Is the Horde weaker than the Alliance?

[Mehrunes]

I wouldn't say a direct hit then continued attack with a 20 ton flaming rock demon is "easy" to bring down, nor are hundreds of (I believe) bomb/armed bat riders. Besides, this was comparing airship to airship, not airship to infernal or airship to bats. It was a direct comparison of war technology. What is your point with this?

Yet another thing you pulled out of your ass. Unless you really believe Varian managed to knock something weighting 20 tons off the airship (or, you know, didn't become a smudge when it hit him earlier). Also, I think @Combatbulter's point was pretty clear in that even if the airships were somehow better, which you based on nothing solid, is not the great military advantage you paint it to be if it can be destroyed by bats.

None of that detracts from the fact that the Draenei civilization has been around for IIRC 20,000 years (since the betrayal of Kil'Jaden and Archimonde to Sargeras' legion) and mostly intact. You know, until the orcs committed genocide against them and the crackhead elves tried to finish the job.

Their civilization consists on relying on Naaru technology, abandoning pretty much everything Eredar behind them, hating Fel, demons and Warlocks and constantly escaping the Legion. Top notch civilization they established.

There's not a single source saying the Elves are in a "constant" state of decline, and AGAIN, this has nothing to do with their integrity as an established civilization. It seems like you are saying things just to say them and seem like you are winning an "e-argument".

Other than them losing territory over the years.

This is just willful ignorance. The human kingdoms are ALL DESCENDED FROM ONE PROGENITOR KINGDOM, they all had strong ties for centuries and even after they evolved into wholly separate kingdoms there was no real conflict between them (what with plenty of outside antagonists like trolls to focus on). They had trade and diplomatic ties the entire time. Refusing to assist in a war (for which I'd frankly like a source) does not constitute a lack of strong ties.

And Draenei and Man'ari are still the same race. Given how long they live, they still remember each other on personal basis. Look at dem strong ties. Or maybe them having common ancestry means nothing. Whoa :O And there was an ongoing rivalry between Stromgarde and Alterac. Which, lo and behold, did include wars. Gilneas was isolationist. Alterac betrayed the Alliance and was destroyed for it. Smaller kingdoms clashed with Lordaeron leadership even after the Alliance is formed. Which is why almost all of them left it after the Second War. And http://wow.gamepedia.com/Gnoll_War is where northern kingdoms refused to aid Stromwind. Oh, well, at least you correctly called your post willfully ignorant.

The first alliance's military cooperation began to break down because of taxes levied to keep the invading forces of the horde alive and in internment camps rather than just slaughter them all. Genn Greymane in particular stormed out of a session of Alliance leaders because of this. This doesn't detract from the fact the alliance was formed in the name of cooperation and protection of each nation's sovereignty and citizens. Suggesting otherwise is just so much malarky, and you know it.

The message of "greater good" just oozes from this elaboration of yours. Especially the part about Alliance crumbling because Lordaeron didn't agree on genocide.

Exactly my point. The High King is more of a military coordinator than a supreme leader. Each Alliance nation has it's own capable and established leadership, even if Blizzard decided to screw up the writing of a few of them a couple of times (10,000 year old military leader of the night elves falling for easy bait into a trap laid by garrosh's simpleton commanders? yeah right. metzen probably thought that one up)

And Horde's leaders don't count, because reasons.

Gilneas is in the hands of the Alliance in the lore "Battle for Gilneas" is the horde trying to force their way back in after having had their asses booted out by the 7th legion and supporting elements through a small strip of land on the northern coast. I'm sure you knew that, even if you like to pretend otherwise. The Northrend offensive was costly but not disastrous (and it was only truly costly because of garrosh's betrayal of the first open assault on icecrown, and sylvanas'-- oops. sorry. "Putress' " betrayal at the wrathgate). Andorhol was a colonization effort, not an invasion (horde slaughtered mostly civilians, per usual).

Jesus Christ, this is just sad. Battle for Gilneas battleground happens after Silverpine questline. In which, you know (OK, that's just a figure of speech, you obviously don't know squat about the topic), 7th Legion was defeated and Worgen capitulated, leading to Forsaken victory. Battle for Gilneas is a new attempt by the Alliance. A failed attempt, since as we can later see in Fangs of the Father questline, Gilneas is controlled by Worgen under the control of Black Dragonflight. Ans even later we learn from UVG that Gilneas has been abandoned.

Icecrown "betrayal" wasn't led by Garrosh, Garrosh disagreed with it and reprimanded the leader responsible and wasn't a betrayal because Alliance already started a war. The bit about Wrathgate and trying to pin it on Sylvanas, as well as putting Putress' name in quotation marks is just dishonest horseshit of the highest magnitude. Andorhal was an attempt to secure an outpost on Undercity's doorstep. Where the civilians officially formed a militia. And then attacked the Forsaken and broke the truce with them that Thassarian made.

Regardless of ALL these particulars, the Alliance, barring possibly the Gilneans and Draenei, have huge population bases from which to recover from war losses. Nearly every Horde race is refugees or leftovers. The Orcs are the remnants of an invasion force that were kept in a few internment camps before escaping and losing large numbers on the voyage at sea. The darkspears are refugees of a tribe that was decimated by murlocs (MURLOCS) and had it's remnants added to the orcish fleet as they sailed to kalimdor. the tauren were self-described as nearly driven to extinction by the centaur before the horde came along to help. the forsaken can only reproduce by conscripting new undead slaves via a few val'kyr that sided with Sylvanas after the lich king's death and were only a small splinter group that escaped his control during TFT. The Blood elves were described as being some absurdly small percent of a percent of blood elves that survived the invasion of Quel'Thalas but didn't actively go with Kael to become legion slaves.

Gnomes lost the majority of their race when Gnomeregan fell. Humans are from a kindgom that was demolished by the Orcs. Orcs' population was rather large, which is why it was so costly to keep them alive. Not all were enslaved to begin with. And they didn't lose "large numbers" on the voyage at sea. New Forsaken have free will. Val'kyr's number is irrelevant since they resurrect people en masse. During Cataclysm it was hundreds daily. The original Forsaken amount to half of the Scourge Forces in Lordaeron at the time. Blood Elves are 9% of Elves that survived the Scourge invasion. Kael only took a small force.

Lorewise Gilneas is abandoned, though I see the main problem here you rely on ingame lore, which is quite incomplete.

That portrayal of Gilneas' situation is bullcrap even when going by what we see in-game.

Metzen said the Alliance is the only superpower going into WoD.

And then WoD happened where Alliance had losses like an entire expedition led by Taylor or one of their largest outposts on Azeroth while the Horde lost three Shadow Hunters.

Not really post SoO as word of god pretty much stated put the Alliance in the position of military dominance. The super power. Right now the Alliance are likely at NATO levels of power, while the Horde is Russia levels. Strong enough, can cause a lot of damage. But going toe to toe with the Alliance just isn't something they can do.

First, what was before WoD and Legion. Secondly, that was even before their MoP clarification/retcon that only a minority of Orcs followed Garrosh.

no, since the fall of orgrimmar the horde have been staying alive on the alliances' mercy.
It's frankly ridiculous that the 2 factions are played of as nearly equals in-game.

Orgrimmar was ground zero for a medium sized war,
the trolls have lost their leader
the orcs have no real leader
the forsaken have yet again lost the ability to replenish their ranks

Forsaken still have four Val'kyr. Orcs have Saurfang. Vol'jin was a failure so no leader is better than him.

Stormwind is the biggest city in the world, by a wide margin
Ironforge is the only city in the world that has never been breached by any enemy.
and most importantly of all, the alliance is unified. and while there's doubt about anduins leadership skills, there doesn't appear to be any dissent.

Which is why Genn attacked the Horde on his own, against Anduin's orders. And since we don't have a compedium on city sized and populations, the claim about Stormwind is unsbustantiated. Stormwind had to be rebuild from ground up after it was decimated by the Old Horde. It doesn't put positive prospects to its size or a population number that would lead to that size.

a now limited supply of them though. And with Helya dead, there's really no way for her to get more.

Blizzard is planning something for the Forsaken, we just don't know what yet.

Hopefully it involvies Sylvie dying or getting returned to real life or some such bullcrap

They always had a limited supply of them.

So your response is effectively "NUH UH!!!!"?

Ok then.

So you didn't see what Goblin engineers were capable of during MoP?

Yes lets just forget the fact that she invaded their fucking kingdom unprovoked for no reason at all.

She isn't innocent.

Garrosh did.

But yeah OT: the Horde is Very weakend. A large part of the orcs Joined Garrosh and so died. same with trolls, what casulies they have taken, they have always only been a small faction of trolls. Taurens In warcraft 3, was almost wiped out by centaures, and a fair bit is with the "rebel" so also weaken their numbers.
Blood elves are VERY low on people as, most got butchred in the 3 war. And the Forsaken are now getting stale. so yeah. The alliance got more "force" right now.

A minority of Orcs followed Garrosh to the end. As for the Alliance... Draenei were hunted by the Legion for eons, were almost wiped out by the Orcs, barely survived fight with Kael's forces and then were invaded by the Legion, with all of their survivors managing to fit under a small dome of light made by Velen. Gnomes blew up a majority of their race. Night Elves imploded the world, banished a large part of their race, lost people in Satyr War and War of the Shifting Hands, sacrificed their immortality in the Third War and then had their ass kicked by the Orcs constantly. Playable humans are survivors of a kingdom that was burned to the ground by the Old Horde. Worgen fit in a tree in Darnassus. The only races that didn't suffer colossal defeats are the Dwarves and the Forsaken.

Know what a reasonable person does when a genocidal psychopath leader wants to murder your people and send them to their deaths? You turn on them.

Yeah, that'd worked wonders with Kor'kron stationed in their capital and Garrosh sending his generals to watch over Sylvanas.

Do you know what would have happened if dear ol Sylvie went to Gilneas with her army, and instead of invading told Genn the Orcs were going to invade Gilneas and kill them all, and that she was there to help Gilneas? She could have had the leverage to ally herself with Gilneas, and stood against the Orcs together. Know what would have happened then? Dead Orcs, dead Garrosh, that's what.

The Worgen were already attacked before Sylvanas got involved. What was she supposed to do? Tell them it was all a prank and hope they give a shit?

Desperation makes people do many things... The only reason the two of them hate each other is because of her killing his son.

Genn isn't an idiot, if it was "work with the forsaken and live" or "don't and get crushed by the horde", which one do you really think he would do?

Which is seen crystal clear in Legion, where Azeroth is on the brink of annihilation and instead of working with the Horde Genn attacks them. What a total not-idiot you got there. Genn, the diplomat of the year. Hell, he had trouble working with the Alliance at the start.

I'm not sure why people think the Alliance and Horde are competitive technologically. The Dwarves/Gnomes are way ahead. Just look at Ironforges military district and airport.

*Meanwhile in Bilgewater Harbor and Underhold*

Don't forget the huge "loss" of the Darkspear walking into the Iron Juggernaut.

That's actually a boon to the Horde.

Considering what he saw in the undercity it made sense.

Well, there's that, but he still wanted to steamroll it before he saw that (and after he was informed by Jaina that the Wrathgate was on the Legion and rebel Apothecaries).

As a horde player, I'd say yes the alliance right now is stronger. The horde has wasted a lot of manpower to endless wars and internal strife. The Undead are not exactly infinite. I wouldn't be surprised if lore wise pandarens right now are more in the alliance camp. I would also say the war exhaustion is quite heavy upon the horde at this time

The Alliance wasted a lot of manpower in Cata though. Because Varian was a moron and he thought he could open 50 different frontlines without stretching his forces too thin.

[Xirrohon]

Both factions are currently reeling from their losses of leadership and morale. I don't think you can say one of them really has a leg up on the other at the current moment.

This is exactly how I feel.

[Aucald]

In a literary narrative, if something is mentioned it is significant. Children's week quest is not there for amusement, it's there to make a statement over Sylvanas.

I disagree - WoW is full of throw-away references, gags, and pop-culture non-sequiturs. Children's Week is largely there for amusement, and few to none of its ramifications have ever been explored outside the context of the in-game holiday (e.g. Salandria's adoption by Liadrin, the fates foreseen by the Bronze Dragonflight, etc. etc.) What Sylvanas says to the Horde orphan is essentially what every Warchief has said to a visiting orphan. It's also worth noting that the very first words of the orphan to Sylvanas question her commitment to the other races of the Horde:

Orcish Orphan says: My friend at the orphanage said you'd always pick the Forsaken above the Horde and abandon us. Is that true?
Ambassador Sunsorrow says: You forget yourself, child! Do you know who stands before you?
Lady Sylvanas Windrunner says: I do not require defending, ambassador. Young one, the mantle of warchief is heavy, but I was chosen to bear the burden.

If a mostly random orphan questions Sylvanas' ascension as Warchief then how widespread is that sentiment among the other people within the Horde?

[ravenmoon]

Except for parts of Feralas and a tiny fragment of Desolace and Stonetalon, Night Elves controlled nothing south from Ashenvale at the time of Horde's arrival. I.e. not most of Kalimdor. And their ancient civilization of tree-hugging has proven to be inferior to the Orcs, so it being old is not an argument. Also, they have no meaningful history with the Alliance until a decade ago, which was kinda the (false) point of the post you're defending.

As far as I can recall, until WC3 landed humans and orcs, the night elves had noting south of Stonetalon, Ashenvale to Hyjal was mainly where you could find them guarding the Well of Eternity and masking Kalimdor magic and sight from atop Stonetalon peak. Desolace/Feralas were deserted since the sundering, I doubt they were even aware of the Shen'dralar.

As far as I know they only travelled once south of their forests, and that was during the War of the Shifting Sands - and it was likely by boat and air seeing classic mentions no one of them had touched foot in Feralas since the sundering leaving the past in the past. They themselves were myths/legends to the Tauren and most of the denizens of Kalimdor according to WC3, and their sightings were extremely rare south of Ashenvale/stonetalon - they also did not allow anyone to cross into those borders because of the Well of Eternity.




@Tyrion Moonblade I wouldn't say night elves had a civilization in the last 10 thousand years, it was more a society, one of the things i found remarkable about them at first was that they had dropped such pursuits and desires, having gone past the need or carnal desires for cities and structures etc. I was a bit off about the reason ofc, I now conclude the banning of arcane magic meant they had no power and couldn't utilize their knowledge base to rebuild their ruins, this coupled with the massive shift in philosophy to the monk-like druidic way of living with the land - does not necessitate un-necessary things or luxuries of their former lives. Another major reason is that they were entirely dedicated to fulfilling their new role as defenders of Azeroth, joining the dragonflights. Dragons who do not live in structures or run civilizations, live witht he land, yet are amongst the most intelligent and cultured of beings. As an immortal, with magic banned, no need for such things.

I also feel they showed great nobility and sacrifice. They were focused on their task in isolation to the exclusion of rebuilding society, future generations, food/trade - giving their circumstances and their immortality, such things likely lost meaning in the vigil culture. As you observe in the nightborne, they felt themselves way above everyone else and though building nothing to show for it or not gneerating a civilizaiton at all, they still carried about their work faithfully until the return of the legion in WC3, and the big secret of the well of eternity revealed - after which everything changes. Fandral Staghelm leads the charge in building a civiliation, grows a huge world tree, the biggest by far of the world trees, as a massive statement "WE'RE BACK" the night elves would guide the yougner/lesser races into the future ensuring no reckless activity is done, and would benefit them of the elves' wisdom, knowledge and counsel. They cannot live in isolation anymore he strongly feels, and must rise to the task of leadership as the oldest age-group amongst the races and the most experienced.

It is at this point the night elves build their first city after the sundering Darnasus. It would be 6 years afterwards that the ban on arcane magic lifted and the highborne return, and 6 years after that Suramar is returned and with it the elven families and friends they thought lost with it in the new improved night elven arcane enhanced version - the nightborne.

[Mehrunes]

The Horde has been in shambled since the ending of MoP, when their warchief was dethroned and the Alliance king considered dismanteling them on the spot but didn't because plot armour.

Or because Alliance was already exhausted and Varian didn't want to risk more men, when besieging Thunder Bluff would have taken a year by Wrathion's estimates and taking Undercity and Silvermoon would most likely last even longer, all with monstrous casualties. And because holding Horde territory subjugated would be even more tasking. So he opted for diplomatic solution when he saw the opportunity.

The Horde's strength should've been bolstered by Sylvanas' val'kyr ever since the end of Silverpine, but we didn't see em until Legion when they were the deus-ex-machina.

The bolstering of the Horde by the Val'kyr is achieved via them making more Forsaken, who are seen aplenty. They are too precious for Sylvanas to use on the frontlines, which was kinda the point of the cinematic. They were Sylvanas' last resort and her risking them showed her value to the Horde.

[Deleted]

I disagree - WoW is full of throw-away references, gags, and pop-culture non-sequiturs. Children's Week is largely there for amusement, and few to none of its ramifications have ever been explored outside the context of the in-game holiday (e.g. Salandria's adoption by Liadrin, the fates foreseen by the Bronze Dragonflight, etc. etc.) What Sylvanas says to the Horde orphan is essentially what every Warchief has said to a visiting orphan. It's also worth noting that the very first words of the orphan to Sylvanas question her commitment to the other races of the Horde:



If a mostly random orphan questions Sylvanas' ascension as Warchief then how widespread is that sentiment among the other people within the Horde?

I think that's good - and you said before I implied the Horde leaders were 100% with Sylvanas, which I didn't say anywhere. They're obviously not 100% with her, but they're ckearly not against her. I really think Blizzard has a willingness of transitionikg Sylvanas from the fanbase percieved "Lich Queen" (a term I've always despised) into a more grounded character. I think Stormheim is the inflection point - basically deempowering the Forsaken, thus Sylvanas having to gain the trust of all the Horde army.
I know a lot of interactions in Children's Week are left in the air since basically tbc, but I think the anwer of Sylvanas is genuine.
Oh, and you left out the last part of the dialogue, *conveniently*
"Orphan: So it's not true? Thank the ancestors! I wouldn't want you to be my enemy, Lady Sylvanas.
Sylvanas: You needn't worry, child. I am your warchief."

[Mehrunes]

I would say the Alliance is still wholly more unified than the Horde, ESPECIALLY because Sylvanas was named Warchief. I really wished they'd gone into the factions more in this expansion, because there should be some REALLY heavy questioning of her leadership ESPECIALLY after Stormheim.

I can't imagine the Orcs, Trolls, or Tauren sitting well with her decision to make a pact with Helya. Hell, even her own Undead and Blood Elves are probably questioning it since Odyn has been a willing ally since our arrival.

Why would they care about Helya? Helya is nothing to the Horde. Adventurers only went after her at behest of Odyn.

We once again have a splintering of the Horde, but the Alliance leadership is still wholly strong. They don't need a High King - Their races functioned well as a whole before Varian was named High King, and they will continue to even with a weak High King. The Warchief, however, is meant to bind the races of the Horde together through common cause, and Sylvanas is not doing anything of the sort.

You mean how Genn is doing his own thing against Anduin's orders? And where did you get that the Warchief is meant to bind the races of the Horde through a common cause?

[Beloren]

Where are you seeing this less-than-majority support across the Horde for Sylvanas? All racial leaders agreed by it. Almost all secondary leaders and dozens of unnamed soldiers were present at Vol'jin barbecue and have shown their support for Sylvanas after her speech. Other secondary leaders, including Drek'thar who opposed the Forsaken in the past, are present in Royal Quarter of Undercity. Also, Alliance sent majority of her forces after the Aegis.

that's now, after she proved herself to them in such style on the Broken shore, I think before that many of them did not like or want her, but no one doubted her capability and what she brought to the table for the horde. I think they respect, I think they see she's not quite the evil witch bitch she had seemed, why save them then if she wished them all dead? Also they must be thinking she's changed a bit too. Characters grow afterall. Maybe Sylvanas is mostly mis-understood

[Deleted]

Yeah Garrosh sure united the races of the Horde through a common cause: himself. XD

[Zandalariprelate]

Right now both Alliance and Horde don't had any real head in the state, Sylvanas isn't acting like a Warchief and only her people and Theron are supporting her, and only the tauren had a clear leader but he is busy in staying in the background, Anduin is in the same position of Sylvanas he is charged with a burden that he would pass to another dude, only recently in this patch is taking more serious his new role and will actually try to do something. I think Legion is trying to build up a world without the Horde and Alliance or demonstrated that both organization are becoming more dead weight that is worthy, maybe the pvp part wont be taking any plot of the lore anymore

[Mehrunes]

Did they? I mean they took advantage of the Cataclysm to take on Gilneas, which was in the middle of a Civil War at the time and from what I've seen only had civilian militia's and no standing army. They used plague on South Shore but I don't think they fought the dwarves much, there's only a small hold of them in the hills beneath alterac anyway. At Andorhal the Undead were nearly defeated till Sylvanas brought in the Val'kyr and forced alliance dead and horde dead alike to fight for her.

They also defeated the 7th Legion reinforcements to Gilneas. And Ambermill. And the thing in Alterac was still pretty much annihilation of Stormpike Dwarves. Then they blockaded Gilneas for almost five years.

It's an inference based on Sylvanas' record within the Horde since the Forsaken's acceptance - Sylvanas has always enjoyed the least popularity as a Horde racial leader just as her Forsaken have the weakest connection to the Horde of all its client-races (e.g. their default reputations, the legacy of the Wrath Gate, the controversy surrounding the Val'kyr, the Blight, etc. etc.) Her acceptance as Warchief of the Horde is based less on her character or her acumen at leadership and more on an acceptance of Vol'jin's deathwish and prophecy inspired by the Loa. That the Horde has come together under a new leader during wartime isn't surprising, but neither is it an unqualified acceptance of her as Warchief. It's very easy for me to see many members within the Horde, as well as the other leaders, as questioning her motives and actions - much as they've always done when she was just the leader of the Forsaken.

Blood Elves have the same reputations and have the legacy of wanting to bail on the Horde when shit hits the fan. And by shit hitting the fan I mean a group of their scouts dying due to their lack of awareness and Lor'themar blaming it on Garrosh not spoonfeeding him information and then Aethas and Rommath not dying in a ritual they knew would be dangerous from the get go.

And the part of Vol'jin cinematic where he says how Sylvanas saved the entire Horde and we get a zoom-in on the highest level Horde leadership nodding in acknowledgment doesn't matter, because god Lord and Savior Kerrilldan knows why. Obviously the Horde is incapable of reevaluating and changing their outlooks over the years.

It's also entirely disjointed from her leadership. Merely a part of Vol'jin's death-wish and prophecy. That materialized, traveled back in time and then saved the Horde creating a time-loop paradox.

Finally, the secondary Horde leaders that also cheered at her are obviously privy to Vol'jin's last words because his death was broadcast live or something. And the part where Sylvanas had players (at least), some of the most renowned heroes of the Horde by now, publicly swear fealty to her afterwards, with Lor'themar and Baine reinforcing her message, means absolutely nothing.

[Stardrift]

Yeah, have faith that the same war machine of savages lead by a tyrant will do the right thing this time. They give the Horde so much attention but it's all negative. Ending that prolonged war then and there is what the Alliance should've done reastically. End the needless killing. A heinous act but the best for Varian's people.

But nah, because plot armor. Nothing more, nothing less.

Except it wasn't Vol'jin who told her to fuck off, it was Lor'themar. Garrosh knew about the Val'kyr, but even after what happened in Sylvanas' rampage through Silverpine Garrosh didn't care to adress the matter again.

Yea, all stuff that was added to give sense to Legion and MoP. You know, Odyn and Lei Shen, both characters they added for out of the blue stories.

Keep trying, this amuses me.

lol now you've just got to be trolling at this point. Or just flat stupid. Not gonna bother with you anymore. No matter what I say you're just going to deny it, say the same thing, then go "lol got em"

[Aucald]

I think that's good - and you said before I implied the Horde leaders were 100% with Sylvanas, which I didn't say anywhere. They're obviously not 100% with her, but they're ckearly not against her. I really think Blizzard has a willingness of transitionikg Sylvanas from the fanbase percieved "Lich Queen" (a term I've always despised) into a more grounded character. I think Stormheim is the inflection point - basically deempowering the Forsaken, thus Sylvanas having to gain the trust of all the Horde army.
I know a lot of interactions in Children's Week are left in the air since basically tbc, but I think the anwer of Sylvanas is genuine.
Oh, and you left out the last part of the dialogue, *conveniently*
"Orphan: So it's not true? Thank the ancestors! I wouldn't want you to be my enemy, Lady Sylvanas.
Sylvanas: You needn't worry, child. I am your warchief."

I didn't say you said that, I said that implying the other Horde leaders would've forgotten Sylvanas' checkered history within the Horde as part of her rise to Warchief would be tantamount to 100% acceptance, which we both seem to agree she doesn't have. I think Vol'jin's approval of her as Warchief may have changed some of her previous detractors' views if only temporarily - the decision seems to be rally around her in the short-term, but I feel confident that the other leaders remain wary of her and watch her every action like hawks. Her actions in Stormheim seem questionable to me, but I'm not sure if the other leaders are privy to her agenda with Eyir and Helya or not - it hasn't come up again and the ramifications of her tangle with Genn isn't known yet.

I left out the last exchange between the orphan and Sylvanas because it was already covered - what else is Sylvanas going to say? It's not like she would admit to Forsaken bias even if it were true, especially not in front of a visiting orphan and her assembled and various heads of state. I do think Sylvanas has a bias but I don't think its egregious, no more or less than any other racial leader would have for their own as it were (Thrall for the Orcs, Vol'jin for the Trolls, etc. etc.) I do think Sylvanas is committed to the Horde, though; and not just out for her own agenda.

[CaptainV]

In terms of military strength and power the Horde has virtually none left if you go by the logic of previous expansions and events.

Garrosh spent most of their military power on a bloodthirsty campaign against the Alliance, that later lead to a civil war decimating the population of Orgrimmar to a much smaller portion and crippling the Orc forces especially.

Trying to recover from this by maybe getting some AU Draenor Orcs might help, but even then most of the AU Draenor Orcs wont likely help the Horde fight the Alliance after their own story was about uniting together with the Draenei to defeat the Legion.

The Trolls are leaderless, a small tribe against their entire species (The Zandalari unitying all the otehr tribes against the Darkspear) and are essentially nearly extinct at this point.

The Tauren have many tribes, but no reason to unite, and no reason to fight a big war or against a large foe except for survival. The Tauren being a peaceful people are not warmongering enough to want another big war, even Baine hated the idea which opts out them as an army.

Goblins are literally allied only to who ever pays the most. Though Gallywix has shown surpising levels of unity with the Horde, likely for surivval sake at this point, its not impossible for him to go rogue at any point if he wanted to given how weak the Horde is at this point. His is probably one of the stronger positions at this point having so much power.

Blood Elves are the second largest military still in action thanks to keeping most of their forces back in Quel'thalas during MoP, this means their forces conserved enough strength to be a formiddable army, but given their recent events, its unlikely they will fight against Night Elves or High Elves again given they have every reason to unite with their kin, rather htan fight them.

And the Forsaken are the largest military force the Horde has right now with only unethical powers keeping their ability to sustain their army plausable. But without Eyir and the Val'kyr they will inevitably wither into death forever, this essentially dooms their short-lasting necromantic army to an inevitable future, survive by constantly wiping out others, or by becomming slaves to a certain Lich King again, as that may be their only alternative in the end.

In conclusion, the Horde is barly an army anymore, its almost gone forever, at this point, its very likely it will merge with the Alliance to survive in order for both factions to become the Army of Light of prophecy.

[Mehrunes]

that's now, after she proved herself to them in such style on the Broken shore, I think before that many of them did not like or want her, but no one doubted her capability and what she brought to the table for the horde. I think they respect, I think they see she's not quite the evil witch bitch she had seemed, why save them then if she wished them all dead? Also they must be thinking she's changed a bit too. Characters grow afterall. Maybe Sylvanas is mostly mis-understood

And post-Broken Shore is the relevant time period in context of her tenure as the Warchief. That the Horde leaders may have had other opinions of her in the past is not something I dispute. Hell, Thrall installed Kor'kron in her city even though he was fully aware the Wrathgate was caused by Burning Legion-backed rebels that kicked Sylvanas out of her city. But that's in the past and is not reflective on their stances on her now. As you said, characters grow. And their perspectives change. Well, at least in non-Aucald version of the story.

[Traveler Voltin]

No they haven't, they made clear the Alliance is stronger right now, not that they could just waltz over and steamroll the horde, the war would still be long and very costly, which is precisely why Varian didn't want to keep on fighting, it would have taken years.

Right now they are even. The legion bitch slapped the alliance down to horde level.

[Deleted]

Or because Alliance was already exhausted and Varian didn't want to risk more men, when besieging Thunder Bluff would have taken a year by Wrathion's estimates and taking Undercity and Silvermoon would most likely last even longer, all with monstrous casualties. And because holding Horde territory subjugated would be even more tasking. So he opted for diplomatic solution when he saw the opportunity.

The bolstering of the Horde by the Val'kyr is achieved via them making more Forsaken, who are seen aplenty. They are too precious for Sylvanas to use on the frontlines, which was kinda the point of the cinematic. They were Sylvanas' last resort and her risking them showed her value to the Horde.

Right, because dismantling the Horde instantly means having to besiege every race's city slaughtering countless citizens. It couldn't mean giving the Horde's leaders the option to join the Alliance or claim neutrality. It wasn't like Lor'themar wasn't already in talks with Varian to rejoin the Alliance. Baine would've obviously been unreasonable and put his pride above the wellbeing of his people. Gallywix is fiercely loyal to the Horde's cause and not at all invested in it all because of profit and the fact he was forced to join the Horde in the first place.
You speak of diplomacy, but there was no compromise made. Just let them be on their dandy way untill the next sketchy af leader takes over and rules with an iron fist,
Guess who's coincidentally Warchief as of Legion.

I honestly doubt Sylvanas gave a rat's ass about the survival of the soldiers on the Broken Shore if she and her co-leaders and superior weren't all there to begin with. Everyone would've questioned 'Where the fuck were the Val'kyr? they could've saved us but you didn't call for them, why is that?' As if she isn't distrusted enough.

[Aucald]

Blood Elves have the same reputations and have the legacy of wanting to bail on the Horde when shit hits the fan. And by shit hitting the fan I mean a group of their scouts dying due to their lack of awareness and Lor'themar blaming it on Garrosh not spoonfeeding him information and then Aethas and Rommath not dying in a ritual they knew would be dangerous from the get go.

While it's true the Blood Elves are in a similar boat to the Forsaken, it is also immaterial? The plight of the Blood Elves within Horde politics doesn't change that of the Forsaken.

And the part of Vol'jin cinematic where he says how Sylvanas saved the entire Horde and we get a zoom-in on the highest level Horde leadership nodding in acknowledgment doesn't matter, because god Lord and Savior Kerrilldan knows why. Obviously the Horde is incapable of reevaluating and changing their outlooks over the years.

They agree with Vol'jin that Sylvanas' actions on the Broken Shore were necessary and to the positive, sure. Does that overcome *everything* else that has gone down in the past? I doubt it. The Horde's acceptance of Sylvanas as Warchief is the reevaluation we're looking at here, but it neither requires nor implies a complete 180 in how Sylvanas is viewed.

It's also entirely disjointed from her leadership. Merely a part of Vol'jin's death-wish and prophecy. That materialized, traveled back in time and then saved the Horde creating a time-loop paradox.

I don't know what you're talking about. Her leadership in what respect? Following Vol'jin's order/plea to call a retreat from the Broken Shore? Following his request to become Warchief and lead the Horde in the Legion conflict? I assume this is sarcasm, but I've no clue what you're basing it on.

Finally, the secondary Horde leaders that also cheered at her are obviously privy to Vol'jin's last words because his death was broadcast live or something. And the part where Sylvanas had players (at least), some of the most renowned heroes of the Horde by now, publicly swear fealty to her afterwards, with Lor'themar and Baine reinforcing her message, means absolutely nothing.

Yes, the Horde is obviously going to present a united front to its soldiers, commanders, and generals - the leaders did agree to Sylvanas' ascent after all. Nothing is served by Lor'themar or Baine publicly slandering the new Warchief in front of the assembled even if they nurse their own private misgivings (which they almost certainly do). It doesn't make them right as it has yet to be seen how Sylvanas' tenure as Warchief will go. Insofar as swearing fealty to the new Warchief goes that is pretty much part and parcel of any change in leadership.

[Deleted]

lol now you've just got to be trolling at this point. Or just flat stupid. Not gonna bother with you anymore. No matter what I say you're just going to deny it, say the same thing, then go "lol got em"

Sure, ignore everything if you can't conjure up any good counter arguments and call me a troll, stupid and claim me not worthy of your time and effort.

Ironic.

[Mehrunes]

Right, because dismantling the Horde instantly means having to besiege every race's city slaughtering countless citizens. It couldn't mean giving the Horde's leaders the option to join the Alliance or claim neutrality. It wasn't like Lor'themar wasn't already in talks with Varian to rejoin the Alliance. Baine would've obviously been unreasonable and put his pride above the wellbeing of his people. Gallywix is fiercely loyal to the Horde's cause and not at all invested in it all because of profit and the fact he was forced to join the Horde in the first place.

And the Horde would agree why? Vol'jin made it clear in 5.3 questline that Alliance is no friends of his and that this is an alliance of necessity. Claiming neutrality is a meaningless option where the alternative is peace anyway. What, was Horde going to attack the Alliance's allies otherwise? Because there really aren't any. And did you miss the part where Jaina's actions pushed Lor'themar back into Horde for good, or are you deliberately ignoring it for some nonsensical reason? And woo, Gallywix. Because Goblins are the backbone of the Horde. And they never favored the Horde over the Alliance even when they were neutral.

You speak of diplomacy, but there was no compromise made. Just let them be on their dandy way untill the next sketchy af leader takes over and rules with an iron fist,
Guess who's coincidentally Warchief as of Legion.

Other than the peace treaty made in War Crimes, sure And where is it shown that Sylvanas rules the Horde with an iron fist, again? She didn't take over either, she was chosen by the Horde.

I honestly doubt Sylvanas gave a rat's ass about the survival of the soldiers on the Broken Shore if she and her co-leaders and superior weren't all there to begin with. Everyone would've questioned 'Where the fuck were the Val'kyr? they could've saved us but you didn't call for them, why is that?' As if she isn't distrusted enough.

So in your riveting scenario Sylvanas should have called for them while she wasn't there? Fascinating. And weirdly enough, no one asked her where the Val'kyr were in the past where Horde lost some battles. Because four Val'kyr aren't really a military powerhouse in their own right.