"Pay to Win"

[Aggrophobic]

Paying to see you get permanently banned from these forums forever so you'd get off your pathetic trolling lifestyle and get a fucking job.

Infracted

I hope you understand that you pretty much made his day here.
This is why he makes his posts.

[rayvio]

pet battles are arguably pay to win since the blizzstore pets are often among the more powerful (although even then there are comparably powerful pets available without spending a penny) but even then, while popular they're not a part of the 'core' gameplay

the ability to change real life money into in-game currency doesn't directly give that big an advantage, you could get your character fairly powerful by just investing in BoEs but the best items are still a combination of effort and RNG. yes you can probably find a good raid willing to drag even the worst of players along for enough gold but that's almost certainly true of any multiplayer game and can be blamed entirely on the playerbase rather than Blizzard (the community is just as much a weakness of the game as it is a strength)

personally I would have rather they just scrapped the subscription entirely (like every other mmo has had to in order to actually get enough players) but we all know that they won't do that while people are still willing to pay, so the token system is a better alternative for those less willing or able to pay real life money to play. also there have always been and would always continue to be people changing real life money for in-game cash, if the money's going to Blizz then at least some of it will go towards maintaining and (hopefully) improving the game

[nekobaka]

If I was to go off those posts on the Official forum that cosmetics are important character progression then I would say to a degree WoW is P2W. However, I do not think cosmetics are notable character progression. Buying gold through tokens to then by items off of black market AH could be a form of P2W. Overall the items available and number of them make the impact very small to effectively non-existent.

I do think Blizzard is double dipping with its mix of subscription and methods that F2P games use to generate revenue.

[HeiAggra]

I agree with you though. I don't think WoW is pay to win at all, but some people do. I'd like to know what people's definition of Pay to win is and if they think WoW falls into that category.

Well Jay it's simple. Pay to Win would be if Blizz would sell BIS gear, Achivements and lock content on the store that you would onlu have access if you pay.
So no, WOW is not pay to win.
Of course some ppl pay top guilds for boosts, but that's their problem. They just some noobs with loads of gold that get carried and for me that's not beating the game.

[Polarthief]

WoW has 0 P2W elements. You can buy gold and you can buy gear with said gold up to a certain point, but it doesn't really count since gold can also be used for WoW time; it's a bit of a weird grey area but I don't consider buying gold as P2W. Now if there was a vendor that offered raid gear for gold, then yes, that would immediately be P2W. Same with them offering gear directly from the store.

NOT Pay2Win:
- Vanity items (mounts, cosmetic gear, pets, titles, etc)
- Gold (as long as there's no vendor you can buy raid+ gear from)
- EXP/Powerleveling

IS Pay2Win:
- Directly buying gear
- Artifact Power/Knowledge
- Stat boosts


TL;DR: Anything that gives you some advantage in combat (no matter how small, even a 0.001% increase) over players who didn't buy is Pay2Win. Gold in WoW is not one of those advantages with how freely it's handed out in-game.

pet battles are arguably pay to win since the blizzstore pets are often among the more powerful (although even then there are comparably powerful pets available without spending a penny) but even then, while popular they're not a part of the 'core' gameplay

I assume you're referring to PvP Pet Battles? Because I haven't needed a single one of those pets for PvE quests/battles nor have I seen a single one used in any guide I've ever come across.

[Temp name]

Pay to win is when you can directly, legally buy power with out-of-game currencies. For instance if you could buy a full tier set/gear with real money from Blizzard.

As it stands, you can only buy exclusive models/skins, and gold. So I don't really care.

[Demonidze]

a game is a pay to win at the moment as you can pay to get boosted at arena, mythic+, even at NH mythic. all is needed from someone is to be near a pc and stay around the rest of the group and lots of gold(which bought with irl money). kinda lame.. but it was like that since pretty much vanilla, only now it became more mainstream because the wow tokens.

- - - Updated - - -

Pay to win is when you can directly, legally buy power with out-of-game currencies. For instance if you could buy a full tier set/gear with real money from Blizzard.

As it stands, you can only buy exclusive models/skins, and gold. So I don't really care.

you buy gold with irl money and with gold you buy power. lets say if your friend gave you heavy drugs for free, but he bought them off a drug dealer, would you also say its ok because its not you directly buying them? no its still not ok. same situation here.

[Deleted]

Buying any ingame advantage with real money is pay to win, so yeah, WoW is pay to win ever since they introduced the WoW token. I mean we can now even buy legendary items with real money.

Tell me where you bought NH MM stuff with gold from WoW tokens plz.
I'm very interested.

Having one crappy legendary that you indirectly buy with a WoW token sale is everything but P2W...

[Alvito]

Cant someone ban you again for stupid posts?

WoW doesnt have a single P2W element.

Pay to win is when game provides gear/damage/buffs with money that are relevant to the active progression of the game.

Rift and earring slots as example.

Buff scrolls in old MMOs back in 2003-2005.

That isn't entirely true. You can buy gold with cash. With gold you can buy a lot of mythic or titanforged boe items. Sure you have to do some juggling to do this and you can only get so many items it is still a form of pay to win, even if a weak one.

- - - Updated - - -

Buying any ingame advantage with real money is pay to win, so yeah, WoW is pay to win ever since they introduced the WoW token. I mean we can now even buy legendary items with real money.

Those are some pretty awful legendary items though. For almost all specs the only way you use those is if you are a lvl 101 toon and have nothing else.

[Lochton]

What is YOUR definition of "pay to win"?

As it relates to WoW, do you believe the game is now pay to win, or not at all pay to win?

My idea of pay 2 win is about advancement and progress - which WoW doesn't sell.

Character boost isn't. Mounts, isn't. Transmog, isn't.

- - - Updated - - -

Buying any ingame advantage with real money is pay to win, so yeah, WoW is pay to win ever since they introduced the WoW token. I mean we can now even buy legendary items with real money.

But, you can't?

The tokens do something that players have done for years before it. Sell gametime for gold. That is what it does.

You sell a token aka. game tiem, you get gold. Nothing new in that. Not really real money purchase, this isn't the start of D3 auctionhouse.

[Flextt]

There is no pay to win in this game. Win trading gets you permanent bans. Heroic raid boosts are not really profitable and you pay with time and effort for gold, while Mythic raid boosts are hugely expensive and still require competent players to play mechanics. Tokens offer vanity rewards and play time, but have really bad value on EU. This trend will continue until the goblins have spent their millions from WoD and Legion herb farm. If anything, WoW Tokens are useful for HotS and Hearthstone I guess.

[Deleted]

Ah, I thought you meant from third-party sites.

Honestly, from an economics standpoint, the WoW Token's effect was minute, if not nonexistent.

The definition of Pay 2 Win is easy: Pay real money and make your character stronger. WoW has nothing of this sort..

Level 100 boost makes your character stronger than level 1 therefore its pay to win. /s

[Polybius]

it is blizzard fault £15 = what 190k? gold directly from blizzard token

That gold doesn't magically come out of a hat. Another player grinds it, you're just paying for their sub and the permission to trade said sub for gold.

Sounds more like Trade to Win, which you can already do by offering carries or prof services to players. If trading earned gold for subscriptions is "winning" then ... I don't know what to tell you.

[risingforce]

Every MMORPG has been open to "pay to win" via IRL money and third party currency brokers/websites.

My experience dates back to Asheron's Call and Everquest; 'pay to win' existed back then by the loose definition of this thread, and likewise will continue to do so for future generations. These games are obstacles to overcome cooperatively, usually via social and time commitment but the economy of boosting has always been a constant that satisfies both supply and demand; I don't recall WoW or any game I've played compromised by boosting or third party brokers/websites.

That Blizzard took the calculated risk and balls to offer the WoW Token they have solved a few things: (1) legitimate currency broker, no longer do players need to go to third party websites (2) ingeniously the WoW Token could be traded for game time and now Blizzard Balance (3) it was a dent towards the botting community's momentum*.

I don't see the game being ruined by Blizzard's offering of a currency broker nor the crafted Legendaries. When the game is compromised by people buying in game assets then we have an issue, but we don't. The end game still succeed's that basic tenement of MMORPG -that to win you need to commit socially and time wise to the game, to your guild and then the skill is on top, above and beyond all of that. No one is denting the bleeding edge of the game by purchasing any in-game assets.

A dev said a long time ago, on the topic of Clash of Clans something like "if developers get it right game design should satisfy players who wish to pay for free -never pay anything, ever -and another player who's happy to invest several tens of thousands of dollars." I think that's really the paradigm, if you can reach that point, as a game design, then you've done it right. Currently in WoW £750 will buy you about 10M gold which maybe buys you a Mythic 10/10 Nighthold boost... that's a lot of Gold and Money to me but it's pocket change to some people... and it should be fine, absolutely fine, that some people in the world [of warcraft] can buy that. It doesn't compromise the game, and the seller / customer now have a legitimate route of business thanks to the WoW Token / Blizzard Balance model.


TLDR bait aside, 'pay to win' is ultimately a subjective matter. But let's at least agree the WoW Tokens make it better and safer place for those who do buy currency and for anyone not effected by purchase of in-game currency, then WoW Tokens don't effect you at all and the game continues as it always has. Enjoy!

*edit -i was a very active in the botting community, only for personal gain and helping a few people out gold wise when the WoW Token idea was being floated. It made me totally rethink my botting efforts. The appropriate forums were alight with discussion as you can imagine. But that was enough. It made a lot of people rethink their route to Gold. And it made waves in the botting community; for good or bad, who cares, but to me it was was a good thing.

[ComputerNerd]

Wait, what? You do know we can buy gold with real money, and with that gold we can get gear, right? So how are we not able to pay for a gameplay leverage against other players? Gear isn't an advantage against other players?

The game is not fundamentally pay to win.
The player trading is what provides the ability to buy gear for money.
So no, Pay to Win as a business model is not what the game is.

And that isn't something exclusive to WoW.
Pay to Win is when it is designed that way from the outset, to offer that directly.

There was a trade long before the tokens, so they don't "make it" anything.
And that was before the tokens having nothing to do with blizzard.
They just offer a legitimate option for something blizzard are incapable of preventing.

[Noxina]

Well, it was fun to fish up next tier epic pieces from BMAH with gold. Guess that is the closest we come to P2W in WoWs history, as the race got kinda screwed over because some guilds managing to fish up more OP epics than others, giving them that sweet sweet 0.1% more over all damage.

WoW have never had, or will have (I hope) a pay to win situation. I've played on Pirate servers with P2W items, and you really do notice who got the deepest pockets on servers like that.

Buying BoE Epics and Legendaries on AH isn't P2W though, the items aren't strong enough.


Also I love how Jaylocks threads always attract people being extremely hostile to him. Not his fault he is a god at making threads that attract a lot of attention, without really trolling. He just really know what topics to pick.

[Lex Icon]

the players themselves are kind of making it pay to win-ish by selling boosts in raids & arenas i suppose.

[Elim Garak]

Not to the OP (duh) but to all the people ITT who don't know what P2W is, even though they claim they do.

Pay 2 win is not buying an advantage, it's not buying gear, etc

That's just pay part, because what else will you pay for, vanity items? Perhaps, but there's a limit to those.

Pay 2 Win is when you buy "power" (advantage, gear, whatever that gives you an edge) WHILE it is otherwise unavailable in the game, i.e. it's exclusive to the cash shop and Mr. Scrub McPoor cannot have it.

That's pay 2 win. It must be cash shop exclusive items that give more power than non-cash shop items. Because only this way the payer can actually win.

If the items are available in the game (even if they are behind a horrendous grind) - that's not pay 2 win, that's pay to skip time (e.g. character boost).

There's no point to argue with me on this, because if you disagree with what I said about p2w you are just plain wrong and don't know what you are talking about.

[munken]

Well Jay this is my definition of Pay to Win.

Being able to gain a direct power advantage over players and the best gear for real money such as tier sets. Sure there are unofficial methods of Real Money boosts but those are against the rules.

So no WoW is not pay to win.

You forgot to say "you know me Jay, pls say u know me".

But yeah, WoW is not pay 2 win and won't ever be, at least not anytime soon hopefully.

[Deleted]

the players themselves are kind of making it pay to win-ish by selling boosts in raids & arenas i suppose.

Yes, exactly, but blizzard is doing nothing to pursue and ban this behaviour, you can see offerings of all types of carries on a daily basis in all chat channels, and it is not forbidden.
No the game does not belong to the standard P2W definition, i do agree with that, but it is full of P2W.
I always put the same example, if it is ok that a player grabs loot via buying a boost to other players with gold, then i fail to see the difference if that player does the same thing with a kadala-like NPC placed in the game, with the exact same drop chance that player has when buying said boost.