Enh shammy in 7.2.5

[Imnick]

Not any mention of pulsing damage, that would be passive damage. It say's ss and ll also deals X damage to all targets in front of you. It's only when you do one or the other. And I get that it counts it as CL damage. I'm asking if anyone has tested to see if the set bonus counts that cleave since it's activated by SS. I constantly get errors when trying to copy to the ptr so i can't test it myself. If not then I agree it's an aoe setup only since the cleave effect from CL is effected by anything that boosts CL damage. We would pool 10 charge's and CL when adds cone out for a burst

That is the "pulse" damage.
It releases a wave of damage every time you use SS or LL.
It doesn't make SS or LL hit more than one target, the AOE damage is Crash Lightning.
This has been true since the spell was added, it has never triggered any SS or LL effect, it doesn't need any more testing.

If it made SS or LL hit more than one target it would say so.
It doesn't say so.
It says "Enhances your weapons, causing SS and LL to deal a set amount nature damage to targets in front of you".
Contrast this first quote with effects that do make abilities hit extra targets:

Hitting 2 or more targets enhances your weapons for 10 sec, causing Stormstrike and Lava Lash to also deal 75% Nature damage to all targets in front of you.

While you remain within the area, your Scourge Strike will hit all enemies near the target.

While active, your melee attacks also strike all nearby enemies.

Marks a target with Havoc for 8 sec, causing your single target spells to also strike the Havoc victim.

Incinerate now hits all enemies near your target.

It's pretty clear that there is a difference in wording.
That difference is also a difference in effect.

When you use SS under CL, SS still only hits one target.

[Deleted]

Who cares about wording? We've known for a year now how it works...

[Deleted]

Seems like not everyone, thats why he described it.

[Phaty]

Seems like not everyone, thats why he described it.

I was just saying calling it pulse damage is incorrect, because that not a pulse. It's just added damage on demand. A pulse is a series to a rythm which would mean you did it and it dealt damage at set intervals regardless if you used SS or LL again (I honestly think I would be better if it worked that way). It's on demand damage when you use SS or LL. I also said I know it's CL damage, I was asking if the set bonus took it into account since it's damage still generated when you used SS, and that was already answered since the sets aren't available yet.

[Deleted]

Rusah did some talent analysis and it is confirms me:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...ge=22#post-432

He suggests Landslide needed a buff to 12% agility to match HH. So HH is strong and Akainu isnt dead at all. And if Akainu is our strongest setup, then 4pt20 will be extremely weak up nearly no increase at all bevause in that build casting CL is a big dps loss.

[Imnick]

I was just saying calling it pulse damage is incorrect, because that not a pulse. It's just added damage on demand. A pulse is a series to a rythm which would mean you did it and it dealt damage at set intervals regardless if you used SS or LL again (I honestly think I would be better if it worked that way). It's on demand damage when you use SS or LL. I also said I know it's CL damage, I was asking if the set bonus took it into account since it's damage still generated when you used SS, and that was already answered since the sets aren't available yet.

I didn't say "you pulse da,age every second when the buff is active", I said "Every time you use SS or LL it. releases a pulse of damage", which is true and accurate to the tooltip and effect.
Whether the set bonus is available or not is irrelevant because we already know it won't work with the set bonus because we already know that SS with CL only hits one target. Surprisingly this set bonus isn't the first ever effect that has procced from hitting SS, our most important ability, in this expansion.

- - - Updated - - -

Rusah did some talent analysis and it is confirms me:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...ge=22#post-432

He suggests Landslide needed a buff to 12% agility to match HH. So HH is strong and Akainu isnt dead at all. And if Akainu is our strongest setup, then 4pt20 will be extremely weak up nearly no increase at all bevause in that build casting CL is a big dps loss.

This is a silly way to interpret this data.
Casting CL is bad in that build because there's no reason to do it on live. It does less damage than LL and has less chance to proc SS because of the set bonus.
Casting CL once it has a significant damage buff and once LL does not proc SS will change its priority.

Don't get me wrong, it is still a bad set bonus, but that isn't anything to do with Hot Hand or Akainu's. It would still be bad if we were running Landslide, Lightning Shield. and Earthen Spike. It's bad on its own merits, not because on live servers where you don't have it you don't use CL rotationally on one target most of the time.

People treated tier 19 the same way.
They said "Lava Lash is a weak button we avoid pressing, it's a DPS loss to hit it instead if CL. This means it will be a bad set bonus because we don't want to hit LL when we're not wearing the set bonus that makes us want to hit LL.".
The ability to look back makes those people look very silly.
Evaluate bonuses based on their own merits, not based on a current priority that does not include them.

[Nitwit]

People treated tier 19 the same way.
They said "Lava Lash is a weak button we avoid pressing, it's a DPS loss to hit it instead if CL. This means it will be a bad set bonus because we don't want to hit LL when we're not wearing the set bonus that makes us want to hit LL.".
The ability to look back makes those people look very silly.

When the set bonus was first datamined Lava Lash barely hit harder than Rockbiter. The 4p bonus eventually became good after the 2p was doubled and Lava Lash was buffed up, but that doesn't change the fact that it was horrible when first introduced.

[Deleted]

Lets say we gonna take landslide and hailstorm, together with flametongue and new t20 2pc we gonna maintain 4 short buffs. Am I the only one who is not happy with that?

[Deleted]

I talked to Rusah and he said Akainu is still crazily strong and forces us the HH/HS route for single target. Landslide is really weak, especially with Akainu.

And i tried it on PTR. I picked no 4pc, dumped with CL and CL was only 2% of my dps. And many of them happened with 0-2 ss between, so at best we are looking at a 100% increase for cl (i believe on average i had only 2-3 ss between 2 CLs).

PTR sim is broken currently for enhance so i cannot give own numbers. But LS is pretty weak at single target without Akainu and much weaker with Akainu.

Rusah didnt confirm my assumption that with Akainu, dumping with CL is a dps loss. But i remember from own sims that even with 30% akainu, i gained dps ignoring cl. But i would need to do some sims if thats true.

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Lets say we gonna take landslide and hailstorm, together with flametongue and new t20 2pc we gonna maintain 4 short buffs. Am I the only one who is not happy with that?

It is no problem at all. On PTR without 4pt19, we have way less SB procs so we have much more free GCDs for RB and LL/CL. Maintanibg Landslide will be very easy and it is likely we are going to use CL every 4sec-8sec.

Only weaponbuffs need to be actively maintained.

[Deleted]

I talked to Rusah and he said Akainu is still crazily strong and forces us the HH/HS route for single target. Landslide is really weak, especially with Akainu.

And i tried it on PTR. I picked no 4pc, dumped with CL and CL was only 2% of my dps. And many of them happened with 0-2 ss between, so at best we are looking at a 100% increase for cl (i believe on average i had only 2-3 ss between 2 CLs).

PTR sim is broken currently for enhance so i cannot give own numbers. But LS is pretty weak at single target without Akainu and much weaker with Akainu.

Rusah didnt confirm my assumption that with Akainu, dumping with CL is a dps loss. But i remember from own sims that even with 30% akainu, i gained dps ignoring cl. But i would need to do some sims if thats true.

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It is no problem at all. On PTR without 4pt19, we have way less SB procs so we have much more free GCDs for RB and LL/CL. Maintanibg Landslide will be very easy and it is likely we are going to use CL every 4sec-8sec.

Only weaponbuffs need to be actively maintained.

Rusah also mentioned something like CL is now back in the single target rotation is this actually happening? or only after obtaining t20 4p

[Deleted]

Thanks for clarification. Im looking forward to use rotation without spamming stormstrike in long chains. Also, have no idea how aoe spell is in ST rotation. 7.1.5 fixed this, but apparently that was a mistake. There is one thing that might be good, our crash lightning improves next SS, and now SS gonna improve our AoE. Feels like a complete mechanic, or at least good start. You can stack some for aoe burst if numbers gonna get adjusted.

[Deleted]

Here is some talent setups compared (i ignored those ending up pretty bad).

Sims are done with Ring+Helmet, i replaced Helmet with Akainu in those sims Flagged as Akainu (Akainu always is Hot Hand + Hailstorm + Tempest + whatever 100 talent i picked).

http://img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uplo...c19gkof75w.png

I'd say:

Single target wise, Akainu is still the best shot. It beats the helmet by about 2%.

ES is somewhat overtuned or the rest undertuned. In Akainu Build, Ascendance can beat EA on certain fight lengthths (e.g. less than 100 sec, about 3,5 minutes and so on).


Conclusions:

I can see ES becoming the best 100 talent, but it isnt that far ahead in every setup. For Akainu, ES and Asecndance are close so you can pick Ascendance because it is 1 less button to use rotaitional and Akainu already has many buttons in its rotation.

HH even slightly beats LS/Windsong without Akainu, but it's within 1k, so about 0.1%. I'd say, if you dont use Akainu, go AS+ whatever you like best in first talent row.

Best AOE setup should be HH+AS+Tempest+Ascendance. FOA sims a little higher but whatever. I dont like FOA so i'd recommend CS.

[Phaty]

That is the "pulse" damage.
It releases a wave of damage every time you use SS or LL.
It doesn't make SS or LL hit more than one target, the AOE damage is Crash Lightning.
This has been true since the spell was added, it has never triggered any SS or LL effect, it doesn't need any more testing.

If it made SS or LL hit more than one target it would say so.
It doesn't say so.
It says "Enhances your weapons, causing SS and LL to deal a set amount nature damage to targets in front of you".
Contrast this first quote with effects that do make abilities hit extra targets:






It's pretty clear that there is a difference in wording.
That difference is also a difference in effect.

When you use SS under CL, SS still only hits one target.

That's not entirely true. There's been many instances where a source of damage counted as another. The most recent was the SA trinket. It was listed as its own damage but acted as MH damage as well thus proccing SB.

[Imnick]

That's not entirely true. There's been many instances where a source of damage counted as another. The most recent was the SA trinket. It was listed as its own damage but acted as MH damage as well thus proccing SB.

"Main Hand Attacks" and "Storm Strike Hits" are very different things.
Multiple things can be Main Hand Attacks but only one thing is Storm Strike Damage. Many abilities are Main Hand Attacks, so it's not weird for one of them to be accidentally mislabelled as one. Only one thing is Storm Strike, and we already know that CL's pulse damage is not Storm Strike because there are other things that proc from Storm Strike and none of them proc from the CL pulse damage from Storm Strike.

If one thing (this set bonus) counted CL's damage as Storm Strike then so would everything else, but nothing else does.

We already know for a fact that this set bonus will not get multiple stacks under CL because that's not how CL works. Even if it did (which it won't) then this would be a bug that would be fixed before it went live.
There's no further need for investigation.

[Tapzer]

Regardless of what the changes bring, I will still enjoy enhancement. I have the most fun on an enhance than any other toon.

[Elestia]

Earthen Spike is simply bad. I simmed my char with Akainu and different lvl 100 talents and got those results!

No talent 797k
Earthen Spike 802k
Ascendance 827k
Landslide 851k.



So why should anyone ever not pick landslide? Especially considering Landslide works at cleave and AOE.

Of course that build (HS+HH+Akainu) emphasizes a lot on fire and frost damage, which arent affected by ES. But the difference is huge.

Now someone will have to sim whether those buffs are enough for ES to be preferred.

Read the new patch notes and talent changes for tomb chief. Whole point of the thread is whats coming, not current builds.

[Deleted]

Read the new patch notes and talent changes for tomb chief. Whole point of the thread is whats coming, not current builds.

You didnt understand what i said. I responded to someone saying ES is already close. ES on live was bad, so a massive buff was necessary. Old ES was nearly dps neutral. Picking ES and using it was about as good as picking no talent.

[Deleted]

Enha resource with current abilities and talents is worst resource in WoW history. You either have it or not, sometimes it doesnt matter if you track it, you swim in maelstrom, but with some "lucky" procs you are starving. No golden point. While this can work in particular talent setup you start to struggle when you add some MS spending talent. Not only numbers, but the whole playstyle start to stutter. First when they announced new resource for enha I was extremely happy, I was hoping for insane playstyle where you can play around maelstrom, but now it's mostly SB luck for average player and higher. After 1 week of extensive play (after the break) I cant stand it anymore. I would rather take MoP playstyle and the only thing I would miss is Crash Lightning.

[Gunwolf]

Earthen Spike buffs seem interesting. Was expecting them to increase the damage and buff, but I still think it could benefit from double range, up to 20 yds... maybe even 30 yds. Would make synergy with overcharge that much better.

Boulderfist buffing RB damage is good, its what I was hoping they would add. Seems like a solid choice.


For Ascendance, I hope they change it to have set SB procs instead of shorter SS time. Making SB proc every 4-6 sec is a much better way to go about more consistent SS's. It needs an aoe component too... like I mentioned before, one of these ideas would be awesome:

While under Ascendance:

-Have Crash lightning proc a frost nova
-Your LL procs a frost cleave
-Your SS with stormbringer procs chain lightning

Don't see why our Ascendance has to be limited to single target when Elem and Resto get big aoe bonuses.




The change to 4set is better then relying on SS crits, it will mean we get stacks faster and possibly up to 10 within those 20 sec to refresh the buff. I would prefer this tho:


2 set = CL gives buff for 3% dmg and 3% crit
4 set = SS stacks buff increasing CL damage, up to 10. If atleast 5 stacks are consumed, your next LL strikes again hitting all targets infront of you.


Dunno if that is too much, but this way the buff in 2 set is not just crit, and for the 4 set with double LL it will be useful even on single target and help more with burstier cleave. I think they can still do much better then these set bonuses, but I guess its whatever for now.

Enha resource with current abilities and talents is worst resource in WoW history. You either have it or not, sometimes it doesnt matter if you track it, you swim in maelstrom, but with some "lucky" procs you are starving. No golden point. While this can work in particular talent setup you start to struggle when you add some MS spending talent. Not only numbers, but the whole playstyle start to stutter. First when they announced new resource for enha I was extremely happy, I was hoping for insane playstyle where you can play around maelstrom, but now it's mostly SB luck for average player and higher. After 1 week of extensive play (after the break) I cant stand it anymore. I would rather take MoP playstyle and the only thing I would miss is Crash Lightning.

I don't mind it. I prefer simple.... too complicated and it becomes a hassle. Its a simple build and spend resource, with LL as the MS dump. You can always pick stuff like overcharge or fury of air if you want something more involved with maelstrom resource and actually have to manage it. Seems like the talents have a built in balance where you can only pick a few MS spenders without cluttering it up as you mentioned, so perhaps that is intended. I really enjoy the playstyle for the most part.... just miss a burst cleave ability (wtb frost slash!!), otherwise we got a nice toolkit and you don't gotta overthink things too much, always something you can push.

[Trollfat]

New PTR build is out.

Can anyone explain the Empowered Stormlash nerf to me? Was the base spell buffed elsewhere?