How high of a minimum wage would you be willing to tolerate?

[Shakou]

Completely different market and economy. There are a lot more variables to consider. Backfire effect in action. Try again.

You're ignorant. There's no use in debating you, you will literally throw out actual facts that undermine your point of view in favor of your beliefs that haven't even been tested in this "completely different market and economy".

The real point and you don't have a fucking argument against this is this and it was spelled out pretty plainly to you: if you don't pay workers a living wage, enough so they can contribute in a meaningful way to purchasing more than just their bare minimum living needs but having some purchasing power, economies stagnate, jobs get outsourced, markets crash and recessions happen.

You don't get it because you don't want to accept the fact that none of that is happening by accident.

- - - Updated - - -

That's not what a Big Mac costs in the United States. Here's the McD's price sheet. I don't know what your citation there is, but it looks like reliable to me than The Economist. YMMV.

You realize that this is literally what inflation adjustment is, right? The cost of certain sectors showing a great secular rise in cost than other sectors doesn't actually refute total inflation numbers nor does anecdote. I linked the actual data.

What the fuck are you even talking about? One is just from a different year, but it's the same index, those numbers didn't come from the Economist they're just reporting them. You just can't read the chart. There are only 3 countries in the world where the Big Mac is more expensive than the USA and Australia, where $15 (or even more) an hour USD working at McDonalds is a reality, is not one of them. That was true in 2016 and it is true now.

[sgthotrod]

So that burger flipper is less of a human than you are? I don't get why people get so jealous about what other people make.

You do realize when the minimum wage goes up, skilled labor wages also go up, so your $17 an hour would go up.

A full time job, 40 hours a week, should ALWAYS be a livable wage.

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That's why it should be indexed with inflation.

Something like 15*x*y, where x is a coefficient to adjust for inflation and y is a coefficient to adjust for the local cost of living.

So by your reasoning that 17yr old high school kid should be able to move out of his parents house get a place to live pay utilities, pay for food and clothes all from his burger flipping stating job? That's just stupid.

Oh and I never said that "guy" is less human then me. I got my first job when I was 12 delivering newspapers after school. As a sophomore in high school is flipped burgers at jack in the box. Senior year before graduation I worked as a clerk at 7-11. After graduation I joined the Army. Married at 20 first kid at 21 second kid at 23. My wife and I both managed to get college degrees. I have now been married 22 years. Hell my wife even managed to get her doctorate in nursing.

You start at the bottom and WORK YOUR WAY UP. Not start at the bottom and bitch because you don't make enough as your boss.

[Zython]

So by your reasoning that 17yr old high school kid should be able to move out of his parents house get a place to live pay utilities, pay for food and clothes all from his burger flipping stating job? That's just stupid.

Why?

Oh and I never said that "guy" is less human then me. I got my first job when I was 12 delivering newspapers after school. As a sophomore in high school is flipped burgers at jack in the box. Senior year before graduation I worked as a clerk at 7-11. After graduation I joined the Army. Married at 20 first kid at 21 second kid at 23. My wife and I both managed to get college degrees. I have now been married 22 years. Hell my wife even managed to get her doctorate in nursing.

You start at the bottom and WORK YOUR WAY UP. Not start at the bottom and bitch because you don't make enough as your boss.

It's almost like the economy is extremely different than it was when everything was handed to you on a silver platter. If you had to work in the conditions my generation faces, you would have starved to death years ago.

[Captain N]

So by your reasoning that 17yr old high school kid should be able to move out of his parents house get a place to live pay utilities, pay for food and clothes all from his burger flipping stating job? That's just stupid.

Oh and I never said that "guy" is less human then me. I got my first job when I was 12 delivering newspapers after school. As a sophomore in high school is flipped burgers at jack in the box. Senior year before graduation I worked as a clerk at 7-11. After graduation I joined the Army. Married at 20 first kid at 21 second kid at 23. My wife and I both managed to get college degrees. I have now been married 22 years. Hell my wife even managed to get her doctorate in nursing.

You start at the bottom and WORK YOUR WAY UP. Not start at the bottom and bitch because you don't make enough as your boss.

So how long did it take you to reach $15/hour with all that hard work narrative? I mean I was 16 in 1992 making $14/hour and today we just hired a brand new Custodian for $23/hour who just got out of high school. Maybe you were the one who made bad decisions eh?

[Adam Jensen]

So by your reasoning that 17yr old high school kid should be able to move out of his parents house get a place to live pay utilities, pay for food and clothes all from his burger flipping stating job? That's just stupid.

You're assuming that all minimum wage jobs are done by 17yr old high school kids. This is a myth. People of all walks of life find themselves trying to get by on minimum wage jobs.

You start at the bottom and WORK YOUR WAY UP. Not start at the bottom and bitch because you don't make enough as your boss.

No one is arguing for putting entry-level workers at the top. We're simply arguing for raising the bottom a little bit so those at the bottom are no longer in poverty nor on welfare. No one is arguing that people on the bottom should be paid the same as their bosses (except communists, and they're a bit ridiculous.)

[Typhoria]

About to start working at a Walmart distribution center, $17.75 starting pay in Tennessee. No prior experience in anything they do there, while I'm taking care of classes.

[Mackeyser]

Copied from a previous post I made a while back:

Increasing wages increases costs for everyone and everywhere because most businesses have employee’s. It is universal.

First of all: Not all industries are created equal. Any business with higher labor costs will suffer far more than a business that doesn't staff as many employees. Don't forget about the complete business cycle! Most of the pro min wage hike folks forget about the big picture.

Manufacturer -> Distributor -> Retailer -> Consumer

Let’s say a state has an instant 25 cent increase to min wage state wide. All business is conducted within the state. It starts at the Farm Owner, who has only Rent, farmers, seeds and hoes as his expenses. Not those kind of hoes, but the tools!

If I need to pay farmer Sam 25 cents more per hour, then the farm will have to sell those carrots for more $$$ in order to make the rent, maintain equipment and have some left over for a rainy day. Will that carrot costs 25 cents more each? No, but that 1 bundle/hour will cost 25 cents more. Think I am done? Nope! That same farmer's suppliers also have increase labor costs. For now, he doesn't need any new Seeds/hoes but eventually he will have to prepare to spend more. This can get convoluted very easily so I will keep it simple. The farm figures out that it must sell that bundle at 1.25 instead of 1.00 in order to maintain a healthy profit margin. The farmer could sell for only 1.20 but let’s say he either can't or is unwilling to do so. He has the future too think about. Not everyone will approach overhead increases the same way.

Now the food company "Acme" buys the bundles at 1.25. There are other suppliers out there, but most of them have the same increases. Since they are paying more per bundle that means they must resell them for more to grocery store. Since they use to sell it for 3 dollars, do they decide to sell it for 3.25 now? That answer is No, because their own labor costs have also increased. And their other suppliers have also raised prices. Acme's warehousemen get paid more (as well as every employee on the payroll). In fact, if the truck driver is making over min wage, then he should get a pay raise as well. In the end, with the extra costs from their suppliers, they figure that they must now sell that same bundle of carrots for 3.50 to the grocery store.

The Grocery store buys the carrots! They use to be bought for 3.00 and sold for 4.00, but now they must buy for 3.50. They planned on selling it for 4.50 but they also have that increased overhead as everyone else and in order to maintain healthy profits, they sell that same bundle 4.75. That is a 75-cent increase for a 25-cent increase for the farmer. This number is not a real-world scenario but just an example of how a price increase will “Pyramid” their way through the business cycle. That price went up 3 times and as you can see just gets passed onto the consumer.

The consumer now has more money to spend. Does he feel as though the value of carrots is worth the extra 75-cents? I guess it depends on the person. But in the end, his pay raise inflated the costs of carrots (and everything else) and weakened his savings account. Everything he buys will eventually cost more.

So, I guess the question is; where do you find the right balance? What kind of min wage increase makes the consumer better off than before? I guess the answer is partly based on where the consumer lives, and the rate of inflation. The consumers buying power should stay relative to the cost of living. I guess it depends on where we set our measuring stick. Should a min wage person make enough for rent or a mortgage? Should that life be comfortable or should there be a reason to better one’s self and be hard? Should they get government subsidies to go along with it?

Once we figure out our measuring stick, then we have to figure out a way of implementing it into the economy and this is where you get a lot of disagreements. A instant increase of 5 dollars per hour would literally cause business to belly up overnight. Small increases each year may take years to reach the desired level of buying power. Somewhere in the middle will see major inflation and a weakened dollar.

You misunderstand economics in so many ways.

A hamburger at McDonalds used to cost $0.69 thirty years ago. Now, it's still less than a dollar. How can that be?

The answer comes from efficiencies found in the marketplace and economies of scale.

The farmer can install an automated irrigation system and an automated delivery system for pesticides or fertilizers and pay less in labor costs.

Trucking in a few years will be driverless. As it is NOW, tractor trailers have a module that installs in the cab and costs LESS than the annual salary of a trucker, between $40-50K. So, the costs of transport will continue to diminish over time, especially as hybrids and electric vehicles including heavy trucks and tractor trailers.

Business is in business to...make money, NOT jobs. This is why when Carrier was enticed to stay...did it save a ton of jobs? Nope. What it did was give Carrier more resources to stay and invest in...robotics. So instead of Mexicans doing the work, robots in America will.

I'm not the biggest proponent of Sam Walton, but he did get one thing right: Wages are the enemy of profit.

Lost in the discussion of a minimum wage is that there is already WAY, WAY more work capacity than there is work... and that disparity will only get greater as we improve AI, automation and deep analytics. What's embedded in the minimum wage discussion are people being able to live beyond destitution and desperation. Systemically, we are eliminating much of the work that used to be done manually without changing the culture about people who are systemically excluded.

Are coal miners lazy because more than anything else including increased safety and environmental regulations, natural gas is making coal simply too expensive? Moreover, the new way most coal is extracted isn't from mines... it's from mountain top removal and TONS of automation.

Industry after industry is being automated, sometimes to near elimination. Visited a Travel Agent lately? Probably not. Almost certainly ANY travel a person engages in occurs using resources found online.

I'll end with this: we can continue to have discussions where we debate winners and losers, both culturally and systemically and ignore the 10 Ton elephant in the room or we can acknowledge that we are actually approaching that age where work shouldn't be about subsistence anymore more so because there is less work than there are people to do it.

Now, we have a choice. We can either be like the foreman on the docks during the depression and simply have our systems pick desperate people at random and allow the system to control people through an artificial constraint of resources... OR... we could simply let the robots do the work and spread the dividends from that to the people. I'm NOT saying that inventors shouldn't reap the gains of their inventions or that all work should be or will be eliminated. Rather, we can choose desperation and control or we can choose to have a coherent society based on shared values.

Arguments about minimum wage miss the point. In the interim, yes, we should have a higher minimum wage. $15 is fine. Seattle is doing it and the business within the limits are actually doing BETTER than those just across the street with much lower wages. The market can and will adjust.

What we ultimately need is a universal basic income. Canada, US...everywhere. Not universal in the worldwide sense, although that ultimately will make the most sense, but definitely one for each sovereign nation. I never remember anyone watching Star Trek and walking out saying, "those damn commies..." Once that is in place, we can focus education on actually educating people, we can encourage people to follow their passions (and I really don't need to hear about how we won't have doctors, scientists or engineers or pilots or people in the military and all we'll get is a billion painters, sculptors and street musicians) and we'll actually yield MORE innovation and MORE societal benefit.

Tl;dr Economies of scale, innovations and automation will account for much of the wage increase AS IT IS DOING in places like Seattle where the wage is already $15. However, the minimum wage discussion misses the point. There is too little work for too many workers, both in the US and worldwide. We can choose an economic system that relies on the desperation of the masses or we can choose an economic system that prefers to share some of the dividends of this automation and economies of scale to make things better for everyone.

It boils down to a philosophical choice. But remember, as this disparity continues, the only ones truly to be spared from the system of control will be those of extreme wealth and/or power. Economic engines need fuel and if we set up a system of desperation, it'll be like a Soul Engine, devouring people like the monopolies of the late 1800s and early 1900s that "owed their soul to the company store"

[WoWGoneBad]

So, I have been keeping up with the Min Wage battle for some time and while there is an 'argument' that workers should be paid a decent wage..... a question is, what skill constitutes a decent wage.

See..... America as a whole(and the world in some areas) have become an entitlement society. I deserve more money because I want to live better. This is a well founded statement and what anyone would want right? So a return questions is, well what skills do you have that deserve the raise you are looking for? And it is <---- question that makes me say that 12 an hour for a call it low sector job is worth. What is a low class job? Any job that does not require training is a trade, or profession is the answer.

When you see people making 12 an hour demanding a pay increase, where do you see them working? You see them at Fast food joints or restaurants, Convenience stores or supermarkets, warehouse jobs, low sector jobs that do not require any marketable skill or training, just a body to fill the slot.

Now you get to Trade jobs, such as Welders, Construction, State service work( Sanitation, and such), HVAC, Mechanics and so on. Marketable Trade jobs that require training and skill to do. Some of these jobs start at around 16-18$ per hour. They are this much because there is proof that there is a desirable skill that is needed to do the job.

Now you get to Professional jobs. Customer Support, IT, Sales, Engineering, Doctors, Lawyers and on up the professional ladder. These jobs require Degree programs that people spent YEARS training and educating themselves to do. These jobs are the somewhat money makers and as you gain additional skills and education you get higher and higher money for your MARKETABLE SKILL and knowledge......

Now lets go back to the low sector jobs where all you need is a body to fill the role. You think that someone who punches or taps nowadays a few buttons or stocks a shelf with product that requires no 'real' training, skill or marketable knowledge deserves to make 15 an hour just because they deserve to live a decent life? NO you dont. You DO NOT AT ALL. These low sector jobs are meant to be STARTING points, a way of getting some cash in your pocket to learn your skill, trade or profession. UNLESS you are looking to be management in these low sector jobs, where training and education are provided for by the employer to 'earn' the title and raise, this is a stepping stone job to something you are supposed to WORK higher for.

I have seen Wal-Mart and other places give starting wages of 13-14 per hour in some locations. You know how much an hour a Entry Level Professional job goes for? Depending on the company and who you are going through..... 12-15 an hour!! 12-15 an hour for a job your spent 2-4 YEARS learning how to do because of the skill and training needed to do the job.

TL;DR You want to make more money for yourself to life better...... then WORK for the Training and Education to GET a job that PAYS that much and more. Cuz guess what, Automated Cashier booths are EVERYWHERE in almost EVERY store... You want your 15 an hour.... Guess what, the company you work for, may just decide to Automate YOU and then guess what then, you are making NO money cuz you are out of a job...... It already happened with the Manufacturing industry and it is only getting bigger. You are NOT needed in the job of a low sector(well farming and agriculture and a few other areas yes)... But you are as easily outsourced to another lower paid employee or even computer......

You get the government to force companies to pay 15 per hour, wait until you want a bottle of Pepsi or Coke, have fun paying 3.50 for it. You want a McDonalds meal..... have fun paying 12.00 for it. You still want that apple pie!!!!! You want to get groceries for your house or family.... have fun paying 250$ a WEEK for em........

You want better living, then tell your government to put caps on the TOP EARNERS of companies. You know the CEOs CFOs COO,s Chairmen of the Board, Executives, everyone who is making 150K + a year and getting Company perks on top of that salary. THAT is where you will see higher wages come down the pipe. But of course that is nothing but a dream.

I am done

[Stormspark]

What I'm saying is that they are not a personal necessity. Reproducing isn't necessary for me to survive/prosper as an individual. If the society wants me to take time out of my life and money out of my pocket for 2 decades (minimum), they have to make it worth my while. No one was able to convince me it was.

And who said they're not having sex? Vsec at age 20 right here.

"But, but, society will eventually crumble in several ways if people don't do this" some might say. My response: What happens to this mudball starting the second after I check out of it is none of my concern. On that day, the rest of you (that are left) are on your own.

I agree...I'm not having kids either. I don't give a flying fuck about what happens to society after I'm gone.

[Hiricine]

The idea that people are calling for a national minimum wage when theres over a 400% difference in cost of living in some places seems silly. I even think its silly when big cities do it, but I can see the merit and the argument to doing it. When you can get a 1 bedroom apartment in some cities for 500$ a month versus thousands of dollars in some of the bigger cities, it makes no sense to have the same minimum wage in both on the grounds of having a "living wage".

[Kellorion]

Its currently 17.70 in Aus, so 18 bucks an hour minimum.

[Semune]

I think we can all agree that the $7.25 (or whatever it is now) minimum wage is absolutely objectively too low.

I think that $15 might be a sweet spot, but the overall economic impact might have to be tested in small cities before expanded across the country. Starter IT jobs are ~$15 an hour currently and require a certification, so would that go up as well? I think most low to low-medium wages would have to rise, which wouldn't be a bad thing.

I feel like an increase to $10 would be a good start, $7.25 just seems like it's basically live-out-of-your-car wage, $10 can get you an apartment and a half decent living in the mid-west.

[RaoBurning]

I already responded to this. He was paying lip service. He asked for $.25 minimum wage, which is equivalent to $4.20 today.

Adjust for inflation, sure. Now, adjust against the radically lower cost of living, then get back to me. I'll do it for you, actually. We'll take your given inflation rate (4.2 / .25 = 16.8), work with some numbers from this guy here, and see what it looks like.

Average cost of a new home in 1938: $3,900. Adjusted: $65,000. You go find me something house, other than a rundown shack behind an Umbrella facility, for that cheap. Or, more usefully, find me a region with average housing that cheap.

Gallon of gas in 1938: $0.10. Adjusted: $1.68. That's closer, I guess, and gas prices vary based on region quite a bit. We all throw a little party 'round here if it dips below $2.00, or $1.90 if the stars line up right.

Average price of a new car in 1938: $763.00. Adjusted: $12,818. Poking around some shows me a few uber cheap cars for an averaged price of $14,303.

Tuition to Harvard in 1938: $420/year (nice). Adjusted: $7,056. Actual: Fucking Christ, over $40,000. On top of a ton of other fees and nonsense.

Healthcare in 1938: This is being a bit trickier to pin down, but given the generally trend of catastrophically increasing costs in the last few decades I'm pretty comfortable saying a whole lot less people when bankrupt in ye olden days than do today. Obligatory John Green, because everyone should remember to be awesome.

Kids? Absolutely a luxury.

"Having children" is the same kind of luxury as "continuing the species." Someone has to pump out the babies to keep things rolling. Though I noticed in a later post that you don't care what happens beyond the tip of your lifespan, so disregard this, I guess, and continue not... continuing the species.

[mittacc]

You think that until you lose your janitors.

Of course the engineer's work is worth more. That doesn't mean the janitors aren't needded, stupid.

Infracted - Flaming

[Goatfish]

Of course the engineer's work is worth more. That doesn't mean the janitors aren't needded, stupid.

Calling me stupid is pretty unnecessary and short sighted. The value of anything is relative based off needs. That engineer is worth nothing without janitors around to keep them functional. Cleaning professions are highly undervalued and underrated. People think nothing of the garbage collectors until they go on strike and you are swimming in your own filth. They might be jobs anyone can do at the base, but with effort anyone of even moderate intelligence can learn to be an engineer or a doctor or a lawyer, or any of those golden professions. Hell, my former sister-in-law is an RN with an IQ sub 100. I'm a lowly retail meat cutter who is in MENSA with 140 IQ.

My point being, there has in the past come times when people spurned by their jobs have decided to stop doing them. The most basic clay of society that people take for granted and believe should not be payed jack shit because they are just "Stepping stone" jobs. When they stop supporting the base of society, society crashes. If we have a shortage of doctors, we'll make it quite a while without too many people being inconvenienced. If our housekeepers in hospitals all stop cleaning, then regardless of how many doctors we have, they become worthless because they no longer have a sanitary environment to treat people.

[Tehshocka]

Calling me stupid is pretty unnecessary and short sighted. The value of anything is relative based off needs. That engineer is worth nothing without janitors around to keep them functional. Cleaning professions are highly undervalued and underrated. People think nothing of the garbage collectors until they go on strike and you are swimming in your own filth. They might be jobs anyone can do at the base, but with effort anyone of even moderate intelligence can learn to be an engineer or a doctor or a lawyer, or any of those golden professions. Hell, my former sister-in-law is an RN with an IQ sub 100. I'm a lowly retail meat cutter who is in MENSA with 140 IQ.

My point being, there has in the past come times when people spurned by their jobs have decided to stop doing them. The most basic clay of society that people take for granted and believe should not be payed jack shit because they are just "Stepping stone" jobs. When they stop supporting the base of society, society crashes. If we have a shortage of doctors, we'll make it quite a while without too many people being inconvenienced. If our housekeepers in hospitals all stop cleaning, then regardless of how many doctors we have, they become worthless because they no longer have a sanitary environment to treat people.

I am having serious doubts about your MENSA 140 IQ if you are suggesting that a shortage of doctors is less impacting on society than a shortage of housekeeping....

Shortage of doctors = people start dying of more simple causes. Not everyone can practice. Long term loss potential.
Shortage of Housekeeping = This is non-skilled labor. Anyone can do it.

Im sorry, you've been on the whole non skilled labor train this entire thread, but you are not going to convince many why you a meat butcher should make the same as an Engineer / Doctor / Scientist / etc.

[kamuimac]

Kids are a necessity in society, unless you think the smart hard working people are going to populate the Earth with all that sex they're not having. Then again when you can grow people in plastic bags, maybe it's not an issue?

that is only partialy true though - what society needs are kids with good strong genes - people who cant provide to themsleves due to laziness / stupidty and are stuck forever in burger flipping type of job dont have genepool that "society" needs

if anything following eugenics , those people should go extinkt for the good of society as whole as they dont bring anything good for future generations.

the only real nessesity for kids is in societies which have build up their pension system basen on old outdated model implemented by Bismarc in the end of 19th century . those indeed "need" kids for their pension system to function.

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That engineer is worth nothing without janitors around to keep them functional.
....
I'm a lowly retail meat cutter who is in MENSA with 140 IQ.

just what has to sit in head of person who claim stuff like this im really curious -

iq 140 ? more like iq 70 at best because those statments are mutualy excluding themselves :/

infracted - minor flaming

[Vash The Stampede]

that is only partialy true though - what society needs are kids with good strong genes - people who cant provide to themsleves due to laziness / stupidty and are stuck forever in burger flipping type of job dont have genepool that "society" needs

Again, when is it their fault when opportunities don't exist for them to get better jobs? You could be a genius working in a Burger joint, and you're only qualification is working in another fast food business.

Also Bill Gates would rather hire a lazy person, as he explained. And this is coming from a guy who bought Dos from a dude that IBM didn't want to deal with directly.

if anything following eugenics , those people should go extinkt for the good of society as whole as they dont bring anything good for future generations.

Remember the Nazi's tried to do this very thing and look how that worked out. Besides being inhumane, we could change genes in the future. Thus making this argument pointless.

just what has to sit in head of person who claim stuff like this im really curious -

iq 140 ? more like iq 70 at best because those statments are mutualy excluding themselves :/

I'm not about to question that IQ, cause it's rather high but there are people with high IQ's who work shit jobs. Most geniuses have issues dealing with people. Generally they're introverts. It also turns out geniuses don't like to work either. They like their free time. So there's smart people who generally don't like dealing with people, and don't like wasting their time with jobs. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Go to penguicon where people are busy hacking together machines using Linux, and you have to wear a button that tells people how you want to interact with them. Gives you an idea how much geniuses like to interact with humans, and you get an idea how much of a challenge it is for them to get a job.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-it-lik...-low-wage-jobs

[mittacc]

Calling me stupid is pretty unnecessary and short sighted. The value of anything is relative based off needs. That engineer is worth nothing without janitors around to keep them functional. Cleaning professions are highly undervalued and underrated. People think nothing of the garbage collectors until they go on strike and you are swimming in your own filth. They might be jobs anyone can do at the base, but with effort anyone of even moderate intelligence can learn to be an engineer or a doctor or a lawyer, or any of those golden professions. Hell, my former sister-in-law is an RN with an IQ sub 100. I'm a lowly retail meat cutter who is in MENSA with 140 IQ.

My point being, there has in the past come times when people spurned by their jobs have decided to stop doing them. The most basic clay of society that people take for granted and believe should not be payed jack shit because they are just "Stepping stone" jobs. When they stop supporting the base of society, society crashes. If we have a shortage of doctors, we'll make it quite a while without too many people being inconvenienced. If our housekeepers in hospitals all stop cleaning, then regardless of how many doctors we have, they become worthless because they no longer have a sanitary environment to treat people.

So your point is that a janitor is as valuable as an engineer? There is this thing called supply and demand which determine value and guess which field has a really good supply and which doesn't. Yes, we need everything (almost). No, everything is not worth the same.

I do happen to be an engineering student at one of the top 50 ranked engineering & technology schools so I should know what it takes to become an engineer. What if I told you that the average student at that level are above the top 2 in most classes in high school and that an average of 1/4 of the students fail each exam? Hell, the minimum grade score was 19.17 (where straigth A:s is 20 and an average of B:s is 17.5) when I got accepted. There are courses where over 60% fail. The average joe does not have the abillity to go through with that if people with those grades are having such problems with it...

I know there are countries where you can buy your diploma and schools that give diplomas which really aren't deserved.

[AlphaOut]

Entry level jobs are entry level jobs. Many of which are done by high school and college students. If you decide to stay in an entry level job and never progress past that, its not societies fault. Its yours. Minimum wage is just what it says. Minimum. The absolute minimum you need for food, shelter, water. Anything outside of "need" is a want or desire. For a number of years I lived off around $15k/yr. Then I did something about it, I make an extremely competitive wage and absolutely love what I do, and the only debt that I have is a mortgage. It isn't hard, it just takes drive and sacrifice; something many people in society seem to not have anymore.

If you don't like it, then do something about it. People are their own worst enemies, always pointing the finger and everything else except in the mirror. I do believe minimum wage should (and generally is) be different based on your areas cost of living. But it shouldn't award you anything beside the minimum means of living, and taking care of yourself (and if your smart with your money, be able to put a bit away every month). I truly feel sorry for people who sit back and complain about their wage, yet do nothing to improve it.

If you aren't willing to sacrifice anything to move up financially, then you aren't ready to make more money. If you don't have the drive to fight for your goals, then you belong in the bottom. It sounds like a terrible thing to say, but it is what it is. If I, as an employer, can replace you in the same day with a 17 year old kid, then how valuable are you to me? Should I increase your wages because you're extremely competitive on the market, or should I keep your wages low because I know I can get any kid off the street to do the same thing? From a business point of view, its a simple answer. I do believe we have an obligation to take care of each other as a society, but that doesn't mean we should give free handouts.