"Pay to Win"

[Raelbo]

I disagree with this. Any advantage is pay2win. What you're talking about is particularly egregious pay2win, enough so many players are willing to quit over it.

As I said in my post, by playing with the semantics you can argue that "Any advantage is pay2win". The issue is that this is generally neither helpful nor constructive.

Of course it's not like we can point to an official definition, so your mileage may definitely vary!

My problem with this approach is that the typical anti-token complainant will not use their definitions consistently, thus creating a disingenuous argument. They will preface their argument with the assertion that "pay2win is bad" based on the generally accepted fact that more egregious forms of pay2win are bad. They will then proceed to argue that semantically because "Any advantage is pay2win", tokens = pay2win. Therefore tokens must be bad, even though if you stop to examine the situation, there is no actual problem with them.

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So I'll be leaving it as an invalid definition, and continue using the best valid definition I know of: "Ability to buy an in game advantage with money."

Which is still a rubbish definition because you're too vague with the term "advantage". The advantage you speak of has to translate into "winning".

A far better definition is "Ability to buy a meaningful and competitive in-game advantage with money".

[Cuppy]

Pay to Win occurs when buying in-game things grants you a lever that enables you to beat majority of others who play for free, with ease.

[Cyram]

"Well, you can pay $ for game-time, so if you have more money then you can play more and, therefore, you win.
Game Time = Pay2Win"
That seems to be the general idea of the whole WoW Token thing.
The idea of Pay2Win is to have an advantage other people don't in order to beat the objective of the game - be it PvP, PvE or whatevs.
WoW is a grindy game, based on subscription.
But you can't get PvP rating or gear with real money. You can't get a fully equipped character that would help you end Mythic Raiding. Gearing and learning and practicing takes time, which is exactly what Blizzard is selling.
And now, with the Token being available to either buy time or get gold, they're venturing into other ways of gating things (gold becomes less of a grind if you're willing to wipe ou some cash). But, then again, gold won't give you a fully geared character or special boosts to beat endgame, or even now a 99lvl artifact weapon with a fully researched Order Hall tree.
That's what pay2win is.
Hearthstone is pay2win? Well, yeah, you get an advantage if you spend a shit ton of money in cards and get the best out there and beat every single bastard that ain't spending cash on it.
You can't throw money at Blizzard and expect them to give you a tour in Mythic raiding or secure you a spot in the Gladiator PvP rating.
Some people sell their "services" to others? Yeah. But that ain't Blizzard's fault. That's shady people's business.
I agree with @Itychy , this game is SpendTime2Win, because the more time you spend in it the more tools you get in order to (try and) achieve what you're trying to do in here.

[Deleted]

There's authority in games industry. Because it's the definition from games industry. And it says you are wrong.

There is no single entity called "games industry" that makes authoritative decisions about definitions. I've published two iOS games that made money, so technically I'm part of the "games industry" and I say you are wrong.

Correct, not p2w.

Which shows that it is a pointless definition, and the definition I use -- "Ability to gain an in game advantage by paying money." -- is better.

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Which is still a rubbish definition because you're too vague with the term "advantage". The advantage you speak of has to translate into "winning".

It isn't, "advantage" is very easy to define -- anything that impacts game mechanics in your favor. And it translates into "winning" by definition. If you have an advantage, all other things equal, you have a higher probability of "winning".

A far better definition is "Ability to buy a meaningful and competitive in-game advantage with money".

That doesn't work because "meaningful" is vague and cannot be strictly defined, unlike "advantage", which can be strictly defined. And "competitive" is vacuous since you can compete about anything in game.

[Deleted]

People here are seemingly mixing up F2P, P2P and P2W issues together.

F2P = free to play
P2P = pay to play
P2W = pay to win

Usually P2W issues are around in F2P games. Why? Because the publisher suggests you can play the game completely free, but the truth is you are not able to play any part/facette of the game without money investment. In most cases the access to certain parts of the game are just denied for F2P gamers or the surroundings/circumstances are insanely tuned for F2P gamers what prevents them indirectly to enjoy the game completely (for example: limited bagslots (10 instead of 100) / no bank access / 50% less currencies per mobkill or questreward (not only money/gold but also token/shard like stuff to buy endgame gear or whatever). This is an usual P2W model in an F2P game. You must pay (in most cases in a form of an subscription) for the possibility to play the game completely without any barriers.

WoW is an P2P game in general. You have no access to the game without paying for it. This is not P2W. Once you have your access to WoW through subscription all ways are open for you to enjoy the game completeley. You can do anything without any kind of additional money investment. The circumstances/surroundings are the same for each player. You can just do anything like any other player. To be able to buy any kind of BoE epics out of the ah for gold (which is purchased per real money) is not P2W. You cannot buy something directly from the publisher to improve your gameplay or makes you even better than the average joe. Sellruns are made by the community and the only reason this works so well is because the illegal way to change gold in real cash again is pretty easy through all the gold brokers. WoW has only one P2W element: #levelboost. It makes a big difference to level your character to this point by yourself or just to boost it. This is not the hardest form of P2W and the benifit has its limits (because the game starts at 110 at all), but P2W is P2W.

[Deleted]

My guild boosts a guy every week through NH mythic.
He buys wow tokens from blizzard, sells them for in game gold, and then gives us in game gold to boost all of his characters through mythic raids to gear them up

This is totally legal, and he is getting the best gear in the game.
So yes I say wow is p2w in a round about way

[Teri]

My guild boosts a guy every week through NH mythic.
He buys wow tokens from blizzard, sells them for in game gold, and then gives us in game gold to boost all of his characters through mythic raids to gear them up

This is totally legal, and he is getting the best gear in the game.
So yes I say wow is p2w in a round about way

I still personally never consider using gold as pay to win, since the gear actually has to drop from the bosses still, and gold from tokens just comes from another person he sold the token to.

[Deleted]

People here are seemingly mixing up F2P, P2P and P2W issues together.

You're mixing up the issues here. F2P and P2P are related and completely separate issues from P2W. F2P and P2P are models of payment for the game. P2W is a model of payment to gain an advantage in the game. You can have F2P P2W games just as easily as P2P P2W games.

[Deleted]

My guild boosts a guy every week through NH mythic.
He buys wow tokens from blizzard, sells them for in game gold, and then gives us in game gold to boost all of his characters through mythic raids to gear them up

This is totally legal, and he is getting the best gear in the game.
So yes I say wow is p2w in a round about way

To buy/get something from the community is not P2W.

[Deleted]

To buy/get something from the community is not P2W.

It you buy it with something you earned in-game, then it is not. If you buy it with gold you bought from Blizzard with real money, then it is.

[Deleted]

Some people sell their "services" to others? Yeah. But that ain't Blizzard's fault.

It is the moment they do not ban and pursue those who offer those services openly in any ingame chat.

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To buy/get something from the community is not P2W.

But is it right? what he described is how the game design should work? that is how someone is supposed to get gear?

[Cyram]

To buy/get something from the community is not P2W.

This is what I was trying to say in a nutshell, but I'm shit at explaining and getting to the point.
@Dryla you can't pay Blizzard to win, you're paying a third party, eh... party, in order to get what you want.
Blizzard's model is not pay to win. Are there some ways around it? Well, yeah, getting someone else to carry you, but that's an advantage that someone else gives you, not Blizz.

[Deleted]

that's an advantage that someone else gives you, not Blizz.

The advantage is having gold. You can buy boosts with it, or buy gear from AH, or any number of other things. All other things being equal, having lots of gold is a big advantage. And Blizzard sells you gold for cash. It's as straight up pay2win as you can get.

[Deleted]

You're mixing up the issues here. F2P and P2P are related and completely separate issues from P2W. F2P and P2P are models of payment for the game. P2W is a model of payment to gain an advantage in the game. You can have F2P P2W games just as easily as P2P P2W games.

F2P-MMORGPS and P2W are inseperable. There is not a single F2P MMORPG which was able to stay alive for a long period with an pure F2P modell without any kind of P2W. A lot of games tried it only to stay alive through fun items (selling mounts, transmog like items, stuff which has absolutely no influence on PvP or PvE content), but this is not working for a long time.

On the other hand I dont know a single P2P-MMORPG which has any kind of P2W (except the levelboost option). If I am wrong, please show me such a game.

It you buy it with something you earned in-game, then it is not. If you buy it with gold you bought from Blizzard with real money, then it is.

But is it right? what he described is how the game design should work? that is how someone is supposed to get gear?

No it isnt. The access to all the stuff is limited, its not in your hand. Just to have the gold gives you not the power to get the stuff you want immediatly. There is no guarantee you get an spot in a sellrun soon or to find the piece of gear you want in the auction house. It depends all on the community.

[Deleted]

This is what I was trying to say in a nutshell, but I'm shit at explaining and getting to the point.
@Dryla you can't pay Blizzard to win, you're paying a third party, eh... party, in order to get what you want.
Blizzard's model is not pay to win. Are there some ways around it? Well, yeah, getting someone else to carry you, but that's an advantage that someone else gives you, not Blizz.

No it is not P2W i do agree with that, the definition, like it or not, i do also think it is the one that @Asmodias gave.
This boosting thing is the consecuence of the F2P strange model that wow uses.
To encourage people to buy tokens with real money so they can support the sub of the ones (me included) that pay the sub with gold, they are turning a blind eye with this boosting practices that go against the design of the game itself.
The idea of the game clearly is not that someone gets decked with heroic or mythic gear by buying it with gold or with real money.
Also they need to bribe raiders to provide these services by letting them profit and playing the game for free.
I get why they are allowing it, but i do not like it at all, and although maybe it is necessary at the moment for the game to keep running, i think it is gonna be real bad in the long run.

[Deleted]

F2P-MMORGPS and P2W are inseperable.

No they're not. You could have a F2P game supported by advertising, for example. Just because current F2P MMORPGs happen to have strong P2W elements, doesn't in any way change my point. It doesn't mean there cannot be F2P games that are not P2W or P2P mages that are P2W. They are different issues and shouldn't be mixed just because they happen to have similar acronyms.

Just to have the gold gives you not the power to get the stuff you want immediatly. There is no guarantee you get an spot in a sellrun soon or to find the piece of gear you want in the auction house. It depends all on the community.

It gives you an advantage, so it is pay2win. It does not need to give you a guarantee of immediate spot or item to be pay2win.

[Deleted]

No it is not P2W i do agree with that, the definition, like it or not, i do also think it is the one that @Asmodias gave.
This boosting thing is the consecuence of the F2P strange model that wow uses.
To encourage people to buy tokens with real money so they can support the sub of the ones (me included) that pay the sub with gold, they are turning a blind eye with this boosting practices that go against the design of the game itself.
The idea of the game clearly is not that someone gets decked with heroic or mythic gear by buying it with gold or with real money.
Also they need to bribe raiders to provide these services by letting them profit and playing the game for free.
I get why they are allowing it, but i do not like it at all, and although maybe it is necessary at the moment for the game to keep running, i think it is gonna be real bad in the long run.

I guess the current system in WoW requires a name on its own. Its an P2P-P2P-P4SEP game (Pay2play-Play2pay-Pay4SomeoneElsePlaytime)

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No they're not. You could have a F2P game supported by advertising, for example. Just because current F2P MMORPGs happen to have strong P2W elements, doesn't in any way change my point. It doesn't mean there cannot be F2P games that are not P2W or P2P mages that are P2W. They are different issues and shouldn't be mixed just because they happen to have similar acronyms.

show me a single example. theory =/= practise

[Deleted]

F2P-MMORGPS and P2W are inseperable. There is not a single F2P MMORPG which was able to stay alive for a long period with an pure F2P modell without any kind of P2W.

Path of Exile.
You can check it if you want.

[Deleted]

Path of Exile.
You can check it if you want.

I was 100% clear to get PoE thing in my face. But the prob is it isnt an MMORPG.

[Deleted]

I was 100% clear to get PoE thing in my face. But the prob is it isnt an MMORPG.

No it is not, that gives POE extra credit, i think that being an action RPG makes it even more difficult to stay afloat without P2W.