"Pay to Win"

[Softbottom]

The game has been P2W since molten core opened. You could buy raid carries for real money since 2005.

[Dhrizzle]

WoW expansions are by very definition pay to win. Go find a level 60 and let him play as much as he wants and compare him to any level 110. The 60 will be an insect in all regards. He has to pay in order to stand a chance.

That's if you wish to be very technical, though.

The PC gaming space is notoriously p2w, try playing with a high-end gaming PC using a mechanical keyboard and MMO mouse compared to a barely-minimal-spec laptop using the built-in keyboard and track-pad.

[Accendor]

obv it is pay to win, yes. Buy gold, buy high level titanforged gear from the AH. Spending money on gear = pay to win.

[Queen of Hamsters]

WoW is not Pay to win by design. Players choosing to spend gold (and real money) on having the game played for them by other players is not exactly something that's expected of the players. And still, how do they win? Someone buying his way into a full Mythic raid set can be dismantled by a seasoned guild leader just by looking at raid history. If not that way, then he'll be found out when he needs to perform.

All they win at is standing around a major city, and once the content they purchased boosts for is outdated they'll do it again. There's no "winning" going on there.

However, if we're going to say "WoW is pay to win hurr hurr durr!" based on players buying boosts for gold or real money, then the game has been P2W since the first raid opened up. Or since the first power-leveling service was carried out. I remember being offered to buy Invincible for real money (!) back in WOTLK. I never asked how much since my direct answer was "No", but still...

WoW has no perks given to those paying with real money vs those paying for gold, so WoW is not P2W by design. Simple. Any benefits from paying with gold, applies to real life savings.

- - - Updated - - -

Wait, what? You do know we can buy gold with real money, and with that gold we can get gear, right? So how are we not able to pay for a gameplay leverage against other players? Gear isn't an advantage against other players?

If someone wants to spend 20 euro a pop to get gold in order to buy epix off the AH, that person probably needs the "edge" it gives.
It will in no shape or form guarantee that person success in-game, in any field. Anyone can amass gold through in-game means and buy the same items from the AH, not to forget. If people not buying their gold for real money got locked out from buying gear off the AH, THEN I'd agree that this game had turned "P2W".

As it stands now, I have no interest in P2W titles, not even those bloody phone games, so I'll stick with WoW.

[analmoose]

You guys are missing a pretty significant point. While not directly pay to win, you can pay for a lot of gold, which will pay for a lot of loot runs. That is pay to win.

[ablib]

This isn't a debate.

Pay to win is gaining an in-game advantage using real money, over someone that chose to not spend real money.

The problem with this, is the pseudo intellectuals of the gaming community focus too much on the word "win" and takes the meaning of that word literally.

[Usagi Senshi]

You can definitely P2W in WoW with a 100 boost then outfitting that character in 840/940 BoEs (fun for twink dps tank runs in Legion normals if you turn EXP off). I mean, you're not winning much but its still an advantage of sorts in the faster with short cuts way.

That and paying for raid/pvp boosts.

I have no issues with it.

[Queen of Hamsters]

You guys are missing a pretty significant point. While not directly pay to win, you can pay for a lot of gold, which will pay for a lot of loot runs. That is pay to win.

And someone can NOT spend that real life cash, amass huge amounts of in-game gold through in-game means, and pay for even MORE loot runs whilst also saving real money!

Who's winning?

The person whom is actually playing the game him/herself, amassing in-game rewards without paying for it in a roundaway manner I would say. You people act as if it's equal to "winning" at this game being carried for epix... That might be "winning" in your minds, but the people actually involved in the content at those levels would probably not agree that having the game played for you is "winning"...

I can buy epix for my alts upon them reaching 110. I still can't "win" with them. I won't get into Mythic raiding/High end PVP with them unless I prove I can play the class and role I sign up for, for example. I could buy my way to a fully Mythic raid geared character, but what good would it serve me in securing a spot somewhere? I'd end up with a Mythic geared character displaying that I'd purchased my way through progression.

Nothing you can get for paying for a token and getting gold, can't also be obtained through in-game means. Cheaper and easier even I'd say, there are people raking in millions and not even paying real cash for the sub.

[Wildpantz]

Well the new craft legendarys and the boe epics for gold which you can get for wow token. Still its more a pay ridiculous dollar for 3-4 items and then grind gear it saves a little time you wont "win" by buying 4 items

[WskyDK]

Love the new avatar
oT: wow isn't pay to win as real world currency cannot be used to gain direct advantage over someone who only pays for a sub and plays for gear.

[analmoose]

And someone can NOT spend that real life cash, amass huge amounts of in-game gold through in-game means, and pay for even MORE loot runs whilst also saving real money!

Who's winning?

The person whom is actually playing the game him/herself, amassing in-game rewards without paying for it in a roundaway manner I would say. You people act as if it's equal to "winning" at this game being carried for epix... That might be "winning" in your minds, but the people actually involved in the content at those levels would probably not agree that having the game played for you is "winning"...

I can buy epix for my alts upon them reaching 110. I still can't "win" with them. I won't get into Mythic raiding/High end PVP with them unless I prove I can play the class and role I sign up for, for example. I could buy my way to a fully Mythic raid geared character, but what good would it serve me in securing a spot somewhere? I'd end up with a Mythic geared character displaying that I'd purchased my way through progression.

Nothing you can get for paying for a token and getting gold, can't also be obtained through in-game means. Cheaper and easier even I'd say, there are people raking in millions and not even paying real cash for the sub.

You aren't proving me wrong, you're just sidestepping the point. So you are saying if we skip the middle man (guilds selling runs) and just throw item sets up for sale on the in game store that isn't pay to win? It's really no different

[jcf190]

To paraphrase one of the game's developers: It's hard to pay to win a game that has no victory conditions. You never reach a point in WoW (by design) and suddenly stop and say, "hey, I've beaten the game."

[Wilian]

You put in money and gain a benefit that has impact on game beyond cosmetics.

Buying leveled characters and selling things for gold are some of the P2W mechanics WoW employs.

[Queen of Hamsters]

You aren't proving me wrong, you're just sidestepping the point. So you are saying if we skip the middle man (guilds selling runs) and just throw item sets up for sale on the in game store that isn't pay to win? It's really no different

Of course it's different.

And once more, since a lot of people seem to have a hard time understanding this; There's NOTHING you can achieve in-game for real money, that you can't achieve through just playing the game.

WoW is not Pay to Win. Players choosing to spend real money to buy in-game shit, doesn't mean you're crippled if you WON'T spend that real money. I've equipped every 110 with epix from the AH, and have done so without spending a penny IRL. I don't consider myself to be "winning" at the game with those characters.

The biggest cripple to a player in this game, is simply not wanting to play the game and play it to match the levels they aspire for. PVP or PVE. It's pretty apparent whom purchased their achievements and titles and gear and those that did not.

[Jaylock]

You guys are missing a pretty significant point. While not directly pay to win, you can pay for a lot of gold, which will pay for a lot of loot runs. That is pay to win.

But Blizzard isn't selling the loot runs, its guilds that are doing it. It's deplorable that people do this, but if theres gold to be had, it seems like this will always exist regardless of the method to obtain said gold.

Blizzard isn't selling anything that directly increases your character's power. Its not Pay to win.

[-Joker-]

By its very definition, pay to win infers affecting the gameplay via cash payout rather than cosmetic interaction. If you could pay for an entire set of tier gear and have the 25mythic achieve ding without ever touching the raid, that to me is P2W. Purchasing a flying mount or pet simply because you like the appearance, not pay to win.

Where we come into the grey area is this:

If you purchase 10 tokens with money and sell them in the AH, you have spent $200 actual dollars to collect almost 1M gold coins. Now, if you use that gold to buy the gear from the AH and then breeze through the raid, that is technically pay to win. Then again, I always ask myself one simple questions when it comes to video games...



Ultimately, it is a game that people play to have fun. If someone buys the tokens to get the gold to get the gear to run the raid, who cares? They did not just foreclose on your house, or beat you out of that promotion at work. They did not inflict physical harm on your loved one, nor did they break into your home and violate your safety. They played by the rules that BLIZZ put in their game, and they came out on top in a GAME RATED T FOR TEEN. There is no "winning" at WoW until they stop making expacs and you have every possible achievement point ever made.

So, let's all just go about our day, play our game our way, and ignore if others are impressed or not. I can't imagine I could count on one hand the number of people who would give an earnest fuck that I was one of the first people to clear Nighthold on Mythic. (which I am not, but it put one of you on the defensive and were about to ask for screen shots). No one cares about P2W, cause winning is not possible in this game.

[Divinexve]

Cant someone ban you again for stupid posts?

WoW doesnt have a single P2W element.

Pay to win is when game provides gear/damage/buffs with money that are relevant to the active progression of the game.

Rift and earring slots as example.

Buff scrolls in old MMOs back in 2003-2005.

1. Buy wow tokens with real money and sell them for gold
2. get a couple million gold this way
3. buy 10/10 M carries
4. pay 2 win

[Hellborne87]

Depends on how you define winning. To me, winning in wow is having nearly full mythic bis gear (right now that means 910-915 ilvl), as well as getting the Cutting Edge achieve for each raid tier, being caught up in all other aspects of the game (rep, flying, class quests, etc), and most importantly, belonging to a guild with a core of players who you enjoy raiding with and clearing mythic content with.

Buying a wow token leads to what? Maybe a crafted legendary and some junk crafted epics? <-- Those items will not lead you to the things I mentioned above. I promise.

Furthermore, to those of you saying that you can buy carries with millions of gold; If someone wants to spend $400 bucks on ONE mythic carry clear, in which certain gear isn't even certain to drop, big deal imo lol. That's so far from efficient. Technically, any game is p2w then because you can fork cash over to anyone to play any game for you.

[northgan]

No at all, is not pay to win

[ls-]

Hehehe... As expected, some people think that carry services provided by 3rd parties make WoW P2W. If that's the way people define P2W, then WoW has been P2W since Vanilla, for instance, you could easily buy BWL carry even w/ loot back in the day. The only difference is that advertisers are way bolder right now.