They are doing it!

[SinR]

I'm curious if Belt and Bracers/COF is going to be BIS come 7.2.5

[jaimelannister]

I'm curious if Belt and Bracers/COF is going to be BIS come 7.2.5

Won't know until we find out how much the shoulders increase the proc.

[Mavick]

All of this is entirely irrelevant because you're comparing two specs that do not exist anymore. BM was never going to be better in TOV/EN than MM was, for a few very simple reasons that can be listed as:

1: BM didn't have their OP legendary yet (shoulders were added in 7.1.5).

2: Specs were nerfed and buffed both in 7.1.5 and 7.2, giving us the current balance.

If you're seriously arguing that the only reason BM lagged behind MM in EN/TOV was because BM didn't gain power as quickly as MM due to needing a higher artifact level to be "done" with major DPS traits, you're delusional. It had everything to do with the sidewinders nerf for MM, and the huge buffs BM received in 7.1.5 that balance "shifted" - and this was well after TOV was relevant. Remember, some people went into EN with artifacts at level 23-24; to be "done" with the BM artifact, you needed 26 traits (or 29 if you count in the 10% cobra shot damage). For MM, this was firmly at 28 traits (as trait 24-28 was 3x trueshot reduction and +5 focus on sidewinders). Sure, you got your third golden at 24 versus 26 for BM, but that's something that literally only mattered for super-early emerald nightmare; An instance that we hopefully can all agree favored MM heavily, golden trait or not (remember, the third golden for MM is a super small singletarget buff, and only decent on AOE).

The whole "BM more reliant on higher artifact"-meme is stupid as fuck because nobody went into trial of valor with less than 30 traits anyway unless they didn't care about progression at all (in which case, this whole debate is irrelevant) - a point where both MM and BM only have "utility" traits left up until the paragon trait. It wasn't because of a slow power-growth BM got left in the dust; MM was simply mechanically and output-wise superior to BM for EN+TOV, and the balancing patch in 7.1.5 + new legendaries giving BM a shitton more power while taking away some of MM's niche (spread cleave went byebye) put them on a more even footing.

You're forgetting that both the BM belt and ring were later nerfed, prior to that they were on about as OP equal footing as the shoulders currently are. And I raided with a BM hunter who had both, there was no denying that on every fight other than Ilg (due to just pure strat decisions that allowed MM to cleave because they couldn't do anything else) BM was right there with us about midway through once people finished out their talents.

And the only thing OP about Sidewinders is that it let us hit everything in a 10 mile radius. Take away the ability to hit many targets and MM was always average, or less than.

[Dracodraco]

You're forgetting that both the BM belt and ring were later nerfed, prior to that they were on about as OP equal footing as the shoulders currently are. And I raided with a BM hunter who had both, there was no denying that on every fight other than Ilg (due to just pure strat decisions that allowed MM to cleave because they couldn't do anything else) BM was right there with us about midway through once people finished out their talents.

And the only thing OP about Sidewinders is that it let us hit everything in a 10 mile radius. Take away the ability to hit many targets and MM was always average, or less than.

The same that MM's boots were also nerfed in the same patch, and the belt was indirectly nerfed by nerfing sidewinders :thinking:. Wonder if that had an equal impact on MM as it did BM? Naw, couldn't be.

As for the sidewinders comment, allow me to say: "Fucking duh". That's the entire point of sidewinders. Good when they hit everything, making the spec super good on most fights in EN. It's super simple. That's like saying "Take Bestial fury away and BM's burst becomes a lot smaller". Obviously true, but why on earth does it matter? It was a thing. You can't just say "yea, but if it hadn't done X, it wouldn't have been OP!". It DID do X.

[Mavick]

The same that MM's boots were also nerfed in the same patch, and the belt was indirectly nerfed by nerfing sidewinders :thinking:. Wonder if that had an equal impact on MM as it did BM? Naw, couldn't be.

As for the sidewinders comment, allow me to say: "Fucking duh". That's the entire point of sidewinders. Good when they hit everything, making the spec super good on most fights in EN. It's super simple. That's like saying "Take Bestial fury away and BM's burst becomes a lot smaller". Obviously true, but why on earth does it matter? It was a thing. You can't just say "yea, but if it hadn't done X, it wouldn't have been OP!". It DID do X.

It's pretty ridiculous to attempt to compare a .2 sec change to TS reduction to removing 5% damage to pets and 5% focus cost reduction during BW......

And you're missing my point, even with old sidewinders but putting both specs in bis leg's and having their full non-paragon traits (which were attainable towards the end of EN, and with paragon going into ToV) MM wasn't clearly beating the shit out of BM by any stretch of the imagination, except on a couple fights that honestly could have been managed even without a single MM hunter in raid. It only *seemed* that way because 75% of the hunter community (good and bad) was playing it because of the hand Blizzard dealt us at the start.

[Emerald Archer]

It's pretty ridiculous to attempt to compare a .2 sec change to TS reduction to removing 5% damage to pets and 5% focus cost reduction during BW......

And you're missing my point, even with old sidewinders but putting both specs in bis leg's and having their full non-paragon traits (which were attainable towards the end of EN, and with paragon going into ToV) MM wasn't clearly beating the shit out of BM by any stretch of the imagination, except on a couple fights that honestly could have been managed even without a single MM hunter in raid. It only *seemed* that way because 75% of the hunter community (good and bad) was playing it because of the hand Blizzard dealt us at the start.

2 things,

Firstly, the nerf to boots was actually pretty large, because what came with that was also a nerf to the reduction traits. The boots nerf and traits nerf, stopped an extra trueshot on a lot of fights.

and secondly, I'm starting to think you were just a trash hunter and the bm hunter in your guild was good. Because statstically, the top bm hunters, with the best legendaries, and the same number of traits, vs the mm hunters in the same shoes, did less than MM.

So pretty sure you were just bad.

I have proof about what I'm saying, whether you choose to believe facts or not, where's your facts?

[Dracodraco]

It's pretty ridiculous to attempt to compare a .2 sec change to TS reduction to removing 5% damage to pets and 5% focus cost reduction during BW......

And you're missing my point, even with old sidewinders but putting both specs in bis leg's and having their full non-paragon traits (which were attainable towards the end of EN, and with paragon going into ToV) MM wasn't clearly beating the shit out of BM by any stretch of the imagination, except on a couple fights that honestly could have been managed even without a single MM hunter in raid. It only *seemed* that way because 75% of the hunter community (good and bad) was playing it because of the hand Blizzard dealt us at the start.

20% CDR removed versus 25% resource cost reduction removed; Considering how much stronger Trueshot as a cooldown is than BW, I'd say it's probably fair. And that's without you touching the sentinel indirect nerf (while the ring was indirectly buffed - 9% more KC damage means pet damage went up, for example).

That being said, your argument is still silly - you're saying, and I quote:

MM wasn't clearly beating the shit out of BM by any stretch of the imagination, except on a couple fights that honestly could have been managed even without a single MM hunter in raid.

If both specs are equal on every fight apart from a few specific ones (which included some of the hardest this tier; Namely Helya and Cenarius), then clearly, MM is the superior spec, no? There was no fight where BM pulled ahead of MM. At best, they were equal on a fair few fights (such as singletarget encounters, Nythendra/Ursoc/Guarm/Odyn springs to mind), at worst, MM pulled far ahead of BM, making MM the de-facto best spec. It had nothing to do with what the playerbase WAS PLAYING. It had something to do with MM at worst being equal to BM, and at best being far superior.

[Deleted]

Could we take the two last pages of bickering to another thread? It is adding nothing to the topic other than spreading the jealousy over something which players have no control over, AKA buffs and nerfs brought by devs.

[sultangurde]

Could we take the two last pages of bickering to another thread? It is adding nothing to the topic other than spreading the jealousy over something which players have no control over, AKA buffs and nerfs brought by devs.

Agree, stop talking about past, lets start talking about future of both specs. Any ideas what % bonus will shoulders give?

[khazlol]

I'm curious if Belt and Bracers/COF is going to be BIS come 7.2.5

I have a feeling tomb trinkets will make bracers+CoF obsolete over time

[Kirbypro]

2 things,

Firstly, the nerf to boots was actually pretty large, because what came with that was also a nerf to the reduction traits. The boots nerf and traits nerf, stopped an extra trueshot on a lot of fights.

and secondly, I'm starting to think you were just a trash hunter and the bm hunter in your guild was good. Because statstically, the top bm hunters, with the best legendaries, and the same number of traits, vs the mm hunters in the same shoes, did less than MM.

So pretty sure you were just bad.

I have proof about what I'm saying, whether you choose to believe facts or not, where's your facts?

Fact: both MM and BM were a shit show single target in EN and ToV. Pointless to compare rotten apple with a rotten orange.

Cenarius
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10#boss=1877

Guarm
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/12#boss=1962

Fact: BM was better on fights with movement

Odyn
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/12#boss=1958

Fact: MM was better on fights with cleave

People are free to draw their own conclusions.

[Deleted]

I have a feeling tomb trinkets will make bracers+CoF obsolete over time

Maybe not, see bti. Wrists will get 970 ilvl and the trinket will get a chance to proc past 925.

[khazlol]

Maybe not, see bti. Wrists will get 970 ilvl and the trinket will get a chance to proc past 925.

Well it's possible. but i don't think they will frag it up again.

arcano crystal. never forget. never forgive :P

[Deleted]

CoF isnt a dmg on proc or dmg on activation.

It is just a CDR trinket therefore is pretty hard to compare to other trinkets.


Also when ToS will be released, there will be an increase ITLVL on all items so BTI 915++ will be pretty massive


Also dont forget that the new AotW is supposed to reduce GCD by 0.2 so w/o any sim about we dunno if it will be op or not

[Emerald Archer]

CoF isnt a dmg on proc or dmg on activation.

It is just a CDR trinket therefore is pretty hard to compare to other trinkets.


Also when ToS will be released, there will be an increase ITLVL on all items so BTI 915++ will be pretty massive


Also dont forget that the new AotW is supposed to reduce GCD by 0.2 so w/o any sim about we dunno if it will be op or not

That's what makes CoF such a strange trinket, this expansion it really should have been a "Final raid" sort of trinket, because unless it's nerfed, it will be bis for a lot of specs for a long time.

[Deleted]

This is the "main" problem when you play with CDR items.

Why for MM Boots are uber OP more than belt or ring or trinket o gloves? Because you dont give any extra dmg/proc but JUST CDR on CD.
Therefore when you can stack multiple CDR you get a "not visible" buff, it is not like "you get 300% dmg extra" it is just "meh CDR on a spell, what could go wrong?"


And then you get MM Boots nerfed pre NH, tier19 nerf pre NH.


BM is in a different situation because BW isnt a strong CD like TSA, but the chain-combo CDR of DB->BW + Wrist/CoF->AotW still show us how CDR mechanics is pretty OP.

-----

For 7.2.5, well, we need to see how shoulders will be reworked

[Salsa]

Happy it seems they are finally listening to community input; even happier that they realize how useless Hati is and appear to be trying to address it....but....

And now we wait for the huge overkill dmg nerf to go with this...

This. So much this.

I mean it's great that we are all giving each other celebratory over the pants handjobs, but let's not pretend for one second that two weeks into Tomb when we make an appearance at the top of the meters that we won't be hit with Blizzard's "tuning" sledgehammer.

[kaid]

I started my BM hunter after all these initial changes, so how will this help? All ive known is my current build and that has seemed fine so far.

Basically it helps fill any gaps in the rotation and make things more fluid. It lets you control and add to your resource generation especially to get a fight started.

I think enough people liked how the legendary made the spec play eventually they determined probably just best to make that baseline so you don't need to pray to the legendary gods for the right one.

[Mavick]

20% CDR removed versus 25% resource cost reduction removed; Considering how much stronger Trueshot as a cooldown is than BW, I'd say it's probably fair. And that's without you touching the sentinel indirect nerf (while the ring was indirectly buffed - 9% more KC damage means pet damage went up, for example).

That being said, your argument is still silly - you're saying, and I quote:



If both specs are equal on every fight apart from a few specific ones (which included some of the hardest this tier; Namely Helya and Cenarius), then clearly, MM is the superior spec, no? There was no fight where BM pulled ahead of MM. At best, they were equal on a fair few fights (such as singletarget encounters, Nythendra/Ursoc/Guarm/Odyn springs to mind), at worst, MM pulled far ahead of BM, making MM the de-facto best spec. It had nothing to do with what the playerbase WAS PLAYING. It had something to do with MM at worst being equal to BM, and at best being far superior.

The CDR lost is only a thing if you actually lost a use per fight, and I can't think of any fights where you would have due to the fact of more shot usage with a spammable arcane shot opposed to sidewinders, so yeah, it's pretty absurd to continue pushing that point. That being said, I'm not going to get into a drawn out discussion of all the MM changes because frankly I don't give a shit about the spec as clearly Blizzard doesn't either. That's not the point I'm making anyway.

And as far as Helya goes, MM might have showed higher on meters overall due to cleaving small adds, but if you looked at BM parses their actual Helya damage was probably far higher than MM's, even tho lower on meters overall. That doesn't mean MM was better, it just means they were suited to doing 2 different jobs. As I said, only a very shallow minded individual would look at overall damage on logs and see one spec higher and assume that meant it's "the best".

- - - Updated - - -

Could we take the two last pages of bickering to another thread? It is adding nothing to the topic other than spreading the jealousy over something which players have no control over, AKA buffs and nerfs brought by devs.

How about you stop playing moderator and just ignore the posts you don't like. Because repeatedly pointing out you have an issue with me posting my thoughts isn't going to stop me from posting them.

- - - Updated - - -

2 things,

Firstly, the nerf to boots was actually pretty large, because what came with that was also a nerf to the reduction traits. The boots nerf and traits nerf, stopped an extra trueshot on a lot of fights.

and secondly, I'm starting to think you were just a trash hunter and the bm hunter in your guild was good. Because statstically, the top bm hunters, with the best legendaries, and the same number of traits, vs the mm hunters in the same shoes, did less than MM.

So pretty sure you were just bad.

I have proof about what I'm saying, whether you choose to believe facts or not, where's your facts?

You be the judge: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...r/15133703/10/

the BM hunter I referenced: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...r/16253038/10/

[Dracodraco]

And as far as Helya goes, MM might have showed higher on meters overall due to cleaving small adds, but if you looked at BM parses their actual Helya damage was probably far higher than MM's, even tho lower on meters overall. That doesn't mean MM was better, it just means they were suited to doing 2 different jobs. As I said, only a very shallow minded individual would look at overall damage on logs and see one spec higher and assume that meant it's "the best".

I can tell you never did pre-nerf helya from that comment alone. You clearly have no clue what kind of damage was actually wanted on helya (Hint: It wasn't singletarget), in all 3 phases. There's a reason guilds ran 3+ hunters on it if they had them available :^).