Thread: Rip m+

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  1. #301
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Hashcrypt View Post
    I can't believe you mooks are so willing to accept Blizzards bullshit reasoning for gutting the M+ system.

    So, I'll say again, RIP M+, the best thing about Legion by far.
    Easy, because it's not bullshit. The abuse of the two and three chest system is the only bullshit here, the only reason it even existed is so that you don't have to run through 2 -3 -4 -5 -6 -7 -8 -9 -10 in order to arrive at a level that you're really at, it let you skip past two additional levels if you're clearly outgearing/out-performing the key you have.

    You can say RIP M+ all you want but it's not going anywhere, the changes are great for those who used it as intended and we actually receive 50 % additional loot from before.

  2. #302
    A max possible outcome where 2 people get nothing isn't in line with what I would call a reasonable reward. Even if unlikely the opportunity for 1 item per person is preferred.

  3. #303
    I mean, where people actually running M+ for gear?

    I haven't really seen that, so I don't know why the gear changes are a big deal.

    I am glad they are finally moving away from that silly timer.

    I am sorry, beating a timer is not a test of skill, it is more a matter of tightly controlling classes you bring so that you can just blow through the dungeon easily. I still don't see how that equated to skill for blizzard....... Seems to be a false equivalency.

    I think it is a step in the right direction. Hopefully soon they will figure out how to design a dungeon mode that rely on a "crutch" (timer) to test skill and actually relies on strategery and skill. Not just "The great dungeon race of 16-17."

    We already have dungeons you just run through and aoe everything down- they are called "timewalking" or "heroic."

  4. #304
    Deleted
    I don't know if blizz even knows that, but "challenging" keystone levels are for a lot of players FAR above the reward cap. For a lot of players this is a straight up nerf without any compensation.
    Just another pathetic attempt to fix the problems caused by titanforging. If it weren't for titanforging m+ would be exactly, what blizz intends it to be: an alternative gearing pathway for people and a place for high geared players, who seek a challenge. Not a place, where people who like to min/max have to grind for broken relics/trinkets/sets/items with affixes, because of titanforged procs.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Hashcrypt View Post
    Titanforging is the ONLY reason that content other than Mythic NH has remained relavent. It's honestly a brilliant piece of game design.

    Or do you think the better option would be to have 99% of the content be dead to you once you reach about 880 ilvl? Would that really be an upgrade over the TF system?

    Without TF why would you EVER run M+ now that AP had been trivialized? The hope for specific pieces of dungeon loot TF'ing is a big draw right now and makes dungeons lucrative. We wouldn't even be talking about dungeons in past xpacs after 9 months of it being live. The damn near perfect M+ system and TF is what's to thank for easy to access content that we've all enjoyed since Legion launched.

    I can't believe you mooks are so willing to accept Blizzards bullshit reasoning for gutting the M+ system.

    So, I'll say again, RIP M+, the best thing about Legion by far.
    The problem is, how long should older content be relevant? Some trinkets would remain so strong that you'd HAVE to farm a super, crazy high titanforging version. And that's a problem. If we got into 7.3 and beyond, and people still had to come back and farm high TF proc'd Draught of Souls... That's getting to the point of ridiculous. Titanforging should have a cap to prevent this. Cap it at +25 ilvls. That way after some point, new trinkets and such are better purely because of ilvl, and you'd only go back for run/AP, not because it's required to not be garbage.

    Also needing to go and farm every version of EN because the relics in there actually have the desired traits is already stupid, with Nighthold out. I'd hate it if I had to keep on during ToS, which I might. Ele shaman only have on relic from ToS with the new BIS trait (as far as I know), which means for our other slots we need to KEEP farming EoA and BRH mythic+, augmented by EN runs. Nighthold has zero relics with our BIS traits. Having to continue on into ToS and Argus is beyond dumb.

  6. #306
    Yes, checking the dungeon journal for your best relic affixes searching lfm for groups doing that dungeon and hoping for titanforge is one of the most efficient ways to improve your character. I also think it's really fun as with the different groups you learn routes and pulls and you can see the improvement with time you shave over time. If you are into grinds, which is a hallmark of rpg imo, it's really satisfying.

    Although I can see by some ppl here only do mythic because they feel they have to to keep up with the joneses, idk what to do for those ppl but for mythic+ as alt aholic grindlords mythic+ is very fun as is

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Alydael View Post
    I mean, where people actually running M+ for gear?

    I haven't really seen that, so I don't know why the gear changes are a big deal.

    I am glad they are finally moving away from that silly timer.

    I am sorry, beating a timer is not a test of skill, it is more a matter of tightly controlling classes you bring so that you can just blow through the dungeon easily. I still don't see how that equated to skill for blizzard....... Seems to be a false equivalency.

    I think it is a step in the right direction. Hopefully soon they will figure out how to design a dungeon mode that rely on a "crutch" (timer) to test skill and actually relies on strategery and skill. Not just "The great dungeon race of 16-17."

    We already have dungeons you just run through and aoe everything down- they are called "timewalking" or "heroic."
    Yes, a lot of people still need high procs of the Arcway/CoS sets to get more dps out. Or even trinkets (Amalgam's Seventh Spine is super valuable to some healers, if they need mana) and relics *cough ele shaman cough*.

    Also, not everyone runs with only a specific comp for mythic+. Only the crazy hardcore tryhards, or retards do. Most go with adequately geared people that don't die to dumb shit.

    At higher levels, you begin to use the utility of classes more often, and learn when to use the optimally, to mitigate damage and ensure success. So the timer is present, but how you manage to beat the timer is your measure of skill. Whether its by being more defensive at some points, or knowing when to know to go full retard, etc.

  8. #308
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    At this point it's simple.

    If you dislike what Blizzard did finish the game off and Legion Expansion by killing Sargeras etc for story closure.

    Then boycott their shit and move to FFXIV Stormblood. Double points if you post witty memes on 4-chan.

    I hate it too, but Blizzard don't give a xuk.

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Crysth View Post
    Yes, a lot of people still need high procs of the Arcway/CoS sets to get more dps out. Or even trinkets (Amalgam's Seventh Spine is super valuable to some healers, if they need mana) and relics *cough ele shaman cough*.

    Also, not everyone runs with only a specific comp for mythic+. Only the crazy hardcore tryhards, or retards do. Most go with adequately geared people that don't die to dumb shit.

    At higher levels, you begin to use the utility of classes more often, and learn when to use the optimally, to mitigate damage and ensure success. So the timer is present, but how you manage to beat the timer is your measure of skill. Whether its by being more defensive at some points, or knowing when to know to go full retard, etc.
    Some classes are just better suited to run through a dungeon, aoe'ing everything down (or as much mobs as you can handle) than others. There is really no denying that, I don't even think blizzard would deny that.

    Most people I know get their gear from raids. They run M+ for the keystone next week and the chest in your hall.

    I can see your point on trinkets, but at this stage- Blizzard really can't base it's design goals around the small percentage of those running M+ hoping for a trink drop.

    I don't even mind the timer, but to base the whole of M+ around it is extreme.

    They should have focused on the affixes. You can literally make hundred of affixes.

    This is how I would do it:

    No timer (at all), difficulty based on the affix.

    Every M+ has an affix

    The difficulty is based on: the difficulty of the affix and combinations of affixes.

    The timer returns- as two affixes: "the creeper"

    The creeper is chasing you through the dungeon. If it catches you it attacks you immediately (even if you are in a boss fight). The creeper hits like a truck.

    "LFG Hero" - a "hero" joins your party (all monster health and damage adjusted). Our "hero" is a little impatient (like most players in LFR). If you are pulling too slow, the "hero" runs ahead and starts pulling (even bosses). The "hero" must be alive at the end of the run to complete the run. He can be healed or rezzed.



    I just think dealing with the affixes requires a lot more skill and strategy than beating a timer.

  10. #310
    No timer makes any reasonable amount of challenge trivial

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by liangdar View Post
    I don't know if blizz even knows that, but "challenging" keystone levels are for a lot of players FAR above the reward cap. For a lot of players this is a straight up nerf without any compensation.
    Just another pathetic attempt to fix the problems caused by titanforging. If it weren't for titanforging m+ would be exactly, what blizz intends it to be: an alternative gearing pathway for people and a place for high geared players, who seek a challenge. Not a place, where people who like to min/max have to grind for broken relics/trinkets/sets/items with affixes, because of titanforged procs.
    This is not a nerf under any condition. A group who can consistently reach +3 in a low-level keystone should have few issues making the timer on a key that's three levels higher. They will trade a large amount of low ilvl drops for a smaller amount of higher ilvl drops.

    With a bit of math, I can show that this is even a "buff" for the players who were running lower keys for +3 chests:
    Let's compare a player who +3s a level 8 keystone in the current system to one who clears a level 10 in the upcoming one.
    In the current system, that player gets 4x 885 and 2x 890 pieces. In the new one, 3x 890. I am going to argue that, when hoping for titanforge, a single 890 piece is more valuable than four 885s. It is my understanding that the WF chance is less than 25%, meaning that you'd be discarding more than four 885s for every one that forged even once to 890. Under the new system, you'll actually see more loot that's 890 or higher.

    This is not an attempt to fix anything related to titanforging. Titanforging is unlikely (most assuredly less than one in four), and the most effective way to get high level titanforges is to ensure that the base drop level of your gear is as high as possible.

  12. #312
    This implies that 2 chesting at or above the base ilvl cap is not possible which is ???????

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by Alydael View Post
    Some classes are just better suited to run through a dungeon, aoe'ing everything down (or as much mobs as you can handle) than others. There is really no denying that, I don't even think blizzard would deny that.

    Most people I know get their gear from raids. They run M+ for the keystone next week and the chest in your hall.

    I can see your point on trinkets, but at this stage- Blizzard really can't base it's design goals around the small percentage of those running M+ hoping for a trink drop.

    I don't even mind the timer, but to base the whole of M+ around it is extreme.

    They should have focused on the affixes. You can literally make hundred of affixes.

    This is how I would do it:

    No timer (at all), difficulty based on the affix.

    Every M+ has an affix

    The difficulty is based on: the difficulty of the affix and combinations of affixes.

    The timer returns- as two affixes: "the creeper"

    The creeper is chasing you through the dungeon. If it catches you it attacks you immediately (even if you are in a boss fight). The creeper hits like a truck.

    "LFG Hero" - a "hero" joins your party (all monster health and damage adjusted). Our "hero" is a little impatient (like most players in LFR). If you are pulling too slow, the "hero" runs ahead and starts pulling (even bosses). The "hero" must be alive at the end of the run to complete the run. He can be healed or rezzed.



    I just think dealing with the affixes requires a lot more skill and strategy than beating a timer.
    People primarily get their main tier slots and some trinkets from raids, the ret is from whatever source it happens to come from. Non-tier pieces, you'd be surprised how many people happen to have m+ pieces for those slots. They may not have grinded for them, but they have them nonetheless. Note your use of "Most people I know". That makes your claim anecdotal, which invalidates it.

    And yes, there are some classes that are better for mythic+, no one was arguing this. But most people don't try to go for specific comps. They go, "Does this random have a suitable ilvls? Yes? Invite them". Specific comps are done by tryhards are super high keystones (which loot is not a factor), or the idiots at the low end that would spout off shit like "x class is garbage because y guild didnt use them on their first kill" (which clearly proves they are dumb as rocks, and should be ignored).

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Bowshewicz View Post
    This is not a nerf under any condition. A group who can consistently reach +3 in a low-level keystone should have few issues making the timer on a key that's three levels higher. They will trade a large amount of low ilvl drops for a smaller amount of higher ilvl drops.
    What world do you live in where people can't 3-chest a 10 right now, or even a 15 for that matter?

    It's a nerf
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  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by Kraineth View Post
    What world do you live in where people can't 3-chest a 10 right now, or even a 15 for that matter?

    It's a nerf
    I can see how you might feel if you're fishing for a specific trinket or relic that only comes out of a dungeon. However, Tomb of Sargeras will also become available at the same time, along with new trinkets. If there are still any 7.0 dungeon trinkets that outperform ToS trinkets, that's an entirely separate issue from the how the loot system works.

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by Hashcrypt View Post
    Titanforging is the ONLY reason that content other than Mythic NH has remained relavent. It's honestly a brilliant piece of game design.

    Or do you think the better option would be to have 99% of the content be dead to you once you reach about 880 ilvl? Would that really be an upgrade over the TF system?

    Without TF why would you EVER run M+ now that AP had been trivialized? The hope for specific pieces of dungeon loot TF'ing is a big draw right now and makes dungeons lucrative. We wouldn't even be talking about dungeons in past xpacs after 9 months of it being live. The damn near perfect M+ system and TF is what's to thank for easy to access content that we've all enjoyed since Legion launched.

    I can't believe you mooks are so willing to accept Blizzards bullshit reasoning for gutting the M+ system.

    So, I'll say again, RIP M+, the best thing about Legion by far.
    Its not brilliant. If this was the last raid, then Titanforging would do nothing. Also, there are still many guilds that have not killed M Guldan. People continued to raid for a long time before Titanforging existed. And yes, its the only thing keeping M+ around, doesnt that in itself prove that M+ is terrible?

    I cant even RIP M+ because it was nothing but another terribly designed addition of the terribly designed Legion.

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Crysth View Post
    People primarily get their main tier slots and some trinkets from raids, the ret is from whatever source it happens to come from. Non-tier pieces, you'd be surprised how many people happen to have m+ pieces for those slots. They may not have grinded for them, but they have them nonetheless. Note your use of "Most people I know". That makes your claim anecdotal, which invalidates it.

    And yes, there are some classes that are better for mythic+, no one was arguing this. But most people don't try to go for specific comps. They go, "Does this random have a suitable ilvls? Yes? Invite them". Specific comps are done by tryhards are super high keystones (which loot is not a factor), or the idiots at the low end that would spout off shit like "x class is garbage because y guild didnt use them on their first kill" (which clearly proves they are dumb as rocks, and should be ignored).
    That's because the "suitable ilevels" are usually way inflated over what the M+ would actually require, which negates the need for comps but also negates the value of the gear unless it drops as a wf or tf proc.

    You see stuff like M 3+, 870 required..... Yeah, if you are running M+3 with a group level of 870 ish, you totally don't need to worry about comp....

    As for "the people I know" making a claim invalid then, you realize- this whole forum is invalid. This forum represents a very small portion of the player base. Basically it represents the people that play and are engaged enough that they actually post in forums about the game. That's a very small percentage of players, my friend.

    As for the trinks, if we are talking about what you "need" to defeat current content, the raid trinks are perfectly fine for that. You don't "have" to run M+ for those trinkets to progress at all. You can progress through all the raids without ever stepping foot in an M+. That's why I don't think those trinks should be a big factor in these discussions.

    All this is just peripheral points though. I still feel M+ would be better if they focused more on quality improvements that required more strategy than just a "race against the clock" dungeon. Let's be honest, basing all of M+ around a timer was just incredibly lazy by the devs.

  18. #318
    The clock is required to apply pressure to the challenge, any task with no clock is easy. Will humans cure cancer? I think it's inevitable, in my lifetime? Now I'm not so sure.

    I have a question for alydale and bowshwitz no Flame honest question, what is the problem in you opinion that the announced changes remedy. Specifically the announced changes not an amended version.

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Xisa View Post
    That's why they made the change. The "farm 1 million low-level" M+ dungeons was stupid has hell. I'm glad to see it die.

    Removing the depleted keystones is a good move too, it'll limit the damage trolls can inflict on groups.
    No like... this change doesn't change anything though. I can clear up to 18s reasonably solid with my guild group NOW. When we're clearing Mythic tomb and we go from 910 to 940, we'll be able to clear probably 22 reliably... but we won't. We'll clear one for the weekly AP and then we'll go back to blowing through 15s to farm 905s with a chance of titanforge or whatever the new item level cap is because there is very little incentive to actually keep progressing through higher keys.

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Alydael View Post
    That's because the "suitable ilevels" are usually way inflated over what the M+ would actually require, which negates the need for comps but also negates the value of the gear unless it drops as a wf or tf proc.

    You see stuff like M 3+, 870 required..... Yeah, if you are running M+3 with a group level of 870 ish, you totally don't need to worry about comp....

    As for "the people I know" making a claim invalid then, you realize- this whole forum is invalid. This forum represents a very small portion of the player base. Basically it represents the people that play and are engaged enough that they actually post in forums about the game. That's a very small percentage of players, my friend.

    As for the trinks, if we are talking about what you "need" to defeat current content, the raid trinks are perfectly fine for that. You don't "have" to run M+ for those trinkets to progress at all. You can progress through all the raids without ever stepping foot in an M+. That's why I don't think those trinks should be a big factor in these discussions.

    All this is just peripheral points though. I still feel M+ would be better if they focused more on quality improvements that required more strategy than just a "race against the clock" dungeon. Let's be honest, basing all of M+ around a timer was just incredibly lazy by the devs.
    1) Comp isn't required even at gear levels that match the reward. When legion first launched, I ran mythics with a DH tank, arguably the worst tank class at the time. Aside from it being hard due to us being 805-810, comp wasn't a factor. Same applies for mythic+ now. Unless you are bleeding edge, comp isn't a large factor.

    2) That's a cop out. Same as people talking about something self-imposed in this game, then when a valid point is made, they simply respond "oh, but this game is self-imposed!"

    3) My original comment about titanforging wasn't specifically targeted toward mythic+, although it had a factor in it. It was about how long old content should remain farmed.

    4) The problem is that you have to make it challenging without it being complete bullshit. Yeah, you can make it challenging by adding crazy amounts of affixes to deal with at once. But at some point, it becomes bullshit and impossible, or it really doesn't require specific comps to handle (cheese) all the crap thrown at you. When you HAVE to resort to cheesing, that cuts the skill out.

    Timed events tend to be the most balanced way to do it. At low keys, which are laughable, time isn't a factor... at all. At high keys, it becomes a matter of skill in the sense of "what can you do to make it easier on the healers, allowing them to DPS more and/or save mana" or "how can i time my CD usage throughout this dungeon to make it go faster". Doing this while having to keep your pace up is the skill test. Farming +7's is not a test of skill, and no one is arguing that point. But you have to apply all the other facets of the run, along with the timer, to higher keys and you'll realize that it really does take skill. IMO, more than mythic raiding.

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