Balance Druid 7.2.5 Patch notes

[Slippykins]

I don't see why this is a problem. Moonkins having the option of not wearing ED is a blessing not a curse. The ED bonus is an illusion. Theorycraft may make it seem like a useful legendary but in practice due to the encounter mechanics, it is worse than Sephuz's Secret.

Disclaimer: I have ED. I still hate using it.

It's a problem because we can't get the 4% damage increase from t19 2pc AND the full DPS from ED, while other classes can.

[beaver1024]

It's a problem because we can't get the 4% damage increase from t19 2pc AND the full DPS from ED, while other classes can.

I'm hoping that moonkins will no longer be balanced around ED because having a single legendary which is extremely situational and only randomly obtainable suffocating single target DPS is retarded in the extreme.

[Slippykins]

I'm hoping that moonkins will no longer be balanced around ED because having a single legendary which is extremely situational and only randomly obtainable suffocating single target DPS is retarded in the extreme.

Unfortunately that wont happen, because that's a large-scale rework of a legendary and we currently have nothing to fill its place as the "ST legendary." So it's either we attempt to make-do with what we have, or we relatively fall behind.

[Polarthief]

Or repeatedly tell them to change/nerf it so we're not hindered by it anymore. Being balanced so horribly around an unintended playstyle is just silly anyways.

Even with it, we're not that great so I don't get it.

Granted there's plenty of other small things that need fixing but they're refusing to acknowledge us like at all so since the small SS buff and the 2p change.

[Bugg]

I think it depends on the fights. I did not yet check ToS fights, I like to experience the 'new' when it comes.
But maybe there will be just a small numbers of fights where we will need ED / Single Target...

For NH we use it where, Crosus and maybe Trilliax?

[Slippykins]

I think it depends on the fights. I did not yet check ToS fights, I like to experience the 'new' when it comes.
But maybe there will be just a small numbers of fights where we will need ED / Single Target...

For NH we use it where, Crosus and maybe Trilliax?

I dunno, I've used ED on Chrono, Trilliax, Krosus, Botanist, Star Augur. 5/10 fights in NH.

Also on Elisande prog to push phases faster.

[wewe]

I hate ED. It punishes people with not so stable latency/precise spell queuing, I mean I drop the buff 1-2 times / encounter due to latency issues (i did have to review video of me playing to figure out that I'm not actually messing up) , don't know how much of a DPS loss it is but it's insanely tilting.
Now i still rather use ED then having to rerun Nighthold in hopes of getting godlike tier TFs.

[Bugg]

@Slippy, yeah me too, but I was trying to fool myself...

As the T20 is shaped now, IMO, ED will be mandatory since it helps us use more SS.
Starsurge and Starfall increase your Haste by 3% for 15 sec: I see no reason to use Starfall as spender, and I see all the reasons that this will be very good for ED. Surgeweaving is Very dependent of haste.
Maintaining the ED buff requires at least 30% haste, the more the smoother/safer it is.

It just becomes more complicated the more I think about it, so I will stop. But we can deviate into the Single Target - Multi target trait spec from here:
Will we want to use a Single target build, since we have ED and 4xT20? Probably....
Will this be enough DPS to make the average raiding moonkin happy? Hard to say, but IMO No.
Will be switch to LaTC/whatever for non-ST fights? T20 will help us generate AP faster, so... maybe?

I think it's a mistake to over-think and over-theorycraft things... Blizzard has shown that it does not... have the same views as many of us, by the way they shaped our Skill/trait tree, set bonuses and legendary items.

Sorry if my opinions are hard to understand, this comes from the fact that English is my second language + I am an engineer IRL so expressing myself is not a primary attribute.

[Argenon]

Also, about ED, there are still some who don't have ED. ED and OI are the two legendaries I still don't have; so there are people like me who have had just terrible luck with legendary drops. Just to tell you a little more about my luck, my first three legendaries were, in order, Ekowraith, Promise, and Cinidaria.

[Bugg]

I think this is an issue that other classes face also? Having 1 strong legendary that fills a Tier-armor slot.
Maybe that's what Blizz wants...

[thedeisel]

Unfortunately that wont happen, because that's a large-scale rework of a legendary and we currently have nothing to fill its place as the "ST legendary." So it's either we attempt to make-do with what we have, or we relatively fall behind.

I'm not sure I follow this reasoning.

Suppose we grant 2T19 + 4T20 Single Target DPS = ED + 4T20 Single Target DPS. Let's call this quantity Moonkin Single Target DPS.

Now let's name another quantity: Median Single Target for 3 Bonus Specs. 3 Bonus specs are those who have single target legendaries that are not in tier slots so can use some combination of their best single target legendary + 2pc bonus from one tier + 4pc bonus from another tier.

Why can't Moonkin Single Target DPS = Median Single Target for 3 Bonus Specs?

What prevents those from being tuned to be equal?

I also doubt that the assumption granted above—that 2pcT19+4pcT20 = ED+4pcT20—is plausible. There's really no worry that ED will lose its single target niche because there's not really good reason to believe that ED is going to be even remotely comparable with 2pc T19 in terms of single target dps. ED benefits more from the T20 4pc than non-ED rotations. ED also benefits more from the increased cap on AP since you can start weaving with a higher pool of AP. ED also benefits from the T20 Crit damage bonus from 2pc T20 more than the baseline rotation because more of your damage comes from Starsurge with ED. ED in T19 was already a bigger increase in single target DPS than 2pc. The gap only stands to grow. As a result, moonkin single target dps will just be tuned around ED anyway. If you have a good titan forge of the 2pc T19, maybe it helps you recover a tiny sliver of that gap. So, there's really no worry that ED disappears as our single target niche legendary.

Just to clarify why I don't find this worry about our dps relative to 3 bonus specs to be a real worry. Some specs have two talent tiers that affect their single target dps. Some have 3. There's no reason to think that 3 talent tier specs will have inherently higher dps than 2 talent tier specs. The 2 talent tier specs just have higher baseline single target damage or gain more damage from each talent tier.

[Myztikrice]

He was saying Blizzard is not going to redesign the legendaries and move them to different item slots, not that Moonkins won't be tuned.

I'm also skeptical of the results when so much of the bonuses and gear seems to support the ED playstyle but it only being a marginal increase

[Tyze]

I bet they will give us "Starsurge deals 15% more damage" just because we'll loose the tier set in ToS.

Also our dots has no effect on our gameplay what so ever outside of AOE (Not speaking of our current tier set which is a terrible design btw)

[Slippykins]

He was saying Blizzard is not going to redesign the legendaries and move them to different item slots, not that Moonkins won't be tuned.

I'm also skeptical of the results when so much of the bonuses and gear seems to support the ED playstyle but it only being a marginal increase

Only a marginal increase because it's compensating for the loss of T19 2pc, in addition to beating OI. It's still 2% above in the best scenario, meaning it really outstrips the other legendaries for ST by ~6%. It's just that IFE/OI get a free 4%.

[SFBayGamer]

Not sure if something changed on simcraft this past iteration or what, but Oneth+IFE is now simming higher for ST than EDC+IFE. Not by much, but definitely better and Oneth+IFE leaves the tier slots open for T19+20 shenanigans.

Although I got Cinidaria, the Belt of David Karradine over the weekend so still in search of the bracer...

not sure if this link works for general public: https://raidbots.com/simbot/report/r199gFoJW

[Polarthief]

Not sure if something changed on simcraft this past iteration or what, but Oneth+IFE is now simming higher for ST than EDC+IFE. Not by much, but definitely better and Oneth+IFE leaves the tier slots open for T19+20 shenanigans.

Although I got Cinidaria, the Belt of David Karradine over the weekend so still in search of the bracer...

not sure if this link works for general public: https://raidbots.com/simbot/report/r199gFoJW

Probably because your Haste is under 20% in the ED sim? ED is pretty garbage comparatively if you don't have 30%+ Haste and Surgeweave.

[Hellshout]

I'm still.hoping to get OI to replace that dreaded ED. Got so happy when I won it, but it only brought me misery.
Recently I used that WA where it shows you what you can cast based on haste. Had @32%, wasn't able to cast SW+LS between surges. I don't have high ms and I didn't fiddle with that latency shit, but wtf is this?
For EF to work I need 150% focus, play right next to Blizz server and also mod my latency somehow to get best results. Not to mention the spamming of surge button(good thing I use AHK, keyboards are expensive)... is this a game or an olympic tryout?

Regarding Blizz ignoring us, maybe we're not the type to whine on forums, but what about a mass mail to the dev suggestion box? Hundreds or thousands of mails with some facts your brainiacs dig up to show them we're playing also?

[Tyze]

I'm still.hoping to get OI to replace that dreaded ED. Got so happy when I won it, but it only brought me misery.
Recently I used that WA where it shows you what you can cast based on haste. Had @32%, wasn't able to cast SW+LS between surges. I don't have high ms and I didn't fiddle with that latency shit, but wtf is this?
For EF to work I need 150% focus, play right next to Blizz server and also mod my latency somehow to get best results. Not to mention the spamming of surge button(good thing I use AHK, keyboards are expensive)... is this a game or an olympic tryout?

Regarding Blizz ignoring us, maybe we're not the type to whine on forums, but what about a mass mail to the dev suggestion box? Hundreds or thousands of mails with some facts your brainiacs dig up to show them we're playing also?

If you have the boots you can use them aswell for ST. I dont like ED either and dont have OI. So I use the boots.

[Hellshout]

If you have the boots you can use them aswell for ST. I dont like ED either and dont have OI. So I use the boots.

Neah, I got ED IFE and Eko. Got greedy and went for a Bear offspec legend - got Oakheart *throws up*. And the last one was by mistake, forgot to change the spec from Feral (was hoping to get a good trinket for Bear dps) and got KJ Wish. At least I got a good trinket for Bear dps

Hoping for boots/OI soonish.

[Tyze]

Neah, I got ED IFE and Eko. Got greedy and went for a Bear offspec legend - got Oakheart *throws up*. And the last one was by mistake, forgot to change the spec from Feral (was hoping to get a good trinket for Bear dps) and got KJ Wish. At least I got a good trinket for Bear dps

Hoping for boots/OI soonish.

Eko is decent for ST aswell.