Legion - Assassination Discussion

[Elyzibeth]

i still use ns in short fight or when i know that the cd return shortly before the end of the encounter
the flexibility to use for envenom and rupture imho is > the potential damage from garrote, even without 4p.
but frankly i still need to do the math to be sure xD

I swapped back to Nightstalker a week or so ago and started focusing on using my vanishes with 5CP envenoms. On open, if you do it right you can just barely squeeze in 4 envenoms in your vanish crit buff with shoulders for some seriously good numbers. I finally got myself back to 3MA relics with boots and COF, I can delay KB or vendetta ever so slightly based on my COF procs and line up every KB/Vendetta now. Pile those together with a vanish and 3-4 envenoms and you get huge dps spikes. I was a big advocate of subterfuge, and come 7.2.5 it will most likely be stronger than anything else unless they majorly shift something in assassin, but for now, with the 4 piece bonus and high mastery, those envenoms are just a powerhouse.

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My 4 envenoms after vanish on Mythic star augur last night.

00:00:10.404 Elyzibeth Envenom Star Augur Etraeus *4409373*

00:00:12.399 Elyzibeth Envenom Star Augur Etraeus *2383770*

00:00:14.430 Elyzibeth Envenom Star Augur Etraeus *2351666*

00:00:16.592 Elyzibeth Envenom Star Augur Etraeus *2351666*

[Aureli]

I like how you keep arguing with nbf on logs is just luck.

Tons of them are without nbf, just because DoS is really not that good.
Tons of them are unlucky with nbf procs.


Poison bomb rng is doing much bigger difference. In my opinion, most of people arguing about DoS being great and nbf overrated are the same people who think you need to be lucky with procs to get lege ranking on logs.



If you are reading this topic and you are trying to learn something new, please keep in mind that most of the posts in this topic is just "feelycrafting" from people who thinks 8percent from DoS is much much more then 2100agi. Suddenly these people with poison bomb luck still can get lege ranking logs and then they think you need tons of luck to be able to log.

[Xanatu]

Frond RNG is kinda like getting 6 buff on outlaw. Yeah it parses higher when it happens, but does that really make it better?

It's not even frond. I have a big foci. The main issue is that the opportunity cost of using draught during the shoulders is too high. It does a ton of damage, but so does your regular rotation, and it does a LOT more when you add in 2500 agi + procs.

Compare two pulls from us fucking up Gul'dan farm:

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...one&target=193

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...4&end=11598211

Added a good bit of DPS just using that, and foci barely even worked. Good bit of that was poison bomb but I really don't think draught is replacement-level.

[RobertoCarlos]

You do need luck to log with assassin though. There's so many people playing it and it's a simple rotation so outside of human error all you have is swings in damage done from blood of the assa and poison bomb procs/trinket procs

[Aureli]

Just by clicking top 10 logs, rank 9 on trilliax

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=43

Where is the luck there? 6% poison bomb, 2.5% nbf

Ofc most of the logs are lucky guys, but you dont need to be lucky to have legendary logs.

If you think assa rot is simple and you never fail on it, then suddenly you are bad and you cant see your mistakes.
Im not saying assa rotation is hard, Im just saying its almost impossible to make 0 mistakes on most mythic fights.

[Deleted]

Where's the luck: 40% critical envenoms when his base is 20, 60% mutilate crits. That's 20 seconds of looking at his armory and the log.

I normally don't rise to it, but there is more to RNG than legendaries, poison bomb and frond.

[Xanatu]

Just by clicking top 10 logs, rank 9 on trilliax

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...done&source=43

Where is the luck there? 6% poison bomb, 2.5% nbf

Ofc most of the logs are lucky guys, but you dont need to be lucky to have legendary logs.

If you think assa rot is simple and you never fail on it, then suddenly you are bad and you cant see your mistakes.
Im not saying assa rotation is hard, Im just saying its almost impossible to make 0 mistakes on most mythic fights.

I don't think 95th % is too luck based (other than the luck of having good legendaries) but 99%+ still relies on good RNG and fast kill times. That's true of most specs in the game with such a large playerbase as assassination.

[Deleted]

I don't think 95th % is too luck based (other than the luck of having good legendaries) but 99%+ still relies on good RNG and fast kill times. That's true of most specs in the game with such a large playerbase as assassination.

Rogue parses are a shambles, forget decent parsing unless u have bis leggys and AMAZING luck, its total pants how it is atm, i hate it, parses dont mean JACK this expansion for the majority of people.

[Won7on]

Where's the luck: 40% critical envenoms when his base is 20

http://www.wowhead.com/item=144236/m...aster-assassin

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I swapped back to Nightstalker a week or so ago and started focusing on using my vanishes with 5CP envenoms. On open, if you do it right you can just barely squeeze in 4 envenoms in your vanish crit buff with shoulders for some seriously good numbers.

I'm 99.9% sure this is not possible. You can't fit 7 globals into 6 seconds barring Eli/Gul'dan speed buff. You just got lucky and crit normally on the last one.

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i still use ns in short fight or when i know that the cd return shortly before the end of the encounter
the flexibility to use for envenom and rupture imho is > the potential damage from garrote, even without 4p.
but frankly i still need to do the math to be sure xD

Well, Garrote is 810% * 1.16 = 939.6%, Envenom is 300% * (1+Mast) * 1.13 * 1.30 = about 1100% assuming 150% Mastery. Obviously, given these numbers a 2.25x multiplier on 1 Garrote will be worth more on paper than a 1.5x on 1 Envenom. Now, an Envenom benefits fully from the 100% crit buff, while Garrote doesn't, but on the opener, most of the Garrote is covered by 12 seconds of 100% crit anyway, which is why I said Subt should actually better on shorter fights.

Pandemic also benefits Garrote since you can get 1.3x duration out of it, but this is where this simple napkin math breaks down since now you might have to delay CDs to line up with Garrote, or do the opposite and let Garrote fall off to line up with CDs.

Edit: Technically there's more to it. Your opening Garrote gets +50% with Nightstalker too. And Envenom is a chance to proc Poison Bomb where Garrote is not... basically this shit is complicated. I've found NS to be simpler and more reliable, however, and I think I'll be sticking with it for now on unless I want to parse with 3x Garrotes on Heroic Botanist.

[MostlyEvilKiwi]

I'm 99.9% sure this is not possible. You can't fit 7 globals into 6 seconds barring Eli/Gul'dan speed buff. You just got lucky and crit normally on the last one.

I get 7 globals during the vanish shoulder buffs all the time, only 6 during the opener though. Here's an extract of my logs from a typical pull:

only 6 during the opener - the buff wants to drop exactly 6 seconds after the first action:

1 00:00:00.358 Kaysuki casts Garrote on Star Augur Etraeus
2 00:00:01.368 Kaysuki casts Mutilate on Star Augur Etraeus
3 00:00:02.374 Kaysuki casts Rupture on Star Augur Etraeus
4 00:00:03.386 Kaysuki casts Mutilate on Star Augur Etraeus
- 00:00:04.277 Kaysuki casts Vendetta on Star Augur Etraeus
5 00:00:04.472 Kaysuki casts Envenom on Star Augur Etraeus
6 00:00:05.467 Kaysuki casts Kingsbane on Star Augur Etraeus
- 00:00:06.368 Kaysuki's Master Assassin's Initiative fades from Kaysuki
7 00:00:06.481 Kaysuki casts Mutilate on Star Augur Etraeus


7 during vanishes:

- 00:00:09.691 Kaysuki casts Vanish
- 00:00:09.691 Kaysuki gains Master Assassin's Initiative from Kaysuki
1 00:00:09.822 Kaysuki casts Envenom on Star Augur Etraeus
2 00:00:10.836 Kaysuki casts Mutilate on Star Augur Etraeus
- 00:00:11.298 Kaysuki casts Arcane Torrent
3 00:00:11.844 Kaysuki casts Envenom on Star Augur Etraeus
4 00:00:12.861 Kaysuki casts Mutilate on Star Augur Etraeus
5 00:00:13.858 Kaysuki casts Envenom on Star Augur Etraeus
6 00:00:14.883 Kaysuki casts Mutilate on Star Augur Etraeus
7 00:00:15.862 Kaysuki casts Envenom on Star Augur Etraeus
- 00:00:16.670 Kaysuki's Master Assassin's Initiative fades from Kaysuki

It's pretty clear that during vanishes the buff isn't just 6 seconds, no idea where that timing is coming from at all, but hey, I'll use it.

[thottstation]

I think I've misunderstood the core mechanic of how Vendetta works.

I always thought while Vendetta is active, I do more damage. That's why I pop Vendetta first, then Kingsbane after (or if Kingsbane has 6 seconds left on cooldown). Then I Envenom, proccing the Surge of Toxins debuff, and THEN using Draught of Souls.

I always thought that if Vendetta/KB/SoT are all up at once, then that would be a good time for Draught because it lasts for 3 seconds, and SoT lasts for 5. Draught would start and finish before SoT ended, and I would still have time to build some combo points before SoT finished.

However, I just got the legendary shoulders, and have been reading the opener thread. Even though 4/5 pages are irrelevant now due to changes, I *think* I've misunderstood how Draught works. Does Draught's damage drop if Vendetta runs out midway through, or can I use it when there's only 1 second left? Does the 1 second mean the whole 3 seconds of Draught is hitting 30% harder, or is my original understanding correct?

In all the personalized Shoulder/Draught Openers timelines, everyone seems to use Draught at the very end. I'm trying to understand why. The shoulders give a 6 second window of 100% crit. Wouldn't that be the best time to use Draught (ie. right after the opener, then after every Vanish)? Seems to me that if I have a 6-second window of 100% crit, my opener should be Garrote, then blow everything: Rupture, Vendetta, Kingsbane, and Draught all in those 6 seconds.

[Cunky]

I think I've misunderstood the core mechanic of how Vendetta works.

I always thought while Vendetta is active, I do more damage. That's why I pop Vendetta first, then Kingsbane after (or if Kingsbane has 6 seconds left on cooldown). Then I Envenom, proccing the Surge of Toxins debuff, and THEN using Draught of Souls.

I always thought that if Vendetta/KB/SoT are all up at once, then that would be a good time for Draught because it lasts for 3 seconds, and SoT lasts for 5. Draught would start and finish before SoT ended, and I would still have time to build some combo points before SoT finished.

However, I just got the legendary shoulders, and have been reading the opener thread. Even though 4/5 pages are irrelevant now due to changes, I *think* I've misunderstood how Draught works. Does Draught's damage drop if Vendetta runs out midway through, or can I use it when there's only 1 second left? Does the 1 second mean the whole 3 seconds of Draught is hitting 30% harder, or is my original understanding correct?

In all the personalized Shoulder/Draught Openers timelines, everyone seems to use Draught at the very end. I'm trying to understand why. The shoulders give a 6 second window of 100% crit. Wouldn't that be the best time to use Draught (ie. right after the opener, then after every Vanish)? Seems to me that if I have a 6-second window of 100% crit, my opener should be Garrote, then blow everything: Rupture, Vendetta, Kingsbane, and Draught all in those 6 seconds.

Vendetta does not affect DoS. You use it at the end of your mantlebuff because you don't want to be energy capped when you use it. If you vendetta b4 vanish and don't use the first 3 seconds to dump energy then your wasting both vendetta and energy. So vendetta kb then vanish envenom mutilate envenom mutilate Dps. This assumes you're using NS.

[honung]

I think I've misunderstood the core mechanic of how Vendetta works.

I always thought while Vendetta is active, I do more damage. That's why I pop Vendetta first, then Kingsbane after (or if Kingsbane has 6 seconds left on cooldown). Then I Envenom, proccing the Surge of Toxins debuff, and THEN using Draught of Souls.

I always thought that if Vendetta/KB/SoT are all up at once, then that would be a good time for Draught because it lasts for 3 seconds, and SoT lasts for 5. Draught would start and finish before SoT ended, and I would still have time to build some combo points before SoT finished.

However, I just got the legendary shoulders, and have been reading the opener thread. Even though 4/5 pages are irrelevant now due to changes, I *think* I've misunderstood how Draught works. Does Draught's damage drop if Vendetta runs out midway through, or can I use it when there's only 1 second left? Does the 1 second mean the whole 3 seconds of Draught is hitting 30% harder, or is my original understanding correct?

In all the personalized Shoulder/Draught Openers timelines, everyone seems to use Draught at the very end. I'm trying to understand why. The shoulders give a 6 second window of 100% crit. Wouldn't that be the best time to use Draught (ie. right after the opener, then after every Vanish)? Seems to me that if I have a 6-second window of 100% crit, my opener should be Garrote, then blow everything: Rupture, Vendetta, Kingsbane, and Draught all in those 6 seconds.

Draught scales with Agonizing Poison (and therefore Surge of Toxins). It does not scale with Vendetta.

[MKV]

Quick question: I have boots, bracers and shoulders as far as legendaries go (also have dos). I know that for example on Elisande, bracers are godlike, but as far as the other fights go which are the best 2 to equip?

[thottstation]

Draught scales with X, not Y.

Ooooooh. So in actual fact, using Draught during Vendetta AT ALL is a waste, because that's time that could have been spent spamming Envenom.

Damn. That's a lot of runs played badly.

[honung]

Ooooooh. So in actual fact, using Draught during Vendetta AT ALL is a waste, because that's time that could have been spent spamming Envenom.

Damn. That's a lot of runs played badly.

Not necessarily. Assassination is limited by Energy rather than the global cooldown. You spend a lot of time just waiting around. Ideally you use DoS when you're out of Energy and have Surge of Toxins up. That way you're not actually losing any Mutilates and Envenoms.

[Won7on]

I get 7 globals during the vanish shoulder buffs all the time, only 6 during the opener though. Here's an extract of my logs from a typical pull:

only 6 during the opener - the buff wants to drop exactly 6 seconds after the first action:

1 00:00:00.358 Kaysuki casts Garrote on Star Augur Etraeus
2 00:00:01.368 Kaysuki casts Mutilate on Star Augur Etraeus
3 00:00:02.374 Kaysuki casts Rupture on Star Augur Etraeus
4 00:00:03.386 Kaysuki casts Mutilate on Star Augur Etraeus
- 00:00:04.277 Kaysuki casts Vendetta on Star Augur Etraeus
5 00:00:04.472 Kaysuki casts Envenom on Star Augur Etraeus
6 00:00:05.467 Kaysuki casts Kingsbane on Star Augur Etraeus
- 00:00:06.368 Kaysuki's Master Assassin's Initiative fades from Kaysuki
7 00:00:06.481 Kaysuki casts Mutilate on Star Augur Etraeus


7 during vanishes:

- 00:00:09.691 Kaysuki casts Vanish
- 00:00:09.691 Kaysuki gains Master Assassin's Initiative from Kaysuki
1 00:00:09.822 Kaysuki casts Envenom on Star Augur Etraeus
2 00:00:10.836 Kaysuki casts Mutilate on Star Augur Etraeus
- 00:00:11.298 Kaysuki casts Arcane Torrent
3 00:00:11.844 Kaysuki casts Envenom on Star Augur Etraeus
4 00:00:12.861 Kaysuki casts Mutilate on Star Augur Etraeus
5 00:00:13.858 Kaysuki casts Envenom on Star Augur Etraeus
6 00:00:14.883 Kaysuki casts Mutilate on Star Augur Etraeus
7 00:00:15.862 Kaysuki casts Envenom on Star Augur Etraeus
- 00:00:16.670 Kaysuki's Master Assassin's Initiative fades from Kaysuki

It's pretty clear that during vanishes the buff isn't just 6 seconds, no idea where that timing is coming from at all, but hey, I'll use it.

The hell, you're right. Checked my logs and apparently with Vanish, the buff lasts ~6.5-7 seconds, allowing for 4 Envenoms. No idea how I never noticed that, that's a game-changer. I'll have to pool energy more carefully before Vanish from now on. (not a BElf)

[pkm]

What is the rule of using ma relics? I have boots, 2 ma currently equipped and a 3rd sitting in bag but that would mean replacing a higher item level relic. Also have a cof.

[Won7on]

No hard and fast rule AFAIK. 3MA is good, but so is 2MA if the 3rd relic is a good trait and item level. Ask for a second opinion, though.

IMO if you have 3MA you hold KB for Vend but with 2MA, that would be too long and you should just use both off CD. That's pure feelycraft though.

[omeomorfismo]

What is the rule of using ma relics? I have boots, 2 ma currently equipped and a 3rd sitting in bag but that would mean replacing a higher item level relic. Also have a cof.

probably at this point is more worth to maximise the uptime of both vendetta and kingsbane. but its basically feelycraft, i should restart to sim hard xD