Flying Next Expack

[Low Hanging Fruit]

False. I'm just not interested in hearing Blizzard's words regurgitated for the billionth time. I'm perfectly willing to have a normal discussion with someone who's willing to see reason. But if all a person has to say is the same, tired, boring "Groundeded iz t3h only wayz fer games to hav fun!!!11!1one1!!!" then I'm not interested. And yeah, I'll use the same responses to those kinds of posts.




For the record, I've never called anyone an asshole. Your words, not mine.

But also for the record, usually when I start out talking to a new person I keep it reasonable. I've had a few perfectly normal discussions with people in this very thread. But if I dig a little deeper and see the aforementioned rehashing of the same nonsense, yeah, I'll pick it apart. And if that person isn't willing to see that there are perfectly reasonable and viable alternatives to how flying was implemented, I'll call them out on being narrow-minded. If they take it up a level, then I'll follow(up to a point).

If that seems like I'm being unreasonable, it's because I'm constantly willing to tangle with unreasonable people. Don't confuse the two.



If you consider "winning" to be refusing to even look at points of view other than your own, or just falling back on "Well Blizz said so!" then I don't know what to tell you. Say whatever you want about me, but you can't deny that I at least look at people's arguments before responding. But if you identify yourself as just another mindless Blizzard drone, then that's exactly how I'm going to treat your posts. If people don't like that, then they should maybe think before responding. I guarantee you if they did I wouldn't get into so many arguments.

So to sum all that up that I didnt bother reading past the first 2 lines

Not that this..
..Not that this..
Not that this..

Victory over the obvious comeback forum response. Iced.

[Chrno]

I hope the entire next expansion is indoors, but flight is enabled day 1. That way, we can fly, but everything we have to do is indoors and mounts can't be used.

+1 internets

[-Joker-]

You are either new to these threads or a troll account. But if you are newer you should just realize who you are replying to. He isn't someone interested in discussion or opposing views. He has had the same 5-8 things he has repeated for years and pretty much just parrots them in every thread with the word flying in the title. It always starts off as "hey guys it's cool let's talk" and then boils into "fuck you, ignored, because you're an asshole (aka don't share my view)." After that for some reason I guess keeping threads with the word flying in the title on the first page becomes the priority because that's when the parrot in all of them goes into automatic.

Just sit back and enjoy the show. So much effort for so little gain is how I view this tragedy. Don't let it slip by you. Although I understand the need to engage. Most of us were there one. Won. Then moved on. You will do the same. But thanks for the spice.

I am neither new, nor trolling. I simply prefer to enjoy the game and sub or unsub based on personal preference. I don't just sit around and complain cause Blizz did it THEIR way instead of MINE. Also, when I have a suggestion for Blizz, I follow the appropriate steps to insure it makes it to the right persons or department to be read and acknowledged. It is not my intention to come off as though I am trying to subtly pick a fight. I just figure most people don't know the proper way to suggest changes or offer feedback. It's not in this site's forum.

Seems there are a handful who delve directly into insults. Ironic that one of them is using a sig line that says, "If you have to attack a person instead of what they're saying, then you've already lost the argument." Two posts within 2 pages:

But I wouldn't expect you to be able to see that with your head so far up Blizzard's ass.

Screw it. S-class troll identified and ignored. Can't believe I let you get me so angry.

If nothing else, I'm hopeful the mods will address it. Almost impossible to carry on conversation with people like this in the thread. Anyway, thanks for the input, but I'm not here for the popcorn or the spice. Simply here to silence the whining and offer some constructive suggestions on how to actually get Blizz's attention.

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So to sum all that up that I didnt bother reading past the first 2 lines

Not that this..
..Not that this..
Not that this..

Victory over the obvious comeback forum response. Iced.

Seems like most of the responses are probably given in this manner...


Some people just are not interested in points of view that just happen to coincide 100% with Blizz. They automatically assume we must be trolling.

[Lei]

In the last Q&A Ion was asked how he feels about pathfinder and he said he is pretty happy and he thinks it worked out pretty well, also he thinks they should have added more requirements into part2.

So guess this means pathfinder is here to stay. :/

[Low Hanging Fruit]

I am neither new, nor trolling. I simply prefer to enjoy the game and sub or unsub based on personal preference. I don't just sit around and complain cause Blizz did it THEIR way instead of MINE. Also, when I have a suggestion for Blizz, I follow the appropriate steps to insure it makes it to the right persons or department to be read and acknowledged. It is not my intention to come off as though I am trying to subtly pick a fight. I just figure most people don't know the proper way to suggest changes or offer feedback. It's not in this site's forum.

Seems there are a handful who delve directly into insults. Ironic that one of them is using a sig line that says, "If you have to attack a person instead of what they're saying, then you've already lost the argument." Two posts within 2 pages:





If nothing else, I'm hopeful the mods will address it. Almost impossible to carry on conversation with people like this in the thread. Anyway, thanks for the input, but I'm not here for the popcorn or the spice. Simply here to silence the whining and offer some constructive suggestions on how to actually get Blizz's attention.

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Seems like most of the responses are probably given in this manner...


Some people just are not interested in points of view that just happen to coincide 100% with Blizz. They automatically assume we must be trolling.

Yeah I didn't mean to insult you by any means nor do I think you took it that way to much. But I just had to say it. That guy has one mission in life and its to talk about WoW flying for the rest of it. Really I shouldn't say talk about WoW flying. More just talk about how he wants it to be. Anyone that disagrees is a tool of Blizzard.. so on and so on..

I doubt the mods will do anything but they might surprise me. Typically what they do with flying freaks is leave one or two threads open and just let whatever "fly" in them but don't let it spill beyond them. Its more a containment so everyone else can move on and ignore the echo chamber response rather than an endless stream of parroting of threads. Just keep all the parrots in one thread.

Again could be wrong.

[Deleted]

Isn't it great that conversations about flying can't stay well grounded. How fitting.

[Dhrizzle]

Illusion of 3D world can be created in 2D game via portal tech. When it seems to you, that you climb to 2nd floor, that is above some other location - you actually just port to some other part of map, that is still on the same level, as any other locations. This is how some old pseudo-3D games worked. Like Duke Nukem 3D for example. So, at the end any 3D map can be represented as some 2D maze. But that's not, what we are talking about.

WoW isn't pseudo-3D though, I'm very sure it has an actual z-axis.

I just try to say, that for me "Open world" - is location with complete freedom of movement. What we have now - is essentially bunch of 3D mazes of small rooms and narrow corridors. Something like mine cave in your Garrison, but with illusion, that it's open world location, created via removing celling of this cave and showing you sky. But it's still essentially a cave, cuz "artificial" walls prevent you from moving strait from point A to point B - you have to clear your way through maze of corridors, filled with crowds of mobs. And if you also will combine this already bad enough design with competition - you'll get simply unbearable design.

An open world simply means an open world, it doesn't mean a featureless terrain that allows you to move anywhere in any direction. Typically the intent is to somehow mimic the real world which also features barriers that you have to move around rather than ascending over.

Whilst there are some "artificial" barriers (I assume you mean invisible walls, if not please explain what you think "artificial" means) mostly it is "natural" barriers like steep hills, cliffs or densely packed trees that impede progress.

So, what I actually want - is "World of OpenWorldCraft" not "World of CaveMazeCraft". And in this case flying simply brings feeling of open world back.

What you seem to want is "World of TerrainIsMeaninglessAndMightAsWellBePaintedOnAFlatFeaturelessPlainCraft."

Don't get me wrong - I'm not completely against any 3D features. Yeah, they can be parts of scenery and immersion. But they shouldn't be parts of gameplay.

Then WoW has not been the right game for you since it launched 12 years ago.

Can't find proper picture to use as example. Just imagine, what will happen, if you will project this hill onto horizontal plane. You will get 2D maze, that can be represented as some sort of cave.

P.S. This is the reason, why this design is called "claustrophobic" - because you feel, like you're in narrow cave, not in open world.

What is this meant to illustrate, that in the real world paths up mountains have to be winding, and WoW is doing a good job representing this in the Broken Isles? Isn't that a positive? Couldn't you say the same about any zone in WoW, that if it had a roof instead of sky it would be a cave?

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Some people just are not interested in points of view that just happen to coincide 100% with Blizz. They automatically assume we must be trolling.

So far in the various flying threads I've pointed out design choices I've disliked in several expansions but certain forum posters still accuse me of blindly agreeing with anything that Blizz says.

[WowIsDead64]

WoW isn't pseudo-3D though, I'm very sure it has an actual z-axis.

An open world simply means an open world, it doesn't mean a featureless terrain that allows you to move anywhere in any direction. Typically the intent is to somehow mimic the real world which also features barriers that you have to move around rather than ascending over.

Whilst there are some "artificial" barriers (I assume you mean invisible walls, if not please explain what you think "artificial" means) mostly it is "natural" barriers like steep hills, cliffs or densely packed trees that impede progress.

What you seem to want is "World of TerrainIsMeaninglessAndMightAsWellBePaintedOnAFlatFeaturelessPlainCraft."

Then WoW has not been the right game for you since it launched 12 years ago.

What is this meant to illustrate, that in the real world paths up mountains have to be winding, and WoW is doing a good job representing this in the Broken Isles? Isn't that a positive? Couldn't you say the same about any zone in WoW, that if it had a roof instead of sky it would be a cave?

I don't know, how to explain "artificial obstacle" term to you, cuz it's intuitive term and it's hard to explain, what intuitive term means, to a person, who pretends, that he doesn't understand intuitive terms. Imagine, that city authorities will all of a sudden decide to put concrete block in a middle of a road. What's the purpose of this block? Why do we need it? Nobody knows. May be just to artificially slow drivers down? Same here. As you actually mentioned - Wow is game, not real life. So, world doesn't exist in "as is" state - it's designed by developers. And if you're adult, you should know one simple rule: nothing is made "just like that" - everything has it's purpose. So, if we have location with mobs in it and all of a sudden game developer decides to split it via wall with small passage in a middle of it, then we should ask a simple question - what's the purpose of this wall? Do we really need it? Or may be it's just "artificial obstacle", that has only one purpose - to artificially slow us down?

[Dhrizzle]

I don't know, how to explain "artificial obstacle" term to you, cuz it's intuitive term and it's hard to explain, what intuitive term means, to a person, who pretends, that he doesn't understand intuitive terms. Imagine, that city authorities will all of a sudden decide to put concrete block in a middle of a road. What's the purpose of this block? Why do we need it? Nobody knows. May be just to artificially slow drivers down? Same here. As you actually mentioned - Wow is game, not real life. So, world doesn't exist in "as is" state - it's designed by developers. And if you're adult, you should know one simple rule: nothing is made "just like that" - everything has it's purpose. So, if we have location with mobs in it and all of a sudden game developer decides to split it via wall with small passage in a middle of it, then we should ask a simple question - what's the purpose of this wall? Do we really need it? Or may be it's just "artificial obstacle", that has only one purpose - to artificially slow us down?

So if Blizz don't put obstacles in the way of your path, would you describe that as them "artificially" speeding you up? Do you also call flight a method of "artificially" speeding your progression?

[thatmikeguy]

Another flying crap post. They will not change the way it works, unless its mostly indoors/underground/swimming where we wouldn't need it anyway. And that could make for a really funny Blizzcon reveal.

They already said this gives them the ability to make many more kinds of quests. That alone will keep it working the same.

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I don't know, how to explain "artificial obstacle" term to you, cuz it's intuitive term and it's hard to explain, what intuitive term means, to a person, who pretends, that he doesn't understand intuitive terms. Imagine, that city authorities will all of a sudden decide to put concrete block in a middle of a road. What's the purpose of this block? Why do we need it? Nobody knows. May be just to artificially slow drivers down? Same here. As you actually mentioned - Wow is game, not real life. So, world doesn't exist in "as is" state - it's designed by developers. And if you're adult, you should know one simple rule: nothing is made "just like that" - everything has it's purpose. So, if we have location with mobs in it and all of a sudden game developer decides to split it via wall with small passage in a middle of it, then we should ask a simple question - what's the purpose of this wall? Do we really need it? Or may be it's just "artificial obstacle", that has only one purpose - to artificially slow us down?

Blah. You should go back to your list and add how each one can be implemented.

Not flying is so much more than speed limitations as far as questing goes. Can you seriously not see that?

[WowIsDead64]

So if Blizz don't put obstacles in the way of your path, would you describe that as them "artificially" speeding you up? Do you also call flight a method of "artificially" speeding your progression?

You should understand, what Wow is about. It's about killing mobs and collecting items. Why? Because this are objectives of quests, I do. Quests don't tell me to "explore world". They tell me to kill X mobs and collect Y items. So, "natural" speed of content consumption - is determined by how quick I can kill mobs and collect items. If game developer tries to slow me down somehow, then this slowing down just can't be "natural" - it can only be "artificial". Yeah, some players are explorers, so they like to explore terrain. But they're minority. It's ok to have some optional features in game, related to exploration, but it's not ok to force such features on all players without any exception.

Yeah, I agree, that flying "artificially" speeds my progression. But I treat it as compensation of artificial slowing down, caused by ground-unfriendly design of outdoor content. I.e. "Artificially slow" + "artificially fast" = "normal speed of content consumption".

[micwini]

For me No flying on max level = no buying AT ALL, i can accept it for being restricted to max level, but no more grinding for something that Blizzard announcing it as a feature while it was baseline, let me enjoy the content at my pace and the way i want it.

See you next expac with no flying at max level.

[Deleted]

Nobody cares, you're not that special, you know?

maybe not, but i am

[Vorecien]

I'm not going to go over all the possible ways this simple switch could completely solve every problem with the mount system

That's a bold statement. You have me interested.

Okay. We've looked at this from a player perspective - let's use a developer (programming) perspective now. If we glance at Azuremyst Isle, Bloodmyst Isle, Eversong Woods, Ghostlands, and Isle of Quel'Danas, none of them have flight. This has been addressed before in an interview between the community and (I believe) Greg Street (Ghostcrawler), but I can't remember exactly. Anyway, it was stated that the code structure for those zones is way different than that of other zones, such that it would be a nightmare to update to permit player flight. (The same is said for bags - would scrollable bags not be cooler?)

We don't know the codebase, so we can't say, definitively, if the design of the player flight - or mount - system is outdated. An interesting way to phrase it, nonetheless. I'd love to hear YOUR thoughts on it, though.

And besides, it looks like we might not even see any more open world content release in Legion, as it's suggested by the interview yesterday where Ion said "Anyone who you see flying right now has done the outdoor content of Legion.". It would seem to imply future patches are going to just be dungeons and raids.

Well, not quite. Up to this point we've had lots of outdoor content to do: exploration, world quests, reputation farming, hidden features (unrelated, but still cool), etc. The point that Ion was making is that people who are flying right now have done the aforementioned content, and to great lengths. In Patch 7.3, we travel to Argus, do you not expect outdoor content there? We can't possibly arrive to a new planet and be like... PLUNDER THE DUNGEONS AND PILLAGE THE RAIDS! It doesn't make any sense - that would be an example of poor design. Of course we'll have to expand our reaches to a new planet. Perhaps the Armies of Legionfall faction (the twelve order halls coming together) will be found there - which would be an additional way for new(er) players/characters to further catch up with the rest of us. I have no idea, just a thought.

I doubt no additional outdoor content will be added going forward. Legion still has plenty of life left and lots of room for content. However, you could be right, we won't know until Blizzard tells us.

[stomination]

For me No flying on max level = no buying AT ALL, i can accept it for being restricted to max level, but no more grinding for something that Blizzard announcing it as a feature while it was baseline, let me enjoy the content at my pace and the way i want it.

People have said this a lot of the past few years yet they always seem to be around to gripe about no flying and still talk about things in game.

[SirCowdog]

That's a bold statement. You have me interested.

Okay. We've looked at this from a player perspective - let's use a developer (programming) perspective now. If we glance at Azuremyst Isle, Bloodmyst Isle, Eversong Woods, Ghostlands, and Isle of Quel'Danas, none of them have flight. This has been addressed before in an interview between the community and (I believe) Greg Street (Ghostcrawler), but I can't remember exactly. Anyway, it was stated that the code structure for those zones is way different than that of other zones, such that it would be a nightmare to update to permit player flight. (The same is said for bags - would scrollable bags not be cooler?)

We don't know the codebase, so we can't say, definitively, if the design of the player flight - or mount - system is outdated. An interesting way to phrase it, nonetheless. I'd love to hear YOUR thoughts on it, though.

Well, legacy code is probably something they're trying to deal with. Vanilla clearly wasn't designed to handle flying players. But they added flight in TBC, with those zones being capable of allowing flight(and the code to do so). Did they use old vanilla code for the Isle of QD or something, even though the rest of the expansion was using code that could handle flight? But then, we have the example of Cata to show that Blizzard has, at the very least, the capability to overhaul all of the vanilla zones to allow for flying players.

We don't know exactly what "technical problems" literally prevent players from flying, but given the examples of the game's history, I find it VERY difficult to believe that it wouldn't be possible to create entirely new zones that would use flying instead of being broken by it.

But lets be clear here: I'm not suggesting they go back and remaster old zones just to allow players to fly in them. If they're going to try and re-use existing content from older expansions it would take remastering almost every aspect, using scaling. Many encounters would need to be re-designed to account for higher player power and gear levels, as well as access to other talents, spells, and abilities. I'm not sure that's worth the effort(although they curiously find the time and resources to continue adding "timewalking" to dungeons, and now raids).

But new zones that haven't been implemented yet? That's an entirely different story. It seems very obvious that all of Legion's zones are capable of allowing flight, even if the individual quests and encounters weren't designed to challenge a flying player. Why, then, is it such a massive technical hurdle to create entirely new zones and content that uses flight? It just doesn't add up.

I suppose that mounts might be tied somehow to the character database, and going deep into the dark recesses of the code in order to switch mounts over to the vehicle system might be difficult. The vehicle system itself might be somehow tied to specific quests or zones in such a way that makes it irritating to adjust how they work. But I find those explanations hard to swollow due to things like the Vendor Mammoth, 2-Seat rocket mounts, or when players turn themselves into mounts that other players can ride. Blizzard clearly has the ability to play around with how mounts work in different situations.

As far as I'm concerned the entire "It's too difficult" explanation is just a convenient excuse to avoid having to be honest about simply not wanting to tackle the problem. Removing flight from the design process is clearly the easier path for them.

Well, not quite. Up to this point we've had lots of outdoor content to do: exploration, world quests, reputation farming, hidden features (unrelated, but still cool), etc. The point that Ion was making is that people who are flying right now have done the aforementioned content, and to great lengths.

I say a lot of bad things about Ion, but I will not deny that he is an intelligent person. I don't think it was a mistake that he said "They've cleared the content of Legion" instead of "They've cleared the content of The Broken Isles". I could be wrong. I HOPE I'm wrong. But given the behavior and direction of the game since WoD, it's pretty clear that the current leadership of the dev teams is fixated on the whole No-Flying thing.

In Patch 7.3, we travel to Argus, do you not expect outdoor content there? We can't possibly arrive to a new planet and be like... PLUNDER THE DUNGEONS AND PILLAGE THE RAIDS! It doesn't make any sense - that would be an example of poor design.

Eh...why not? We did it on both Outland AND Draenor! Granted those were each their own expansions, but there's no reason why would wouldn't continue to do the same thing on a smaller scale of a major content patch like 7.3.

Of course we'll have to expand our reaches to a new planet. Perhaps the Armies of Legionfall faction (the twelve order halls coming together) will be found there - which would be an additional way for new(er) players/characters to further catch up with the rest of us. I have no idea, just a thought.

I doubt no additional outdoor content will be added going forward. Legion still has plenty of life left and lots of room for content. However, you could be right, we won't know until Blizzard tells us.

Lets not forget that the past two expansions both had massive 14 month content droughts. While I definitely appreciate that Legion is keeping up a much better release schedule, I can't discount the possibility of large stretches of time where we have nothing new to mess around with besides raid bosses, short scenarios to deliver story, and maybe a new dungeon or two.

It would be great if they released Argus as a series of relatively large zones. I mean, it's an entire planet(albeit a broken one similar to outland), and one of the center-pieces of the lore. There is a LOT of lore surrounding the place, and a LOT of potential for content. It would be a real shame, and yet another missed opportunity if all Argus turned out to be was just one more tiny No-Fly island or just a raid.

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People have said this a lot of the past few years yet they always seem to be around to gripe about no flying and still talk about things in game.

You don't have to be subbed in order to keep up with current events. This IS the age of information, after all.

[Sevyvia]

Oh no, how will the game ever survive without people whining their ass off about an absolutely unnecessary feature.

Quite possibly, it will be better for it.

[Vorecien]

But then, we have the example of Cata to show that Blizzard has, at the very least, the capability to overhaul all of the vanilla zones to allow for flying players.

They have the ability to add flying to the TBC-added zones, of course. The addition of flight to the Classic zones was a high-listed goal on the TODO list, I guess the others weren't.

We don't know exactly what "technical problems" literally prevent players from flying, but given the examples of the game's history, I find it VERY difficult to believe that it wouldn't be possible to create entirely new zones that would use flying instead of being broken by it.

I believe the content that we deal with in the beginning of the expansion while on the ground should be easier (or even trivialized) by flight, we earned it. Now, if they made additional content going forward NOT trivialized by flight, that would be interesting. (The Magic of Flight world quests, but for flying mounts - flying mount challenges.)

I say a lot of bad things about Ion, but I will not deny that he is an intelligent person. I don't think it was a mistake that he said "They've cleared the content of Legion" instead of "They've cleared the content of The Broken Isles". I could be wrong. I HOPE I'm wrong. But given the behavior and direction of the game since WoD, it's pretty clear that the current leadership of the dev teams is fixated on the whole No-Flying thing.

They liked the implementation of flight this round. They're just on the mindset of "work and reward", and that's the way it should be. That doesn't mean, however, that there shouldn't be new challenges in the future. They're probably not focused on, "How do we make the next set of content harder - or more challenging for players with flight - BUT also not ridiculous (or even impossible) for players without flight?"

A design for new zones to use flying is cool, but what if I don't have flight yet? We can't punish players without it - this is probably the reason that they would give you.

Eh...why not? We did it on both Outland AND Draenor! Granted those were each their own expansions, but there's no reason why would wouldn't continue to do the same thing on a smaller scale of a major content patch like 7.3.

I just don't see it, honestly.

It would be a real shame, and yet another missed opportunity if all Argus turned out to be was just one more tiny No-Fly island.

I agree.

[Glorious Leader]

If they arent going to add flying then at least design better zones. I fucking hate navigating suramar
Fuck that place

[Thetruth1400]

I am mixed

I liked how FFXIV did it where to unlock flying you had to visit a number of vistas in every zone HOWEVER I don't mind waiting 3-4 months till first content patch. I think 8 months is too long and I suspect Blizzard now knows this

I agree. I wouldn't mind waiting a patch, but mid expansion or later just seems stupid. Personally, I'd rather them release it with the expansion or the first patch or just not at all, none of this "we might; okay we will; okay we definitely will but jump through these hoops first"

For me, I'm just not getting the next expansion at launch no matter what. Don't get me wrong, I like the game and think it has its moments, but I also feel like it's no longer a game that I will support on launch, instead waiting for a sale. They've designed the game where catch up mechanics are in literally every aspect of the game, so I don't have to worry about being behind if I don't get it day 1.