"Pay to Win"

[Raelbo]

But it does affect your game experience, or at least it potentially could, because the existance of boosts, i do think prevent players from learning to play the game properly for getting those rewards the way it is suppossed to get them, raiding in a core, and knowing how to do that.

I would argue that this is their problem, not yours.

It has 2 effects that i think are bad to the game, the first one is that those players never get to grasp the fun of learning to play in challenging content,

Again, that is their problem. Also, there is no reason to believe that said players would bother with the content even if they couldn't buy the boost.

the second one is that because of that and because people seem to have less and less patience with wiping and learning, recruiting people is harder than it should be.

While I understand this concern, I don't think this is the fault of people buying boosts. If someone chooses to buy boosts to get raid gear, mounts, achievements etc, then it likely means they can't or won't raid properly. Either way they were likely never contenders for recruitment. And even if they were, do you really to recruit someone who is only grudgingly doing raiding to get some gear? If they would rather pay gold than do the actual content, they're not likely to show the kind of committment most guilds are looking for anyway...

I could be wrong and it could be that without being able to buy those rewards via boosting those people would quit the game, but a MMORPG about making gold for getting rewards, it is a gameplay design i am not really very interested in.

Which is fine. One of the points of an MMO is to provide a number of ways for players to get fun out of the game. Not everyone has to enjoy and participate in every aspect of the game, simply the parts that they do enjoy.

The risk/reward structure is very important in a game, so people is interested in challenging content.

Personally I think that if people are not interested in doing challenging content then they shouldn't be doing it. I get that for some people, part of the fun of beating the challenge is getting to show off (with a mount, title, fancy gear etc), but still, they do have a desire to do the actual content. I certainly don't want to raid with people who have no desire to actually raid and engage challenging content. If all they're after is some gear, or a mount, or achievement, then I am 100% fine with them buying a boost to get those things. We can fill our raid spot with someone who wants to be there.

[Raelbo]

What is YOUR definition of "pay to win"?

When paying real money gives one a competitive advantage over the player electing not to pay.

As it relates to WoW, do you believe the game is now pay to win, or not at all pay to win?

Not at all pay to win. The things for which you can pay real money in the game are not going to make an iota of difference to a competitive player.

[Yamuri]

It's pay to get a head start with the gold. You can't really win with gold in the AH, sure you can spend a few million gold to get ilvl over 900 but that's just irrational with the prices. For the rich people out there, meh, theres not enough to afford that and they are still not beating the heroic raiding gear.

[Eleccybubb]

Two of your favorite mounts came up BEFORE the shop shit, when the actual work was going into in-game mounts. None of your favorite mounts is newer than 5 years. Mounts on the shop look much better. But of course there are a lot of people that say Mercedes is shit, they prefer Renault and Fiat

Again best is down to your entirely subjective opinion. Best looking is down to taste. There are post store mounts that in my opinion look pretty good. You are not forced to buy these mounts. They offer no extra bonuses from the others. And again "best looking" is down to taste.

[Raelbo]

It's pay to get a head start with the gold. You can't really win with gold in the AH, sure you can spend a few million gold to get ilvl over 900 but that's just irrational with the prices. For the rich people out there, meh, theres not enough to afford that and they are still not beating the heroic raiding gear.

Yeah. Let's be honest here: The people who have a lot of gold in this game got it by playing the AH. People who spend $$ buying tokens do so because they have no gold at all. It's not giving them a head start over anyone, it's simply ensuring that they have enough to do some very basic things in game. For anyone who actually puts any effort into the game it's very easy to be way ahead of token sellers in terms of gold.

[Schizoide]

Since Jaylock was banned again (yay!) I feel OK posting in this thread.

You can spend out of game money for an in-game advantage-- not just cosmetic stuff or convenience. Therefore WoW is pay2win right now.

What it comes down to is a matter of degree. You can buy gold for real money. You can spend that gold on BoE equipment and to pay guilds for runs, etc. Is that OK? Well, that's a decision you need to make for yourself.

Me personally, I'm absolutely 100% against it. I hate it. But it hasn't compromised the game sufficiently to get me to quit.

[Baine]

I dig the avatar.

Indeed, I dig his new avatar.

[Teri]

Since Jaylock was banned again (yay!) I feel OK posting in this thread.

You can spend out of game money for an in-game advantage-- not just cosmetic stuff or convenience. Therefore WoW is pay2win right now.

What it comes down to is a matter of degree. You can buy gold for real money. You can spend that gold on BoE equipment and to pay guilds for runs, etc. Is that OK? Well, that's a decision you need to make for yourself.

Me personally, I'm absolutely 100% against it. I hate it. But it hasn't compromised the game sufficiently to get me to quit.

As long as it uses gold within the economy and not directly from the endless void, I never consider wow tokens as Pay 2 Win.

Buying levels either. It just saves time. Buying stuff between players/guild with gold is also basicly buying other people's time or BoEs (titanforging/multiple raid difficulties even promotes it further).

Now if you could directly buy mythic quality gear for dollars/euro, without bnet balance or middle-man, that would make me quit instantly.

If there was just 1 ultra hard raid mode with the best gear, carries would be far less common until serious nerfs/overgearing.

[Schizoide]

You can spend real money for an in-game advantage. That's what pay2win actually means.

It's a matter of degree for you too. You aren't bothered by what Blizzard is doing right now. That's fine.

[Zuben]

If you can buy stuff that gives you a serious edge against players who don't pay up. APB is a good example: you can buy overpowered golden weapons with much higher accuracy and damage than regular weapons (which are slowly unlocked through a progression system), then there are rocket launchers that one-shot cars. The game's nature is GTA-like, so a lot of the missions have you pursue enemy players with your car. Imagine doing that, when the car you're pursuing has a player bolted on its roof, firing rockets at you, while driving with premium speed.

[Teri]

You can spend real money for an in-game advantage. That's what pay2win actually means.

It's a matter of degree for you too. You aren't bothered by what Blizzard is doing right now. That's fine.

Yes, but buying BoEs/Carries is buying from other players, loot still has to drop first, you couldn't buy Mythic Gul'dan loot directly from blizzard the second 7.1.5 hit the servers.

WoW tokens is also buying other player's gold, if blizz took everyones gold away, wow tokens would be back at the default which was like 30000.

Yes it's a time advantage, and takes 0 effort to get millions of gold now if you spend money. But people who earned gold through other legit means can buy the same carries/BoEs. But once again if it would be seriously abused and people bought hundreds of wow tokens for gold, the token to gold ratio would decline rapidly. It's also player-controlled economy, they know a BoE for 5 million won't sell.

You can't for example buy a golden rocket mount that goes 500% speed, or Legendary relics that give 100 itemlevels with $$ or €€.

[Vorecien]

"Thats loose. The service to buy heroic NH epics is there for convenience since its not mythic loot. Who really wants to grind those epics again and again"

/s

I don't understand your perspective. World of Warcraft currently resides in its largest revenue stage since its launch in 2004. Blizzard can pay for more servers, hire more engineers, developers, and designers to give us more epic stuff! The world is falling apart, yeah?

If you want to believe that the game is a "pay to win" MMO, then go forth and do exactly that - it's certainly your prerogative.

[Raelbo]

You can spend real money for an in-game advantage. That's what pay2win actually means.

Not really. The generally accepted meaning of the term carries with it a number of negative connotations that place specific constraints on how it is defined. It means that spending real money will give you a significant in-game advantage that will help you to win. Some vague and arbitrary "advantage" does not qualify.

Of course this isn't helpful without defining what "winning" means. In WoW it means beating your opponents in a meaningful contest, either PvE or PvP at a competitive level. Securing a top X% PvP spot for a season, or achieving a significant PvE world first objective would count.

In a pay2win context, "winning" is not likely unless you pay the required money to obtain the advantage, or you are significantly superior to your competition and can overcome a large handicap.

In practical terms, finding a way to translate gold from selling tokens into a sufficiently competitive advantage to change any significant competitive PvE or PvP outcome is highly unlikely.

Therefore, no, what Blizzard is doing right now does not classify under any reasonably accepted definition of what people mean they say pay2win with all the negative connotations attached to it.

That being said, people who play with semantics can make a contorted argument to say that being able to buy gold for $$ can be classified as some form of paying to win something. But really, if we're prepared to extend the accepted definition of pay2win to include what WoW currently offers, then the negative connotations attached to the traditional use of the term "pay2win" can no longer be assumed either.

[Deleted]

I've played pay to win games. They suck.

WoW is not pay to win. It's TIME to win. If you can invest your time instead of your money most people are on even footing once you've paid the sub and got internet etc.

There's an argument that people with more free time have an easier time in the game, but to me it's better than the pay to win format. There's an extreme variance in the people who pay and the people who do not, where the time system is a bit more tier-ed.

[Schizoide]

In a pay2win context, "winning" is not likely unless you pay the required money to obtain the advantage, or you are significantly superior to your competition and can overcome a large handicap.

I disagree with this. Any advantage is pay2win. What you're talking about is particularly egregious pay2win, enough so many players are willing to quit over it.

Of course it's not like we can point to an official definition, so your mileage may definitely vary!

[Softbottom]

haha this is amazing, I mean, your know that "2" stands for "To" right?

a p2w game is the one that you need "PAY TO WIN". In this case, in wow, you dont need to pay besides the sub. Ask the ones doing the MYTHIC NH carry if they have spent money paying carry's from other guilds.

You can pay anyone to play a game for you in any game. I could pay a friend real money to have him logged in on a game that i own so he can farm stuff for me.

"your know" makes sense too pal.

[Deleted]

It may not be meaningful to you, but that's the common definition of it within the industry. Take it or leave it.

It is not meaningful to anyone. Just because according to you it's "the common definition within the industry" doesn't mean anything. So I'll be leaving it as an invalid definition, and continue using the best valid definition I know of: "Ability to buy an in game advantage with money."

[Elim Garak]

NOT p2w:

Person A plays 24/7 and gets a set of 925 gear
Person B pays money and gets a set of 925 gear

P2W:

Person A plays 24/7 and gets a set of 925 gear
Person B pays money and gets a legendary set of legendary 9001 gear that is unavailable to person A

[Deleted]

And you'll continue to be wrong. Good luck with that!

And you continue to have no argument whatsoever. And it is not a question of being "right" or "wrong", there is no authority that can give a definitive defition of pay2win. That's the whole point of this thread, in case you missed it.

- - - Updated - - -

NOT p2w:

Person A plays 24/7 and gets a set of 925 gear
Person B pays money and gets a set of 925 gear

Also not p2w according to your definition:

Person A plays 24/7 for a lifetime and never gets anything but white gear, but theoretically has a 0.00000000001% chance of getting any item in the game.
Person B pays money and gets whatever gear they want.

[Elim Garak]

And you continue to have no argument whatsoever. And it is not a question of being "right" or "wrong", there is no authority that can give a definitive defition of pay2win. That's the whole point of this thread, in case you missed it.

There's authority in games industry. Because it's the definition from games industry. And it says you are wrong.

Also not p2w according to your definition:

Person A plays 24/7 for a lifetime and never gets anything but white gear, but theoretically has a 0.00000000001% chance of getting any item in the game.
Person B pays money and gets whatever gear they want.

Correct, not p2w. Also extremely unlikely scenario. Although even in that scenario there will always be a Person C who gets lucky and gets the best gear without paying. That's why it's not p2w. Nobody cares about Person A's personal experience with lady luck. There are always losers even if drop rates are in integers. That's perfectly fine.