Is Legion the MOST Alt-Friendly Expansion Yet?

[Soeroah]

Right. The more there is to do the more you have to do. That doesn't stop the fact that towards the end of the expansion if will be way easier then it is right now to do all of those things. It is still alt friendly. There may be more you have to do then other expansions but that doesn't translate to being alt unfriendly because you always had to do stuff on alts to get stuff. For example tier drops. You had to do the raid on that class and get that token/tier to drop in order to "do everything on an alt".

Blizzard has already said that appearances will not be legion only. They have said that eventually everyone will get the 7.2 challenge appearances because the encounters do not scale. Artifacts are "legion only". And look at the hidden appearances for an example of what Blizzard could do. They reduced the requirements needed to unlock the variants because of the new challenge appearances.

That is making it friendly for alts to unlock all of those.

Source for them saying you can earn artifact transmog after Legion for non-artifacts, please?

[G3istly]

Source for them saying you can earn artifact transmog after Legion for non-artifacts, please?

You won't be able to. In fact, they've already stated that Artifact Weapons are going away at the end of Legion. Basically if you don't earn all the appearances and color variants now for every class, you'll never be able to in the next expansion.

[Soeroah]

You won't be able to. In fact, they've already stated that Artifact Weapons are going away at the end of Legion. Basically if you don't earn all the appearances and color variants now for every class, you'll never be able to in the next expansion.

That's my fear, but the latest Blizzard statement I've seen on the topic was they hadn't decided.

[Relapses]

I wasn't talking about you saying you only play the game to raid. You said you only do raiding. Only doing something means you only do that thing. Why are you confused on what to tell me for taking what you say at face value? If you don't use the proper words that isn't my fault.

You are being pedantic simply to support a rather shitty argument. I did not need to support my first statement with an explanation that I grind AP to raid since there isn't a player in the universe who currently raids without grinding AP. To pretend such a thing even exists is borderline insanity.

I haven't misinterpreted or presumed anything about your first post.

Here are the very first words you responded to me with:

If you are casually playing, and it sounds like that is what your alt would be, then you don't need legendary RNG to play.

I corrected you by saying that I raid. Everything that has transpired from here is because you believe I should have been more specific when I mentioned that I raid. This entire (rather pointless) exchange has been predicated by your misinterpretation of what I meant in my original statement. I shouldn't have to go back and add qualifiers to what I said since you were the one who originally took it upon yourself to presume I was speaking about casual play. I have since admitted that yes, in terms of casual play you're entirely correct. But in terms of how I enjoy the game, Legion has turned me off. And that's exactly what I said originally.

[G3istly]

That's my fear, but the latest Blizzard statement I've seen on the topic was they hadn't decided.

If I'm not mistaken that was about something else but then again, it's hard to keep up with Blizzard's inconsistency these days.

[Arbiter]

Stop cherry picking. In regards to collecting everything, even for alts, then at the end of an expansion is a 100% valid point. Why do you think it isn't? We will have max AK catchup on our alts. Blizzard could have changed appearance variants easier like they did for hidden ones with 7.2 launch. And various other things that make it friendly to collect things on alts.

Cherry picking? You've done nothing but that with people here.

It's not valid. 100% not. Why? Because for starters this isn't the end of the expansion. Who the fuck cares if it's alt friendly at the end? Now is the only relevant information. I can't do anything now that you're talking about for the end so it doesn't matter. Not everyone here just wants to level alts to 110 and just want to get max traits just to sit around and say they did it. We want it for the raids we're doing now.

You are literally countering arguments of why people don't want alts at the moment by saying that if they wait for a year then it'll be much friendlier. That's dumb as shit and it's the opposite of alt friendly.

[rhorle]

Source for them saying you can earn artifact transmog after Legion for non-artifacts, please?

I didn't say they said you can earn for non-artifacts. Artifacts are going away for after legion, but they are not removing artifacts from the game. If they did that then they would have re-do the entire legion leveling process because there are no weapon drops for leveling characters. They will likely implement a scaling block. Where when you hit 111 they stop working at all. They just won't be a part of the next expansion.

To answer your question though they have stated numerous times that they want to find a way to carry appearances over into future expansions including the different druid forms. They haven't announced specifics yet. To answer what your question would be if it was accurate to what they said. I can't provide a source because I remembered wrong.

They have only said that they haven't made a determination on Balance of Power's appearance. But it, and the problem of alts in regards to it, is discussed a lot between the developers. That said though they haven't said anything in regards to hidden and challenge artifact appearances. Those have all indication of not being removed from the game. Balance of power is one seen as a "prestigious" award like the MoP and WoD legendaries. However by argus the requirements shouldn't be to bad for alts to be run through even if it is just for that.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...ge=38#post-746
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I corrected you by saying that I raid..

And I responded telling you that you don't need legendaries to raid. You never said that your alt would be a bleeding edge raider and thus have them required. An alt a week old with 37 traits can raid Nighthold Heroic. Legendaries are not required so there was nothing for you to correct. It might be a personal requirement that any raiding done with out a legendary sucks but that is a personal problem. One I did not touch despite you saying many times I am trying to tell you what you can and can not enjoy.

Raiding can be enjoyable with out legendaries even if you like to push the boundaries of your character. That is true for a main as well as an alt. It is not BIS or doesn't exist. There is plenty in between.

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It's not valid. 100% not. Why? Because for starters this isn't the end of the expansion. Who the fuck cares if it's alt friendly at the end? Now is the only relevant information. I can't do anything now that you're talking about for the end so it doesn't matter. Not everyone here just wants to level alts to 110 and just want to get max traits just to sit around and say they did it. We want it for the raids we're doing now.

You are cherry picking because you are taking a response to something specific (collection of cosmetic pets and toys) as a response to everything. The collection of pets and toys for max 7.2 traits will be infinitely easier at the end of the expansion. Why? Because four or five AP tokens with AK for the next patch will get you past the 7.2 max trait mark and earn you those pets and toys.

That isn't valid? That if you are only going for those pets and toys that you wait? That is the only part that I said waiting to the end of expansion in regards to alt friendliness. You don't need those pets and toys now. It isn't a requirement. You won't die in real life if you don't get them this very second. So waiting to make it 1000% easier is a valid answer.

I never said that everyone wants to just level to 110 and wait till end of expansion to get max traits. This is why you are cherry picking and only reading what you want to instead of what is posted and the context of why it is posted. I have never literally countered arguments by telling them to wait a year. I countered an argument by saying that 7.2 max trait pets and toys isn't an issue because they will be super easy in a year. That is one specific complaint. Not every single complaint. It might be hard for some to follow.

[bufferunderrun]

legendaries not only improve numbers but most of the time improve the gameplay, the rotation, so indipendently from what content you play a spac could feel clunky without any legs (and thus you may decide that is not for you) but change drastically with 2 legs and become really fun, you guys always consider only numbers.

[Relapses]

Raiding can be enjoyable with out legendaries even if you like to push the boundaries of your character. That is true for a main as well as an alt. It is not BIS or doesn't exist. There is plenty in between.

Mother of fucking Christ, dude, would you get off this already? I'm not arguing with you whether or not that's correct. I'm saying that for me, it isn't. And for the purpose of discussions like this, you shouldn't presume everybody is happy playing their alt at whatever arbitrary level you deem adequate. This is almost verbatim what I said originally yet you keep meandering pointlessly about what you feel is appropriate. You do not get to speak on behalf of all players, please stop pretending like you do.

[Biscuitninja]

I think depending on what you are going for this is the least Alt Friendly if you are trying to compete on your characters. There are a ton of things you have to do everyday just to keep up with one character. While you may be able to level and gear up an alt pretty quickly...but even maxing multiple specs on ONE toon is impossible with the AP system. Sure you can get them all to 36 points so they are not terrible but how many people play to just be not terrible?

No with the resource requirements and AP requirements its next to impossible to max out every class...past xpacs you could change classes get a few good items and be up to par with the rest of the DPS. Show up in a raid without two good legendaries and a lower weapon this xpac...you will be blown away on the meters.

[Jester Joe]

Don't think OP is refering to alt-friendly in starting to hardcore raid. You can casually raid with alts without doing all of the above.

Nothing about Class Hall Campaign and relics is "hardcore". That's the basics.

Also then WoD would be the most alt friendly, since heroics were easy gear after a month or two, and you didn't need to do anything for reps or anything.

[ablib]

Every expansion from Cata onward has been less unfriendly since the last. I'd say Wrath and possibly Cata were most alt friendly. Cata slightly less so, just because of 5 more levels than Wrath to get to, to get to max level.

[Shakou]

I have 5 toons, all 4 of my mains fairly decently up to speed, I lvl'd all of them pre 7.2 (all but 1 before 7.1). This is not an alt friendly expansion. I just simply had more free time because I wasn't raiding so hardcore on my main. Different story now. Maintaining an alt (a single alt) not so bad, maintaining multiples? Nah not worth it, unless you really wanna switch. It's far too time consuming to do everything you need to do to keep them going strong. Having alts is supposed to support your main anyways. Do it for the passive gold y'all.

[ablib]

What I did in Cata to get a fresh alt up to speed:

"Oh, we need a rogue? I have an 85 rogue that's in greens, let me log on him real fast."

<collect all the unused loot that night>

"Ok, my rogue is awesome now, woo."

But yeah, Legion is just sooooo alt-friendly.

This is the best explanation for why this is a troll thread. That was literally all you did back then. Plus, to get flying you just went to a trainer.

[rhorle]

This is almost verbatim what I said originally yet you keep meandering pointlessly about what you feel is appropriate. You do not get to speak on behalf of all players, please stop pretending like you do.

I am not speaking on behalf of all players. You keep creating things and claiming I've done it. The point is that is felt and what is perceived does not always align with what actually is. That is part of the point that this thread is trying to get across. That there is a problem that isn't related to the game play but to the players themselves. But they'll attribute it to the game being X when it is really the player being X.

There is nothing inherently wrong with playing how you want to play. But there is something wrong with projecting how you view things onto the game at large. You are in a way arguing with me whether or not raiding can be enjoyable with out legendaries. Because I've never singled your personal enjoyment or experience in my statements but you have taken it to be personally direct at you. You can't now claim otherwise when you were commenting on the game being alt unfriendly. The game isn't but the way players approach the game can be. There is a distinction between those two concepts that you have failed to grasp or at the very least have failed to understand over the course of our discussion.

And for the last time I've never said that for you it wasn't. I've said that for the game it isn't and your view isn't accurate for the game play. That in no way is saying you can't have your view, or are wrong for having your view. Or for playing exactly as you want. No game should ever be designed around the limitation players impose upon the game.

[Relapses]

I am not speaking on behalf of all players. You keep creating things and claiming I've done it. The point is that is felt and what is perceived does not always align with what actually is. That is part of the point that this thread is trying to get across. That there is a problem that isn't related to the game play but to the players themselves. But they'll attribute it to the game being X when it is really the player being X.

There is nothing inherently wrong with playing how you want to play. But there is something wrong with projecting how you view things onto the game at large. You are in a way arguing with me whether or not raiding can be enjoyable with out legendaries. Because I've never singled your personal enjoyment or experience in my statements but you have taken it to be personally direct at you. You can't now claim otherwise when you were commenting on the game being alt unfriendly. The game isn't but the way players approach the game can be. There is a distinction between those two concepts that you have failed to grasp or at the very least have failed to understand over the course of our discussion.

And for the last time I've never said that for you it wasn't. I've said that for the game it isn't and your view isn't accurate for the game play. That in no way is saying you can't have your view, or are wrong for having your view. Or for playing exactly as you want. No game should ever be designed around the limitation players impose upon the game.

You're not understanding me at all. I suggest you go back and re-read my replies to you. None of what you wrote has anything to do with my original reply in this thread.

[DeicideUH]

What exactly are you looking for in your alt? Whats the goal? If you want it to be as powerful as your main, then logic would dictate that you would need to spend similar amounts of time to gear it up as your main. But wait, thats not the case.

Never said I wanted my alts to be as powerful as my main.
But in the past, I could reach max level, get enough gear to be able to do LFR/Random BGs and have fun with them now and then.
If for some reason I later decided to switch mains, I just needed to improve on gear.

While it's not hard to reach 110 and get gear now, there are other aspects of "leveling" introduced: Artifact Power and Class Halls. Because of that, you can't really put your main away for some time, you need to keep playing him constantly, and that takes away time that, in past expansion, I'd be dedicating to alts. More than that, when I reach 110 with an alt, there's still all the Artifact leveling left to do, which also takes time from leveling another alt.

I don't know how much free time you have, nor if you still try to keep your main powered (as being left behind reduces your relative power in group content) once you start leveling alts, but for me it feels way more tiresome than in past expansions.

[Mormolyce]

Legion has content? Since when?

Are you kidding? I have time for hardly any of it, and I don't even raid anymore.

But whatever, we have this same argument every expansion.

[Brewhan]

Yes it is. I agree 7.1 was not, but 7.1.5 encouraged alts by AP-capping our mains, and 7.2 has crazy catch-up mechanics for alts. My alts with literally 2% of the days played of my main are within two AKs and maybe 3 traits of my main. They are within 10 item-levels. In 1/50th of the time. That's crazy.

agreed I have 903 ilvl main pally with around 34 days /played at 110 and 45 traits or so . My 5th alt is like 3 days /played 895+ ilvl and 3 traits away from being the same. Of course my main is exalted with all reps and my alt hasn't even done suramar yet but that doesn't really matter. It's great on one hand and makes my question my life choices and why I went so hard in the launch of legion.

[rhorle]

You're not understanding me at all. I suggest you go back and re-read my replies to you. None of what you wrote has anything to do with my original reply in this thread.

WoD and MoP felt more "alt-friendly" because the main thing you had to worry about was the Legendary questline. Now we have Legendary RNG, time gates, Suramar quest lines, BoP quest lines, Order Hall campaigns and a litany of other bullshit you never had to worry about before. I get some people like this type of content but it just isn't my cup of tea.

It seems pretty clear that I have been talking about the difference between what you see the game as, and what the game actually is. What I've wrote has everything to do with it and I've shown nothing but understanding you. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I don't understand you. You are under the impression that because you said it isn't your cup of tea that means anything else you said can't be discussed.

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While it's not hard to reach 110 and get gear now, there are other aspects of "leveling" introduced: Artifact Power and Class Halls. Because of that, you can't really put your main away for some time, you need to keep playing him constantly, and that takes away time that, in past expansion, I'd be dedicating to alts. More than that, when I reach 110 with an alt, there's still all the Artifact leveling left to do, which also takes time from leveling another alt.

Artifact power is the only thing that is an issue. Class halls have an end to their content and their missions are not required for a main. Artifact leveling in 7.2 for a fresh alt isn't cumbersome. You learn the BoA AK your main bought, pay the resources for the AK on your alt, then quickly reach 36 traits and be only slight behind those that were already 110 on the day of the patch.

As long as you keep up your alts AK, or buy the book if your main is more then 5 levels ahead of your alt, switching an alt to be your main won't be an issue for long. Yes you will be behind but you won't be that far behind because of focusing AP gain on your new main. From a reddit post I linked to earlier https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...tters_and_you/

There really isn't a big harm in spending time on an alt because of the way Blizzard is doing AK since 7.2.

4: So what about the short-term?

Short-term, you'll want to reach Concordance before Tomb. However, that's "only" 2.2B AP. To put that into perspective, Tomb is supposed to hit around AK43; At that point, a single M+10 cache and a NH heroic clear will grant you well over 700M AP (or around 1/3 of the total required for concordance). No world quests, no nothing - 1/3 of the way just by a heroic raid and a M+10 that everyone should want to do anyway. Getting to 57-58 before tomb will be easy; It'll require the same effort as going 40-41 each level if you take it slow. But slacking right now doesn't really matter, because the catch up is so freaking extreme.

5: And long term?

I think it's safe to say that the standard, when Ak50 has been reached, will be 65-70 traits. Anything beyond that is an INSANE grind for almost no gains. Likewise, you're safe to go put AP into offspecs and secondary specs right now, or if you want, when you reach 52 for concordance in a months time; The catch up before tomb will be so massive that the 2B AP you put in a secondary weapon can be grinded back in a day or two on the release-week of tomb, and you'll have competent offspecs to boot. You're also better off keeping an alt well geared and traited, rather than spending all your time on your main, because the catch up simply makes any farm you're doing right now super fucking irrelevant.