German interior minister speaks out in favor of 'Leitkultur' for immigrants

[Hooked]

Germany is done, stick a fork in them. They are too naiive to even fight for their children, they are sick.

[Freighter]

Are there cultures that will not accept changes due to to it being forbidden by a religious text?

There are cultures that will resist change but all cultures change. Resisting only delays change, it doesn't stop it.

[Slant]

As I said in the previous post: Some cultures are inferior, e.g. a culture which wishes to live by unchangeable religious laws would be inferior to German culture.

So, you're not talking "culture" as in art and cultural achievements and more in lifestyle, values and customs?

[Ravenblade]

German culture is superior to many other cultures outside of the Western world.

Including "German culture" itself!

[Kalis]

There are cultures that will resist change but all cultures change. Resisting only delays change, it doesn't stop it.

Do you think that women should have equality in the eyes of the law, for example? If you do, then a culture that does not allow that is inferior to one which does, so my original statement that German culture is superior to many other non-Western cultures holds true.

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So, you're not talking "culture" as in art and cultural achievements and more in lifestyle, values and customs?

It is difficult to measure relative artistic achievement, in some scenarios you will be equal, but overall German culture is superior to many non-Western cultures and it is mainly in customs, values and lifestyle.

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Including "German culture" itself!

I am not clicking that in case it goes to some god awful German pop music. You had Kraftwerk, which was cool, then you inflicted Milli Vanilli on the world, you have not been forgiven.

[Independent voter]

The US has a lot of experience with all kinds of immigrants. First you write off the first generation of immigrants because it's really hard for an adult to adapt to new culture. The second generation is the generation that will adapt.

We have one culture in the US that didn't assimilate well, the Chinese but every other immigrant culture has become pretty much American. I know there are Chinese Americans who have assimilated but you can find Chinese communities where everyone speaks Chinese and the signs are written in Chinese, etc.

American culture is pretty overwhelming though, just look at the most popular TV and movie downloads.

[Freighter]

Do you think that women should have equality in the eyes of the law, for example? If you do, then a culture that does not allow that is inferior to one which does, so my original statement that German culture is superior to many other non-Western cultures holds true.

In your preference maybe.

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The US has a lot of experience with all kinds of immigrants. First you write off the first generation of immigrants because it's really hard for an adult to adapt to new culture. The second generation is the generation that will adapt.

We have one culture in the US that didn't assimilate well, the Chinese but every other immigrant culture has become pretty much American. I know there are Chinese Americans who have assimilated but you can find Chinese communities where everyone speaks Chinese and the signs are written in Chinese, etc.

American culture is pretty overwhelming though, just look at the most popular TV and movie downloads.

USA has severe problems with non-whites though.

[Slant]

It is difficult to measure relative artistic achievement, in some scenarios you will be equal, but overall German culture is superior to many non-Western cultures and it is mainly in customs, values and lifestyle.

I am not clicking that in case it goes to some god awful German pop music. You had Kraftwerk, which was cool, then you inflicted Milli Vanilli on the world, you have not been forgiven.

It's not a difficult achievement to be superior to a culture that lives in mud huts. Yes, Afghanistan et al, I'm talking about you lot.

And since you gave the world our classical composers, we are absolutely allowed one Milli Vanilli misstep. Which we, by the way, immediately rectified with our techno subculture. :P

[Kalis]

In your preference maybe.

Do you think that women should have equality in the eyes of the law? Yes or no? If the answer is yes, then cultures that do not believe that are inferior and so my initial claim is correct.

[Freighter]

Do you think that women should have equality in the eyes of the law? Yes or no? If the answer is yes, then cultures that do not believe that are inferior and so my initial claim is correct.

Inferior to people who have a personal preference that women should have, yes. There is no such thing as objectively inferior in regards to culture as it depends largely what you value.

[Kalis]

It's not a difficult achievement to be superior to a culture that lives in mud huts. Yes, Afghanistan et al, I'm talking about you lot.

The problem is that even when they stop living in shitholes, many keep their inferior culture.

And since you gave the world our classical composers, we are absolutely allowed one Milli Vanilli misstep. Which we, by the way, immediately rectified with our techno subculture. :P

Yours is not as shit as French pop music, but you are still only on a level with Italy. That is nothing to boast about.

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Inferior to people who have a personal preference that women should have, yes. There is no such thing as objectively inferior in regards to culture as it depends largely what you value.

So every culture is equal then?

Cultures that kill homosexuals are equal to those that do not? Cultures that persecute women just for being women are equal to those that do not?

[Freighter]

So every culture is equal then?

Cultures that kill homosexuals are equal to those that do not? Cultures that persecute women just for being women are equal to those that do not?

There are people who think their culture is better than yours, that your culture is inferior because they think you engage in immoral behavior. It's subjective and dependant on what you value, you can't call a culture objectively inferior.

[Slant]

The problem is that even when they stop living in shitholes, many keep their inferior culture.

Yours is not as shit as French pop music, but you are still only on a level with Italy. That is nothing to boast about.

You've got your Liverpool music scene going for you, but that's about it. I wouldn't be too harsh if I was you.

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There are people who think their culture is better than yours, that your culture is inferior because they think you engage in immoral behavior. It's subjective and dependant on what you value, you can't call a culture objectively inferior.

It's pointless to argue with him. The culture of the British Empire will always be superior.

[Kalis]

There are people who think their culture is better than yours, that your culture is inferior because they think you engage in immoral behavior. It's subjective, you can't call a culture objectively inferior.

I can say that a culture which kills people for being homosexuals is objectively inferior to one that does not. My culture does not do that, so my culture is superior to one that does.

[Noradin]

"Opponents also say that such a set core of values would automatically lead to cultural clashes, with a "Leitkultur" being treated as inherently superior to immigrants' native cultures, and that they would therefore be designed to inadvertently limit the spreading of multiculturalism."

Some cultures are superior to others. Preserving the best traits of cultures and jettisoning the lesser traits is how we progress as a species.

"Leitkultur"("culture to be used as a guideline") is an unfortunate choice of words, should have used "Leitwerte"("virtues to be strived for") or something (yes, "leitwerte" is already somewhat taken in other contexts (stock markets), but there "werte" is used in the sense of "price/worth/numerial value"/"shares", not "virtue").
"Grundwerte"("core virtues agreed upon by society; the foundation") is already what their constitution is all about, so taken in context "Leitwerte" would be the sensible thing to ask for, choosing "Leitkultur" instead is populism. It is not completely wrong, but terribly unprecise and undefined. Everyone will come up with their own idea of what it means and get offended when others disagree.

Note: Translations I gave are a description of the meaning of those words as a whole, not a literal tanslation of its parts. They are shortend, not exhaustive, so other people might want to stress other aspects of their meaning.

Edit: Discussions in this thead already show how agreeing about cultures will take for forever and why discussing virtues is much more resonable. In fact some here already use virtues to judge cultures that promote them, just to get back into the mire of comparing the "worth"of artists as a proxy for the "worthiness" of cultures.

[Freighter]

I can say that a culture which kills people for being homosexuals is objectively inferior to one that does not. My culture does not do that, so my culture is superior to one that does.

No, it's subjectively better to you. There is no objectively better in regards to culture as whether a culture is good or bad depends on your subjective values.

[Strangebrew]

There are people who think their culture is better than yours, that your culture is inferior because they think you engage in immoral behavior. It's subjective and dependant on what you value, you can't call a culture objectively inferior.

No, i'm pretty sure you can call a culture that stone homosexuals and torture women for just being women as objectively inferior.

[Kalis]

You've got your Liverpool music scene going for you, but that's about it. I wouldn't be too harsh if I was you.

Manchester and London have produced acts that have conquered the world. Birmingham had Black Sabbath and that was about it, I think. Scotland has produced its fair share too. Wales pulls its weight, Northern Ireland not so much.

If you list all the top music acts from over the last 60 years, then Britain has loads of entries. A Hungarian bloke I know reckons it is due to English lacking gendered word endings, so it makes everything easier to rhyme. No idea if there is any truth in that.

[Freighter]

No, i'm pretty sure you can call a culture that stone homosexuals and torture women for just being women as objectively inferior.

No, it's dependant on your very subjective values thus it can't be measured in objective terms. To many your culture is the one regarded as inferior.

[Granyala]

Critics of the idea of "Leitkultur" argue, however, that among other things it would serve the purpose of limiting immigration by rejecting those who do not succeed in assimilating.

GOOD. Either assimilate (no need for bionic implants^^) or get back to the crapper you came from.
I don't expect much:
-learn our language
-learn and accept our core values (freedom of speech, equality, religions being equal in value, religion having no say in politics)
-adhere to our laws
-try your best to get a job.

I don't think these are unreasonable demands.

Opponents also say that such a set core of values would automatically lead to cultural clashes, with a "Leitkultur" being treated as inherently superior to immigrants' native cultures, and that they would therefore be designed to inadvertently limit the spreading of multiculturalism.

To be blunt: some cultures ARE superior.
Islamic culture is still stuck in the dark ages due to intrusive religious BS, people in power that abuse it and crap education.

Our ancestors fought long and hard for stuff that is so ingrained nowadays, that we never think about it. Don't let overzealous "political correctness" destroy all that.

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No, it's dependant on your very subjective values thus it can't be measured in objective terms. To many your culture is the one regarded as inferior.

You don't understand.
OBJECTIVELY (read: to an outside observer) a culture that kills non conforming members w/o reason is inferior to one that is tolerant.
It doesn't matter what the indoctrinated members of said culture think.

On the same page: a culture that is so liberal and tolerant that it ignores actual dangers to it's members is inferior to one that employs laws which restrict and protect.

Disclaimer: I'm not talking about culture in terms of artwork, food etc. I'm talking about a cultures general societal norms and associated values.