Rip m+

[Bowshewicz]

I don't understand why anyone would dislike this change. It's beneficial at every skill and gear level, as long as you aren't simply farming low keys.

If you are playing the highest level mythics you can do, you already don't get bonus chests. Under the new system, that means you get three pieces of loot instead of two.
If you're able to +3 a level 10 key and you want to push as high as you can, you should see more players in your pugs because the incentive to stop progressing is gone.
If you are trying to gear up, you should have more success finding groups because fewer players will insist on an assured +3 group.

Again, the only players who lose out here are the players who got comfortable running low level keys at a high enough gear level to brainlessly +3 -- and who for some reason wanted the extra drops even though that loot wasn't useful for them.

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I honestly think this is by design on the part of the devs. They want high ilvl people in the low ilvl scene. They've done a few things to make this clear - one of the was their original design of making keystones scarce so that low ilvl people could entice high ilvl people to join, and the second was when they made valor and now runes only drop from lfr.

This has a few beneficial effects from their perspective - I think by far the key one is it makes it so there are a lot more tanks/healers available to run low ilvl content. As a relatively high ilvl tank I can run keystones all day and all night, only joining groups who already have 3 dps and a healer. DPS can't do that. And if I do that, it means all the low level people I join with because they have a good keystone have a much easier time finding groups.

It has a few warping impacts though - for one, I find it really annoying that lower level stuff is more rewarding than high level stuff, for another, I think it's bad that people in low level guilds are better off finding pugs to complete the keystone than doing it with guildies. These changes are working against that, but I think they also mean that it's going to be pretty hard to get a group going if you're undergeared.

I agree that the original design was probably to keep high ilvl players in lower content. However, it seems like it backfired a bit and many high level players aren't even allowing low level players to join their groups.

I think you'll see the opposite effect on finding a group if you're undergeared. Since a +3 is the same loot as a +1, anyone who was hoping for loot won't really care what kind of players he gets in his pug.

[Onikaroshi]

I don't understand why anyone would dislike this change. It's beneficial at every skill and gear level, as long as you aren't simply farming low keys.

If you are playing the highest level mythics you can do, you already don't get bonus chests. Under the new system, that means you get three pieces of loot instead of two.
If you're able to +3 a level 10 key and you want to push as high as you can, you should see more players in your pugs because the incentive to stop progressing is gone.
If you are trying to gear up, you should have more success finding groups because fewer players will insist on an assured +3 group.

Again, the only players who lose out here are the players who got comfortable running low level keys at a high enough gear level to brainlessly +3 -- and who for some reason wanted the extra drops even though that loot wasn't useful for them.

Lol, it won't change the requirements in GF. People will still want to finish as smooth and fast as possible, hence 900+ ilvl AotC Normal NH. It hurts basically everyone. Any time you 2/3 chest you get less loot, there's still no reason to push beyond the cap (10 now 15 after tomb mythic releases), and those who DO want to push are hurt by the depletion mechanic. Right now if you do a +21 vault and fail it depletes, you can try again to finish on time and you then complete a +21 vault. 7.2.5 you have 2 options, end the run before completion to drop it to a +20 and waste time doing it again, or finish it and get a RANDOM +20 which turns into a RANDOM +21, you could get HoV and well... fuck that.

The changes hurt everyone.

[Magneto]

Some people love it, some hate it, just the same as everything. If they remove it you'd have the same amount of people bitching about it being gone as you do bitching about it existing. It's you're ALWAYS shitting on one set of customers to please another.

for a company such as blizzard it is easily predictable what people will like or dislike. cognitive science as well as cognitive psychology are the go-to sources of information pre actual game design. also one shouldn't forget startegies such as naom chomskys 10 or Robert Greene'S 48 laws, which influences what todays decision makers want to know and do. controlled opposition is something we need, hence blue vs red - horde vs alliance.

[Onikaroshi]

How are you this dense? Who even mentioned failing a key on purpose? If you can do the key, great. If you fail the timer, you still get a key. No loot is wasted. You always have a keystone. Seriously how do you not understand this?

I'm sure it's nowhere near as efficient too. Good, that's the point. Farming lower level keys shouldn't be more efficient than doing a +15, and now it won't be. If you find that inconvenient, then that's perfect because it's absolutely supposed to be.

Stop whinging.

What's going to happen is either people stop doing mythic+ because effort vs reward is being fucked (from 7.2 to 7.2.5, if it was always like that it wouldn't have made a difference) or people will do loot cap (10/15) get their three pieces, enter the 11/12/13(16/17/18), reset instance to "deplete" it back to 10/15 and do that one ad naseum, it won't make people who don't want to push, push, because they're no real incentive to push, and with the loot reduction there's no real reason to run M+ unless you're pushing.

[Bowshewicz]

Lol, it won't change the requirements in GF. People will still want to finish as smooth and fast as possible, hence 900+ ilvl AotC Normal NH. It hurts basically everyone. Any time you 2/3 chest you get less loot, there's still no reason to push beyond the cap (10 now 15 after tomb mythic releases), and those who DO want to push are hurt by the depletion mechanic. Right now if you do a +21 vault and fail it depletes, you can try again to finish on time and you then complete a +21 vault. 7.2.5 you have 2 options, end the run before completion to drop it to a +20 and waste time doing it again, or finish it and get a RANDOM +20 which turns into a RANDOM +21, you could get HoV and well... fuck that.

The changes hurt everyone.

Providing a bonus for completing a dungeon extra fast was a good idea on paper. The problem was that players weren't treating it like a bonus. We were taking 3-chests for granted and a lot of people felt that it wasn't worth it to run higher keys, even keys that the group could easily complete on time, because there would be less loot. This caused a lot of players who were capable of 10s to hang back in 6s and 7s.

This is bad design: players should be incentivized to complete higher content, not farm easy dungeons.

As far as the new depleted key mechanic, I do agree that it creates a setback for players who have a dedicated mythic group and fail a key. However, it's a godsend to players who pug their high level keys.

[Ahraa]

I don't think anyone at a high level actually runs m+ to target the gear.. its more for the AP, and any gear received is a bonus.

Because they aren't changing the AP, m+ will still be viable. So... not rip? m+.

[Noxina]

You are a delusional casual. Stuff titanforges 910+ all the time. Any full run of NH on personal loot on any level and you'll see one or two items titanforge 910+. Its disgusting.




Completely agree man.

As a hunter main, I've been farming M Ursoc for the entire expansion for a chance at a high titanforged Bloodthirsty Instinct because it is literally God's gift to hunters. Do I enjoy it...HELL NO.

Nice hyperbole. 910+ Titanforge is extremely rare, and that you see one or two items every raid is just a right out lie. 890-900, perhaps, but not 910. Show me screen shots and I believe you though.
Except if you are talking about Mythic? Because then 910 is a common warforge, which indeed isn't rare at all.

[Onikaroshi]

Providing a bonus for completing a dungeon extra fast was a good idea on paper. The problem was that players weren't treating it like a bonus. We were taking 3-chests for granted and a lot of people felt that it wasn't worth it to run higher keys, even keys that the group could easily complete on time, because there would be less loot. This had the side effect of holding a lot of players who were capable of 10s to hang back in 6s and 7s.

This is bad design: players should be incentivized to complete higher content, not farm easy dungeons.

As far as the new depleted key mechanic, I do agree that it creates a setback for players who have a dedicated mythic group and fail a key. However, it's a godsend to players who pug their high level keys.

Yea the depletion thing is win/lose, don't think there's a way around that, it sucks for pugs now, and it will be somewhat annoying for pushers with the change, overall though its positive because they're more puggers than pushers.

It's hard to find a win in the loot reduction though, it just kills the effort vs. reward they have now. If anything keep it this way but give it six random pieces on successful completion (most people were three chesting anyway) or give it 5 pieces with 1 per person. 3 per group just deincentivizes the system for the majority of people who never pushed and just did up to max ilvl (10/15).

I'm beginning to think this is what blizz wants, they're pulling 6.2 demo lock on us: They have no desire to carry M+ over to 8.0 for whatever reason so they want to slowly kill peoples attachment to it so it doesn't hurt so bad when it's removed.

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I don't think anyone at a high level actually runs m+ to target the gear.. its more for the AP, and any gear received is a bonus.

Because they aren't changing the AP, m+ will still be viable. So... not rip? m+.

The numerous BiS trinkets and relics that come ONLY from M+ would like a word with you.

[Onikaroshi]

I've already said this, but to reiterate, and answer both of you: AP rewards need exponentially in line with time investment. Ilvl can't scale infinitely for obvious reasons, so AP has to go up instead. The only other option would be to have higher keystones award extra pieces of loot in line with the time it takes to do them, but I can see that potentially causing problems

AP is not really a reward most people doing this care about though, AP has an effective soft cap based on AK. I don't know how to incentivize pushing high level M+ but hurting the people who only do ilvl cap isn't the way to go about anything.

Edit: Just to avoid confusion I mean people wouldn't push M+ for AP, obviously people do farm AP from M+ (though not as much anymore)

[Onikaroshi]

I'd prefer if ap went away, same as legendaries. Both systems reward you for doing a lot of easy content instead of harder content that takes longer, and there's really no good way to fix that.

They've eliminated most of the problem with ap by making ak scaling so insane, but that really just means ap is kinda pointless now.

Actually, legendaries reward you for doing more content in general. You're not going to have all your legendaries doing nothing but Emmisaries, but a healthy dose of raiding, m+, world content and you'll be much closer to getting more.

[Bisque]

If it curbs the "+3 BRH need 905" i'll be happy. AND yes I can make my own groups and invite whoever I want- and I have done so, but I can still comment on the ridiculous "+5 need 895" etc... no, you don't need 905 for +3, 895 for a +4 etc... So I can see blizz's logic in making the M+ adjustments- whether it actually works out this way if/when its implemented remains to be seen but I appreciate blizz for trying.

[smashing]

If it curbs the "+3 BRH need 905" i'll be happy. AND yes I can make my own groups and invite whoever I want- and I have done so, but I can still comment on the ridiculous "+5 need 895" etc... no, you don't need 905 for +3, 895 for a +4 etc... So I can see blizz's logic in making the M+ adjustments- whether it actually works out this way if/when its implemented remains to be seen but I appreciate blizz for trying.

Thats just wishfull thinking. The reality is even if the rewards were exactly the same, people would still prefer the 905 over the 895.
The ammount of dps'ers queueing is always high so things wont change at all, at least in that matter.

[Bowshewicz]

Yea the depletion thing is win/lose, don't think there's a way around that, it sucks for pugs now, and it will be somewhat annoying for pushers with the change, overall though its positive because they're more puggers than pushers.

It's hard to find a win in the loot reduction though, it just kills the effort vs. reward they have now. If anything keep it this way but give it six random pieces on successful completion (most people were three chesting anyway) or give it 5 pieces with 1 per person. 3 per group just deincentivizes the system for the majority of people who never pushed and just did up to max ilvl (10/15).

I'm beginning to think this is what blizz wants, they're pulling 6.2 demo lock on us: They have no desire to carry M+ over to 8.0 for whatever reason so they want to slowly kill peoples attachment to it so it doesn't hurt so bad when it's removed.

Six pieces is probably more loot than they want to give out for a single dungeon, especially considering that level 15 keystone dungeons could be giving level 900 loot base and players are already completing them. I believe a lot of players feel that Mythic+ is a "cheap" way to get high-level gear that was historically only available from raiding, so it makes sense for Blizzard to react by toning things down a bit.

Mythic+ most likely won't exist in 8.0, but I'm hoping that something similar will fill its niche -- similar to how Mythic+ evolved from Challenge Dungeons. Perhaps they will design something in the next xpac that allows high level dungeon runs to be even more relevant.

[darkwarrior42]

Equally, I would like to see something like more loot dropping from harder chests, which again would make doing harder content a more efficient gearing method thereby also rewarding skill over time invested.

I tend to agree, but this is an idea that is mutually exclusive with Blizzard's current design philosophy. As long as you can randomly have gear upgrade, there's always going to be incentive for quantity over quality, because quantity can become quality.

I can think of a half dozen ways to fix the system, but none of them work within the framework of WoW.

[Hydrofluoric]

i like it.
This change actually put ALLOT less stress on running the m+ as quickly as possible. As long as you'll beat the timer you'll get the full rewards.

i love it

I felt as if the purpose of Mythic+'s were supposed to be challenging and stressful though?
They are a pseudo-answer to challenge dungeons and I'm not sure how I feel about Blizzard making yet another difficult piece of content more casual friendly through the means of de-incentivizing the better players (meaning them no longer proving more loot the faster you go).

I understand the issue they're trying to tackle but I don't believe removing the fast pace of mythic+'s will solve it.

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Nice hyperbole. 910+ Titanforge is extremely rare, and that you see one or two items every raid is just a right out lie. 890-900, perhaps, but not 910. Show me screen shots and I believe you though.
Except if you are talking about Mythic? Because then 910 is a common warforge, which indeed isn't rare at all.

I was running my fresh 110 Warlock through heroic Black Rook Hold. We pulled the first boss and I died from being distracted and standing in stuff, I was quite embarrassed as I'm in a mythic raiding guild. To make matters even worse I looted a 910 titanforged cloak from the boss. I had mixed feelings because it was an amazing piece of gear and extremely rare (at least for me, I've never had anything titanforge that high before) but I got from a heroic boss.. that I died on.

I've never felt so unsatisfied in such a major gear upgrade. I did absolutely nothing to deserve it while there are mythic raiders that would have drooled over it. I understand how RNG can be spontaneous and fun sometimes, but without a concrete way of obtaining this gear it feels cheap and unobtainable.

(My death during the fight doesn't really have anything to deal with the gear dropping, I just mentioned it so you got an idea of how I felt about the piece dropping. I also don't know what you guys are discussing, just wanted to share my experience)

[bmjclark]

People already spam run +8s-10s for the best gear available from mythic+ and 3 chest them. All this is is an extreme nerf to the amount of gear you get from mythic+ and also a kick in the balls to anyone who needed to pug groups because people no longer need your key, they can spam run their own. It doesn't encourage you to run higher mythic+s anymore than you're already encouraged to run higher mythic+s. I completely expect to see participation rates in mythic+ drop if these changes go through.

I literally play this game 80% for mythic+ and i really, really hope these changes don't go through.

[Zoldor]

"This is because, when we believed that Keystones would be rare, we didn’t want you to miss out on any of the loot you might have collected from the runs you were “skipping.”"

This statement is confusing. How the fuck did they think Keystones would be rare? Completing a +2 or +3 has been easy since EN LFR for anyone. Then the other 4 people get a keystone. I'm baffled as to how they thought Keystones would be rare, they give you a new one at the start of the week and any Mythic rewards one. They were never going to be rare especially as gear scaled.

Look at the previous system, Challenge Mode, some people ran them, most people boosted, but didn't double down on running them. You could do it for the prestige, but really that wasn't enough of a draw, hence the M+ system. The majority of people running M+ are in it for the rewards, honestly, sure there is probably a decent sized cluster of folks pushing keys, but I think a large percentage and easily the majority do it for the reward and people are going to max the reward effort equation.

"We’d originally imagined that getting ahold of a Keystone would be more of a barrier than it is," the justification they are throwing out is either just a bold faced lie or proof of being totally out of touch with the game. You get a key from Completing a Mythic dungeon, which is scaled for gear that was easily available 60 days in (I'm accounting for super casual folks here, whom I assume these changes are supposed to help in their delusional justifications) and then the catch up gear makes it basically that any fresh 110 can walk into a mythic for the most part. To lack the foresight and think Keys would be rare is nonsense.

I'm also not sure of this line either "players tend to look for lower-level Keystones that they can easily stomp through, instead of higher-level Keystones that are appropriately challenging for their gear and skill." For AP maybe?! but even then you are seeking 7 to 10 most of the time and boosting people, so I don't see how this is bad or how they didn't see it coming with the endless AP grind they created, but with the changes to raid AP and AK scaling this is going the way of the dodo as well. Who is out there going man we gotta roflstomp these +3s for that 3 chest AP/gear?! The only time I do low levels is if I miss a key run the previous week and no one is around with a high key I'll do a mythic and get a key and they start moving my key up so I can get my 10 in with some friends (try and run a group of 5s 10).

I don't have a lot of interest in pushing keys to the max, I'm in it for the reward, and I'm not sure how these changes actually make anything better for lower geared people. They still have to get keys, they still have to find a group, and they still have to complete the dungeon off and on, but for the most part unless they nerf the shit out of the AP rewards further people are still going to over gear the content, I mean its almost like people don't want to run the same dungeons over and over for years the slow hard way and are trying to get to the reward the quickest way possible.

Their justification, lack of foresight, and general ignorance on the situation is rather confusing. I think it is just a way for them to avoid saying, we are nerfing the rewards since you massively over gear it, and this is the simplest way to do that. It is like saying "We see a decline in M+ when it is Teaming, Fortified, Quaking so we are going to make it that every week so that people have to run the affix"

[ItsTiddles]

As someone who mainly plays for m+ and enjoys pushing keys, I'm not completely against the changes. I can't decide until I've played it and feel what's different, but I don't think it's the end of m+. Sure, there is the risk of "depleting" a key that is doable and getting a bad dungeon as a result, but that risk is there anytime your key changes.

Right now if you do a +21 vault and fail it depletes, you can try again to finish on time and you then complete a +21 vault. 7.2.5 you have 2 options, end the run before completion to drop it to a +20 and waste time doing it again, or finish it and get a RANDOM +20 which turns into a RANDOM +21, you could get HoV and well... fuck that.

Say you deplete a vault 21 tonight, re-do it in time, then you end up with a HoV 22 key. Fuck that, right? There's nothing to do with that key if you cannot complete it. Either way there is a chance for your new key to suck. Current m+, doing 2 dungeons (1 depleted/1 repeated in time) you get 1 chest(2 items)/a key nobody wants. New m+, doing 2 dungeons (1 depleted/1 new in time) you get 2 chests(5 items total)/a key nobody wants. I'll take more gear/ap for the the same risk of a dead key.
*using above scenario*

[Army Dreamer]

Was fun while it lasted.

What fun?

[Onikaroshi]

As someone who mainly plays for m+ and enjoys pushing keys, I'm not completely against the changes. I can't decide until I've played it and feel what's different, but I don't think it's the end of m+. Sure, there is the risk of "depleting" a key that is doable and getting a bad dungeon as a result, but that risk is there anytime your key changes.


Say you deplete a vault 21 tonight, re-do it in time, then you end up with a HoV 22 key. Fuck that, right? There's nothing to do with that key if you cannot complete it. Either way there is a chance for your new key to suck. Current m+, doing 2 dungeons (1 depleted/1 repeated in time) you get 1 chest(2 items)/a key nobody wants. New m+, doing 2 dungeons (1 depleted/1 new in time) you get 2 chests(5 items total)/a key nobody wants. I'll take more gear/ap for the the same risk of a dead key.
*using above scenario*

But in the case stated 21 is the groups new max, regardless of what they get from the 21 key they've surpassed their previous. This is what I meant in the scenario, not just some random point before the key they're trying for. There's either much more time waste, or much more time waste and RNG in the new system.