fel with the substance of the Twisting Nether itself. Fel is created by the willful destruction of life energy - it is a corrupted form of Spirit energy, in a sense, energetic and highly unstable. There is nothing "divine" about the willful destruction of living beings to fuel a caster's desires, and nothing "divine" about the effects of Fel on physical reality or the body and mind of its users. The Fel corrupts anything it touches, and its very proximity is toxic and antithetical to the natural order of life.

There might also be some confusion about semantics here, as when I refer to Priests I am referring to the Priest class within the game's universe unless otherwise stated. Anyone can call themselves a "priest," or can be priestly in terms of their personality or mannerisms. But in the Warcraft universe there is a difference between a priest as a vocation and a Priest as a literal class with its own host of abilities. A Shadow Priest class might even think himself or herself a Warlock in some ways - but unless they are also of the Warlock class (e.g. trained as or by a Warlock) they will not have their abilities. Much the same as a Death Knight receives entirely different training than a Warrior and thus has access to a host of other abilities and vice-versa. They aren't the same things.

he constantly ascribes real life religious ideals to wow demons and magic. biblical demons are former angels, and as such their species could be classed as divine.

you can't just will real life religious ideals into a fictional universe. demon just doesn't mean the same thing in wow as it does in the abrahamic faiths. he just can't grasp the concept that they're different and that's his own problem.

[Cheapnecrolyte]

he constantly ascribes real life religious ideals to wow demons and magic. biblical demons are former angels, and as such their species could be classed as divine.

you can't just will real life religious ideals into a fictional universe. demon just doesn't mean the same thing in wow as it does in the abrahamic faiths. he just can't grasp the concept that they're different and that's his own problem.

Aww, someone's still salty because I called her out for her nonsense. And by the way, I'm not ascribing real life religious ideals to wow demons. I'm claiming they're divine because they are just as much products of divine Light and Void as naaru, which means that Light and Void must have something integrated to (or a part of) demons. Common sense derp derp

Priests can't pull out demons.

So the divine Light and Void they use are pigeonholed despite being divine? Interesting.

Ultimately, Warlocks don't weave the light. They weave fel and shadow magic, which are purposely shown separately in the Chronicle cosmic chart. As a comparison, Demon Hunters are not Paladins, nor are Death Knights the Shadow Priest or Warlock.

Ultimately, shadow priests don't weave the Light because a shadow priests who uses both Light and avoid would be a discipline priests. Warlocks use shadow magic and conduct rituals in which acolytes assist them. Seem to be priests of some sort to me and anyone with common sense. Perhaps warlocks can be practitioners of the warlockian beliefs, use shadow magic, and conduct rituals with the assistance of acolytes without being priests?