Stat Growth and Legion, Another Stat Squish Incoming?

[Talvindius]

Why would they do a squish in the middle of an expansion?

Because number are approaching what they were at the end of EN, and they did a squish before NH because secondaries were getting too high.

So same reason as the last one.

[Halefire94]

Numbers are numbers.... if you have issues with them put a k or an m after them...

there's zero reason to squish.

You are right numbers are just numbers- its not big numbers that I am concerned with. Reread my OP.

It is how fast we are getting to these big numbers. We have gained almost 200 ilvls from the beginning of the expac, and we haven't even started the second tier yet. There needs to be some kind of squish, and power gained has to slow down. It isn't sustainable

[Onikaroshi]

You are right numbers are just numbers- its not big numbers that I am concerned with. Reread my OP.

It is how fast we are getting to these big numbers. We have gained almost 200 ilvls from the beginning of the expac, and we haven't even started the second tier yet. There needs to be some kind of squish, and power gained has to slow down. It isn't sustainable

How isn't it sustainable? we aren't going to hit any ceilings for a long time, hell, just change everything to %s if you care that much. I prefer the exponential growth were every upgrade feels like an upgrade. Going up 1k dps between tiers would feel so... wrong....

[Halefire94]

How isn't it sustainable? we aren't going to hit any ceilings for a long time, hell, just change everything to %s if you care that much. I prefer the exponential growth were every upgrade feels like an upgrade. Going up 1k dps between tiers would feel so... wrong....

Going up 1k DPS is fine since would be all relative. A few expacs ago going up 1k DPS was really good considering healthpools. Again, it is not about the big numbers. I don't give a shit about millions or billions of damage, it is all relative. It is how fast the upgrades are coming.

Example: People are 5 manning normal Emerald Nightmare. That shouldn't happen at this tier. People didn't even 5 man Highmaul when BRF released. EN is still technically current tier.

It shouldn't be this fast. When you upgrade so fast, you need to continually get more powerful at an even faster rate. That is how its unsustainable.

[Schattenlied]

Not really that concerning. Regardless if you do say 250 damage to a mob with 25000 hp, or 2500 to a mob with 250000, it's still the same shit. Besides, I thought Blizzard said that we'd be getting a stat squish every few xpacs, or am I mistaken?

The concern is that stats within the same expansion have scaled beyond out of control... Under no circumstances should a current expansion raid be 5 mannable because of gear scaling going out of control.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Going up 1k DPS is fine since would be all relative. A few expacs ago going up 1k DPS was really good considering healthpools. Again, it is not about the big numbers. I don't give a shit about millions or billions of damage, it is all relative. It is how fast the upgrades are coming.

Example: People are 5 manning normal Emerald Nightmare. That shouldn't happen at this tier. People didn't even 5 man Highmaul when BRF released. EN is still technically current tier.

It shouldn't be this fast. When you upgrade so fast, you need to continually get more powerful at an even faster rate. That is how its unsustainable.

They also have to balance it so an upgrade isn't so small(That's the worse case scenario to what you want). Blizzard sometimes works in extremes so you get the idea. I honestly wouldn't care too much(I say this right now, I might feel different later) if we went to vanilla level damage numbers and such.

[Schattenlied]

I remember when WotLK first came out top guilds cleared Naxx still wearing their Sunwell epics. Probably has something to do with that.

I see nothing wrong with that, at all.

Also I'm fairly certain they didn't clear it, they just started it in them because they didn't need to replace any of it while leveling.

Quest greens shouldn't replace final tier epics from the previous expansion, TBC was the same way, people were starting Kara in T2/3 gear.

[Onikaroshi]

Going up 1k DPS is fine since would be all relative. A few expacs ago going up 1k DPS was really good considering healthpools. Again, it is not about the big numbers. I don't give a shit about millions or billions of damage, it is all relative. It is how fast the upgrades are coming.

Example: People are 5 manning normal Emerald Nightmare. That shouldn't happen at this tier. People didn't even 5 man Highmaul when BRF released. EN is still technically current tier.

It shouldn't be this fast. When you upgrade so fast, you need to continually get more powerful at an even faster rate. That is how its unsustainable.

Still not unsustainable, the ceiling is far away it doesn't even matter at this point. And who cares about en, it may be "current tier" but it was old news as soon as nh released.

Point being though, a squish is not technically needed and would be a development time waste at this point.

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I see nothing wrong with that, at all.

Also I'm fairly certain they didn't clear it, they just started it in them because they didn't need to replace any of it while leveling.

Quest greens shouldn't replace final tier epics from the previous expansion, TBC was the same way, people were starting Kara in T2/3 gear.

Yea, and that feels horrible, not being able to upgrade gear in a gear based game, thank God its not that way anymore. I want to replace all of my pre expansion gear during the leveling process. There's a reason I never bothered with gw2

[dadev]

Going up 1k DPS is fine since would be all relative. A few expacs ago going up 1k DPS was really good considering healthpools. Again, it is not about the big numbers. I don't give a shit about millions or billions of damage, it is all relative. It is how fast the upgrades are coming.

Example: People are 5 manning normal Emerald Nightmare. That shouldn't happen at this tier. People didn't even 5 man Highmaul when BRF released. EN is still technically current tier.

It shouldn't be this fast. When you upgrade so fast, you need to continually get more powerful at an even faster rate. That is how its unsustainable.

You mean like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HV6l1VFONlI
And this is on hc.
You can even see they 5 manned butcher which was a pure dps check.

There's also this nugget:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6fTg4bGCYE
With Garrosh being quite hard boss for small amount of people. Also back then normal was comparable to current hc.

If anything I'm surprised there was no 5 man hc clear of current tier yet (nh included), because besides the power creep through legendaries and titanforged the raid received a big nerf through the new artifact traits.

[3DTyrant]

The concern is that stats within the same expansion have scaled beyond out of control... Under no circumstances should a current expansion raid be 5 mannable because of gear scaling going out of control.

I honestly don't see the big deal. It's not like EN is the newest raid of the xpac, of course it'll be outgeared by raiders by now, and will continue to be til the final raid of Legion, up til it's trivialised even more and undoubtedly soloable in the next xpac.

[Valrysha]

They need to squish the MoP gear (as it isnt fully squished due to WoD prepatch)

Also the Warlords gear, and then Legion gear. There is no need for numbers in the millions. It is absolutely absurd.

[Astalnar]

I see nothing wrong with that, at all.

Also I'm fairly certain they didn't clear it, they just started it in them because they didn't need to replace any of it while leveling.

Quest greens shouldn't replace final tier epics from the previous expansion, TBC was the same way, people were starting Kara in T2/3 gear.

Nope, they cleared it. First week.

[Kelathos]

Turn the stats into a level based system. Where a level 110 hits for the same as they do now.... against level 110 mobs.
But by the time you reach 120 your damage against 120 mobs will be a few thousand a hit.
Scale it to level, and then by gear. Resets every new level cap. Problem solved.

[Spiral Mage]

They do stat squishes to cover up these things,
but then never bother to learn from the mistakes that make these necessary in the first place.

[Sarevokcz]

Yeah but a stat squish won't fix it. I don't know the item level difference in Vanilla or TBC but in Wrath it was 77 levels (or 84 if you killed heroic LK and got those weapons).

Heroic dungeon gear was item level 200 (as was Naxx 10 man though with epics instead of blues) and heroic 25 man ICC was 277 (again, minus the weapons from LK). The gear inflation from dungeons alone is ridiculous. At the beginning of the expansion it went from like 815 gear to 840 gear I believe. That alone is crazy considering Wrath max level dungeons only had one item level which was the SAME as the entry level raid gear. EN spanned from 835 LFR to 880 on mythic. Naxx was 200-213 (with special 219 weapons from Kel'Thuzad 25 man).

The other thing inflating item level is the fact that the item level between raid instances has gone up as well. Naxx 25 man to Ulduar 25 man was 213 to 226. EN mythic to NH mythic is 880 to 900-910.

The problem ends up being that we have this huge gap between raid tiers and huge gap between difficulties and we end up being over 100 item levels higher than when we started by the time the first raid tier finishes. We'll probably be another 50+ item levels higher than we are in NH by the time the expansion is over. So in order to achieve this replayability value you're talking about, we'd have to remove all these difficulties or make the gain in power per one much smaller which I don't think will ever happen now. Even removing LFR would still give us three difficulties just like we had in MoP and those numbers weren't any better.

that doesnt really mean much, 213>226 is 6% increase, 880>905 is barely 3% increase, in fact, during LK, the dps skyrocketed pretty much just like now, except it was from 2k to 12k instead of 200k to 1,2M. And if you get nausea from those UUUGE numbers, just get an addon, that compresses it to K or M, problem solved.

[threads]

i dont see the point since they undid the first squish in only 1 xpac.

[Ribesal]

Why do some people think a stat squish is "needed"? Even the first one wasn't needed, they just needed to fix the underlying problem with mobs max HP, and the stat squish just bought them time to do so.
Now that the problem is fixed another stat squish is only "needed" when mobs exceed 9 quintillion HP. That will take some time.

It's ridiculous how fast our damage grows, but a squish isn't "needed" yet.

[Hctaz]

that doesnt really mean much, 213>226 is 6% increase, 880>905 is barely 3% increase, in fact, during LK, the dps skyrocketed pretty much just like now, except it was from 2k to 12k instead of 200k to 1,2M. And if you get nausea from those UUUGE numbers, just get an addon, that compresses it to K or M, problem solved.

What are you talking about?

First off, item level doesn't work like how you just said it does. You have the way that works completely wrong in saying that 213-226 is a 6% increase while 880-905 is barely a 3%. That's so wrong it hurts my head even thinking about how you came up with that theory. A 1 item level increase in Wrath should be the same as a 1 item level increase now.

In Legion, I saw most people start the first raid tier's mythic progression at around 200k-300k. Currently I'm at 800-900k single target mythic. This is the first raid tier STILL. This is like if people started Naxx 10 man with 7k dps and by the time they cleared all of Naxx 25, Malygos, and Obsidium Sanctum their dps went up to 27k. Cue in the rest of the expansion and you'd have people in ICC gear doing close to 100k dps which is 10 times the amount of dps from the beginning instead of the much smaller 3x~.

Here's some logs for proof.

You can see the first time I ever killed Mythic Nythendra here

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking.../10/#boss=1853

And the last time I ever killed Mythic Krosus here

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...est/#boss=1842

Dps has nearly tripled since the start of EN and you're telling me there isn't a problem? That this is the same as Wrath? It took the entire expansion of Wrath for dps to triple. Laughable.

Edit: I completely forgot that the ending numbers of Wrath were inflated due to the 30% buff from ICC. The actual Wrath numbers were lower.

- - - Updated - - -

i dont see the point since they undid the first squish in only 1 xpac.

If they want to stop this from happening then they're going to have to greatly decrease the amount of power gain per difficulty or remove some which I just don't see happening. They will have to do a stat squish every other expansion if they want to keep numbers smaller.

[gushDH]

If stats didn't scale the way they do, then we would have an even bigger problem with BiS stats. A 30 ilvl higher item with not correct stats would probably not be an upgrade than a 30ilvl lower with BiS stats. That make some items from raids essentially useless for players who won't benefit from their stats.

I really don't care about numbers, to be honest. It's a relative thing. I know it has been said that there will be another stat squish, but I would prefer if there wasn't, because it already is at a weird situation, where at levels 20-50 the items get +1 of the main stat. Makes getting gear at lower levels pointless. We will have same items from level 10 to level 80?

[Sarevokcz]

What are you talking about?

First off, item level doesn't work like how you just said it does. You have the way that works completely wrong in saying that 213-226 is a 6% increase while 880-905 is barely a 3%. That's so wrong it hurts my head even thinking about how you came up with that theory. A 1 item level increase in Wrath should be the same as a 1 item level increase now.

6 and 3% in ilevel increase, not power increase. duh.