They are doing it!

[Deleted]

Now, if only Survival could get its clunky rotation fixed.

well, at least surv does dmg. MM PS build also plays like ass but still no dmg.

[Eapoe]

Some of what you're saying is true but, as with most of the replies on this topic, you're overstating quite a bit.

For example, the cleave on Nythendra was not "spread cleave" as most strats I ever saw called for people to stack for the breath so everyone's cleave (not just MM) could hit, this includes stomp/beast cleave.

Pet downtimes on fights like Ursoc and Guarm are not nearly as terrible as you describe as one Kill Command is all it takes to get the pet caught up to and back on the boss. In fact pet downtime in general really doesn't exist on most fights these days particularly now that DF also has a charge effect (not so much before when it was just KC, granted).

Dragons, again, the cleave was generally pretty stacked (some exceptions but never enough where I was so far outperforming our BM hunter).

And I don't even know what to tell you on Odyn, because it certainly did not favor MM over BM even with the target cleaving (which I was rarely ever able to do with the way our raid positioned anyway). In fact, of all the fights I did as MM that was the one fight that finally made up my mind on changing over to BM.

Nethendra difference=MM hunter at the side of the boss hits everyone, BM requires pet moving from tail end of the boss to the raid stack, which if your raid does it properly means they will be broken before pet reaches it.
Ursoc=MM no downtime with forethought, BM even with a KC means the pet is slow following a fast moving target while not hitting it and only helped if you have a BW up to do multiple KC's during the boss charge.
Dragons=if you don't notice the difference then your positioning needs a lot of work as you were playing just like a BM Hunter and not hitting everything viable that needs to die.
Same thing with Odyn. Positioning is where MM shined, and unless the BM Hunter was allowed to sit boss full time and not target swap they would have severe drop off, unless again they had BW and multiple uses of KC, which even at a 20 yard range is still a lot of downtime.
Gaurm=same thing as Ursoc. During the run around of the area, your pet is almost dead weight.

[Kirbypro]

Nethendra difference=MM hunter at the side of the boss hits everyone, BM requires pet moving from tail end of the boss to the raid stack, which if your raid does it properly means they will be broken before pet reaches it.
Ursoc=MM no downtime with forethought, BM even with a KC means the pet is slow following a fast moving target while not hitting it and only helped if you have a BW up to do multiple KC's during the boss charge.
Dragons=if you don't notice the difference then your positioning needs a lot of work as you were playing just like a BM Hunter and not hitting everything viable that needs to die.
Same thing with Odyn. Positioning is where MM shined, and unless the BM Hunter was allowed to sit boss full time and not target swap they would have severe drop off, unless again they had BW and multiple uses of KC, which even at a 20 yard range is still a lot of downtime.
Gaurm=same thing as Ursoc. During the run around of the area, your pet is almost dead weight.

I can't tell if you don't know how to optimize BM dmg or you haven't done mythic. Either way...

M Ursoc, hit the bear clone while main bear is charging, no dps loss.

M Guarm, don't use cds during charge, pretty much no dps loss.

M Odyn, BM target switching from boss to one add has never been that big of a problem. One KC takes the pet+hati to the target. BM will carry phase 3 dps.

[Mavick]

Nethendra difference=MM hunter at the side of the boss hits everyone, BM requires pet moving from tail end of the boss to the raid stack, which if your raid does it properly means they will be broken before pet reaches it.
Ursoc=MM no downtime with forethought, BM even with a KC means the pet is slow following a fast moving target while not hitting it and only helped if you have a BW up to do multiple KC's during the boss charge.
Dragons=if you don't notice the difference then your positioning needs a lot of work as you were playing just like a BM Hunter and not hitting everything viable that needs to die.
Same thing with Odyn. Positioning is where MM shined, and unless the BM Hunter was allowed to sit boss full time and not target swap they would have severe drop off, unless again they had BW and multiple uses of KC, which even at a 20 yard range is still a lot of downtime.
Gaurm=same thing as Ursoc. During the run around of the area, your pet is almost dead weight.

Apparently the "some of what you're saying is true but overstated" didn't register well:

Your Nyth example - moving the pet from tail to front took one KC then start applying cleave/stomp, that takes 2 CGD's, done.

In other words: while some minute downtime, still overstated.

[Bepples]

Looks like you havent play BM so far and have no idea what problems spec faces in today`s raids.Yes BM have advantage of free movement but unlike any caster and believe me i have 3 caster alts 900+ he did not hit that hard even MM have harder hits to compensate the movement impact only bad role here is design of Patient sniper talent nothing else but MM have bigger range advantage which can get in hand on some bosses.Yes we do not know how BM will preform in ToS but dont forget that if its way to OP it will be simply nerfed
Personally i preffer to play both BM and MM specs in progress raid but the AP just stick you with the choosen spec ...atleast till we do not reach lv 50AP where i can get both artefacts to equal level for no time

Yeah, you're right. I haven't played BM.

Oh, wait. I exclusively play BM this expansion. What a stupid assumption.

I can't actually understand the rest of your post or the point it's trying to make, nor why you got the impression that I haven't played BM.

- - - Updated - - -

Now, if only Survival could get its clunky rotation fixed.

If only Survival would be ranged again.

[Eapoe]

Apparently the "some of what you're saying is true but overstated" didn't register well:

Your Nyth example - moving the pet from tail to front took one KC then start applying cleave/stomp, that takes 2 CGD's, done.

In other words: while some minute downtime, still overstated.

Out of all those you pick one fight to try and justify the difference? Also, speaking of Nyth, you stated 2 GCD's just to get to where they needed to be and then start their good AoE/cleave, whereas MM would use 2 GCD's and people would be out (that's how fast people were supposed to be broken during progression). Obviously, all guilds run slightly different strats and pull slightly different numbers, so maybe your BM hunters had time to Beast Cleave MC'd targets, but in my guild we would have them broken in 2 GCDs, again furthering MM as slightly ahead of BM.

- - - Updated - - -

I can't tell if you don't know how to optimize BM dmg or you haven't done mythic. Either way...

M Ursoc, hit the bear clone while main bear is charging, no dps loss.

M Guarm, don't use cds during charge, pretty much no dps loss.

M Odyn, BM target switching from boss to one add has never been that big of a problem. One KC takes the pet+hati to the target. BM will carry phase 3 dps.

M Ursoc is slightly different in that there is an add, main reason I didn't put mythic Ursoc. There's also times where the add is not up every charge, which again equals dps downtime.
M Gaurm, your pet not hitting the boss, no ability usage or with during a charge is still downtime compared to a MM who has almost completely full with the exception of the disengage to get to mid at the start of a charge. So you state no CD's during charge yet don't recognize downtime as a dps loss, makes no sense.
As I stated with Odyn, if you have BW up, your pet can get from add to add without too much of a problem, outside of that window though your pet has travel time, which again, equates to no damage during outside of auto attacks and CS's from the Hunter. MM can either just turn the camera or be slightly better and hit 2-3 targets with SW and MS procs. You can say BM carried p3 damage, but again, at the time, MM was not so far behind ST from BM that it matters that much. You also state p3 damage carry but completely ignore the difference MM does in the other 2 phases.
Again, I'm not stating that BM is shit to play, I'm stating that the style of almost all fights between EN and TOV made MM shine far above BM in almost all circumstances.

- - - Updated - - -

As far as incoming nerfs after these changes, I don't think they (if they even happen) will be as big as people think. Keep in mind, these changes are only "huge" buffs to people without shoulders at this point in the game. For everyone else they are only decent to good buffs depending on skill level as most are QoL changes and skill will come into play as how people handle the focus gen over time from DF changes and if they get the extra ability usage out of it properly.
So for the casual, run of the mill playerbase, these will be decent buffs, where the more hardcore player mindset will potentially see a much bigger damage increase from proper management of abilities (barring the 2 stack baseline change obviously).

[Mavick]

Out of all those you pick one fight to try and justify the difference? Also, speaking of Nyth, you stated 2 GCD's just to get to where they needed to be and then start their good AoE/cleave, whereas MM would use 2 GCD's and people would be out (that's how fast people were supposed to be broken during progression). Obviously, all guilds run slightly different strats and pull slightly different numbers, so maybe your BM hunters had time to Beast Cleave MC'd targets, but in my guild we would have them broken in 2 GCDs, again furthering MM as slightly ahead of BM.

I picked one fight because it was tiring after just one. I've played both MM and BM on all those fights, so whether I decide to go through your entire list or not, either way I know just how badly you're overstating it. I already stated MM cleave wasn't even necessary there because everyone was generally grouped, literally any class could cleave them out for progression purposes. Also, as an aside, BM could get a Stomp in before MM even got to Marked Shot if that's how you decided to play it. Personally, I didn't even bother with it, people got broken out instantly anyway because literally everyone cleaved them because hey, it was cleave time, who doesn't.

[Deleted]

I would be fine with taking a moderate damage nerf to keep these changes. BM's problem right now isn't its damage; it's the playstyle. BM is fully mobile, unlike any other ranged spec in the game. It's also very simple. Therefore it really shouldn't be outperforming ranged that are more complex and more immobile. I have been BM exclusively all expansion and I'm fine with that. As long as it's not utterly worthless like we had it in 6.2.

Mobility, simplicity, throughput. Pick two.

i have been BM exclusively too, and from my personal experience, the BM rotation cannot be called simple. Sure maybe it is not about APM but its about decision making on what button to press at that given moment. This you cannot teach to people. It is the reason why i cannot find any good weak auras that will work for me, and i imagine that the most raiders at high level have the same problem.
Instead our dmg output hangs on our ability to be able to look at many of your CDs as a whole before pressing our buttons. So if that cannot be formulated easily into a wea aura addon that i have my confirmation too that its not an easy rotation

[Bepples]

i have been BM exclusively too, and from my personal experience, the BM rotation cannot be called simple. Sure maybe it is not about APM but its about decision making on what button to press at that given moment. This you cannot teach to people. It is the reason why i cannot find any good weak auras that will work for me, and i imagine that the most raiders at high level have the same problem.
Instead our dmg output hangs on our ability to be able to look at many of your CDs as a whole before pressing our buttons. So if that cannot be formulated easily into a wea aura addon that i have my confirmation too that its not an easy rotation

The base rotation is extremely simple. There's no debating that.

There is complexity in the cooldown management. But the thing is, if you just stick with "use your cooldowns at the same time as Bestial Wrath", you won't exactly do 50% of the damage of someone who is thinking about Dire Frenzy stacks and the like. You'll do less, for sure, but you will not be too far from full potential. Whereas there are specs in the game that punish you severely for any fuckup; not just on the cooldown side of things but within the main rotation. That punishment absolutely makes BM easy in comparison.

If you looked at Bards in FFXIV 2.0, you had something like 5 cooldowns to manage; all at different cooldown durations and all on the GCD. Added to that, you had a dot and a debuff to maintain. It was also fully mobile, so it's a lot of multitasking. The spec was far more involved than BM is right now; you couldn't just ignore most of the more subtle rules. Granted, they later fucked over Bard and made it immobile to make the casters happy (Bard did less damage in general than a Black Mage and people who previously played casters didn't like that compromise, so they instead chose to take away their one class just so casters could have all the ranged classes..sounds kind of like melee Survival). But the mobility was more balanced because moving while doing full DPS actually took a lot of multitasking ability. BM simply doesn't.

[Deleted]

Man, telling me to shut up but we're back to the same shitty arguments we had at EN. 'MM is better. No, BM is! No, we have logs to prove MM is better! No, it's padding! No, you're a dummy, everything had to die so it's not padding!'

Seriously, it's like you guys just copy pasted what was posted back when EN came out.

[Segus1992]

No, they aren't. They should obviously be forbidden, by law, to do so.

The point you're missing is that they made a decision, that was so obviously retarded, and now they're getting cheers because they are saying "ok, ok, we're not doing it".

It's like that real ID thing they did years ago, where they would introduce the idea that your real name would be displayed on the forums. A shitstorn ensued, and they took it back, patting themselves on the back and playing the hero.

Same thing with the exalted for class mounts thing. They probably never intended to go through with it anyway, they just waited for people to be pissed off, so they could get cheered on for taking the requirement back.

Reverting a decision due to player feedback is something that is, sadly, worthy of praise when most similar companies couldn't give two shits about what their playerbase thinks.

[Khrux]

In this thread;

10% BM players happy
1% BM players unhappy
1% Surv players with nowhere else to post
88% MM players salty as fuck

One thing is for sure, BM will be nerfed in the week between Normal and Mythic ToS.

[HappyLuckBox]

Overall this is a fairly large buff to BM, since now BM will basically have access to 3 equipped legendaries instead of 2. Kind of sucks for MM hunters because they now will have to dump ap into BM to remain relevant.

[Dracodraco]

Overall this is a fairly large buff to BM, since now BM will basically have access to 3 equipped legendaries instead of 2. Kind of sucks for MM hunters because they now will have to dump ap into BM to remain relevant.

AP is 100% irrelevant as a barrier nowadays. The difference between having MM+BM at equal levels is having 55x2 vs 57x1 traits, so 400 main stat on your Concordance proc, with a 25% uptime, so... 100 Agility.

Likewise, even the highest AP hunter, bodybagg, "only" has 53 right now. That's 2.8B artifact power. When tomb comes out (either june 20 or 27), you'll have 43-44 AK. A full clear of Norm+Heroic+Mythic nighthold will at that point yield ~1.4B to ~1.7B Artifact power. Essentially, getting from 0 to 53 can be done in a single day the week tomb comes out, so it's not like anyone will have any issue at all switching specs.

(This is a good thing, for those wondering; It means we're free to actually change to W/E spec suits the encounter the best. Add to it that those of us that plays actively will have every legendary for both BM and MM by tomb with these current droprates, and we're essentially going back to being able to play W/E we want).

[Makro]

This is a good thing, for those wondering; It means we're free to actually change to W/E spec suits the encounter the best. Add to it that those of us that plays actively will have every legendary for both BM and MM by tomb with these current droprates, and we're essentially going back to being able to play W/E we want).

After ~8 months of farming we will finally beat Legion's design!

[Khrux]

Essentially, getting from 0 to 53 can be done in a single day the week tomb comes out, so it's not like anyone will have any issue at all switching specs.

This can't be stated enough, I keep trying to tell my guild their wasting their time spamming mythic+ all day every day since 7.2 while I sit at 44-46 across all 3 specs and only logging in for raid nights now.(Gul'dan will die this week and i'll pretty much logout for a month!)

If your *farming* AP right now, your doing it wrong :P

[Geran]

No, it is not just like melee because a) we can still do at least some damage from ranged without our pet attacking (albeit minimal) and b) our pet is often charging between targets during Kill Command, even before this upcoming buff. BM can also do damage consistently from 40-100 yards away and behind Line of Sight. These are big advantages over other ranged specs.

It is SIMILAR to some degree to melee, but the types of mechanics that affect melee are different to those that affect ranged. Melee do sometimes have to outrange the target but not often. Ranged mechanics consistently require ranged DPS to move and thus lose DPS. BM doesn't lose any damage from moving. These are clear advantages that other ranged don't have so it would be unfair for BM.

Now, logs are going to be more favourable to BM than sims because most sims are done without any movement and so BM's mobility advantages don't show there. However it looks like BM is performing better than some caster specs even though many of them are more complex and more immobile. It's understandable how that doesn't sit well with them.

- - - Updated - - -

Until some fixes ago (dont remember if it was 7.1.5 or 7.2, but i'm inclined to think it was the latest), if you chose dire frenzy (which by conception should be the ST choice) pet COULDN'T attack target if he was moving, the pet needed him to be immobile to be able to use the attack, losing so many stacks making the talent pure garbage. (they added the charge portion to fix that).

That made BM (with that particular talent) a 80% melee spec( with the exception of CS and autoshot, all the damage came from the pet, which is melee), lowering the actually low damage further. Through iterations (and fixes and the right legendaries) now BM is a decent dps spec(far from best ingame) .

[ihatepeople]

Great changes (or reverts lol) for sure, now if only they could make chim shot great again (I'm still salty that they took it from MM). It would be a wonderful year for BM.

[Bepples]

Until some fixes ago (dont remember if it was 7.1.5 or 7.2, but i'm inclined to think it was the latest), if you chose dire frenzy (which by conception should be the ST choice) pet COULDN'T attack target if he was moving, the pet needed him to be immobile to be able to use the attack, losing so many stacks making the talent pure garbage. (they added the charge portion to fix that).

That made BM (with that particular talent) a 80% melee spec( with the exception of CS and autoshot, all the damage came from the pet, which is melee), lowering the actually low damage further. Through iterations (and fixes and the right legendaries) now BM is a decent dps spec(far from best ingame) .

Yep, I remembered that. On the 7.0 PTR I wanted to try out some battlegrounds and I tried Dire Frenzy at one point. I was almost completely worthless. If the player was moving AT ALL (which is approximately 100% of the time) I couldn't use Dire Frenzy.

I'm happy they are fixing all this, but it's still dumbfounding how Blizzard saw fit to release Hunters in the state they were in. It wasn't just low damage or bad design; it was flat out unfinished with many bugs. That, and the GCD going to 1.5 secs, made the entire class feel like shit. Dire Frenzy wasn't fully functional until pretty recently. What about the part where Killer Cobra didn't provide a reset until cobra shot hit the target (rather than on cast)? Shit like that was all over BM and MM. It's nuts how anyone could think that was an improvement over WoD class design, yet still people defend it to the death on these forums in the name of "class fantasy". What a fucking joke. All "class fantasy" has produced is unfinished classes with shit gameplay. We are praising Blizzard for this recent round of updates for BM; while it's nice, it shouldn't have taken them all of Alpha, Beta, and 8 months of Live for this to happen, and I'm confident that even with this set of changes it still won't be as fluid and engaging as MoP/WoD BM.

[ydraw]

No, it is not just like melee because a) we can still do at least some damage from ranged without our pet attacking (albeit minimal) and

Frost DKs can do more damage from range than a BM hunter without a pet can.