"Pay to Win"

[Deleted]

The problem is simply defining it as an "advantage", which as I showed can be applied to cosmetics, if you just consider it as a gain, more of something than someone else has.
This is why if anyone is going to make an argument about something being Pay to Win it does need stated explicitly what they define as an advantage, why something else is not, and which is bad and why.
Simply giving later examples and having people chase all over a thread for mismatched or even contradictory "examples" is not helping an argument.

So far there has been this refusal to do that just, putting together a clear definition.
Four words is not that.
"paying for an advantage" is not a definition.
Paying is open to interpretation - paying with what and paying who.
Advantage - what sort of advantage, time, power, greater quantity, etc.

Those are very vague terms.

The player trade and communication mechanics which allow that trade have been there since vanilla, and are by no means unique to WoW.
The argument that the token changed something "fundamental" is simply reliant on dismissing 3rd party trade as being something different than "paying", but it wasn't.
Dismissing it as "cheating" was only tacked on later, but that ws the very trade which prompted blizzard to provide a legitimate alternative.
If it were not for the token, there would be complaints about how unfair it is how some can do it through 3rd parties achieving the same, which arguably isn't even "winning" anyway.

Just to "feel" disadvantaged does not mean that you are disadvantaged. P2W is an measurable process. Every P2W aspect can be broken down to time and stress indicators (this means automatically that something unmeasurable cannot be p2w). P2W can detected through cost-benifit calculation (info: "cost" does not automatically mean money). Through the calculation you can see a: the benifit is positive if you spent money (pay to win), b: it makes no difference if you pay or not or c: the benifit is negative if you pay money (pay to loose). With this method you cannot only see how many time you save overall but also the stress level (amount of time compared with the difficulty of the content). Additional you must bring in the IRL factors as well, because the payment mist also be obtained and this requires also time/stress. P2W is nothing else than exchange available IRL resource for Ingame resources. Time has the same value IRL snd ingame.

[bigbleach]

Just to "feel" disadvantaged does not mean that you are disadvantaged. P2W is an measurable process. Every P2W aspect can be broken down to time and stress indicators (this means automatically that something unmeasurable cannot be p2w). P2W can detected through cost-benifit calculation (info: "cost" does not automatically mean money). Through the calculation you can see a: the benifit is positive if you spent money (pay to win), b: it makes no difference if you pay or not or c: the benifit is negative if you pay money (pay to loose). With this method you cannot only see how many time you save overall but also the stress level (amount of time compared with the difficulty of the content). Additional you must bring in the IRL factors as well, because the payment mist also be obtained and this requires also time/stress. P2W is nothing else than exchange available IRL resource for Ingame resources. Time has the same value IRL snd ingame.

It is too early in the morning for this... What the heck did you just try to say?

[Deleted]

The problem is simply defining it as an "advantage", which as I showed can be applied to cosmetics, if you just consider it as a gain, more of something than someone else has.

Cosmetics, for things that are only available in a shop, are by definition not an advantage since they do not impact game mechanics. If those "cosmetics" do have impact on game mechanics (e.g., it counts against some achievement, or it has some unique ability) then they are pay2win.

[Deleted]

It is too early in the morning for this... What the heck did you just try to say?

TLDR: with calculation you can proof that a game is p2w or not. Numbers dont lie.

[Lizardo221]

First of all, how do we define winning for WOW? 10/10 raider? Arena master? COLLECT EVERY BATTLE PET EVER?? I hope you realize at this point that trying to use the term "win" with an MMO is about as vague as asking how to win at life.

As for gold in WOW, imagine 2 NFL players from opposing teams driving to a game. 1 is driving in a clunker, while the other a sports car. Clunker takes slightly longer to get to the stadium. Who won the game? "Wait, what does driving have to do with -" Exactly! Having more or less gold in games like WOW has no impact on "winning" unless winning is literally who leveled faster.

The only time you pay to win is when you give money and the developers give you something that gives you an advantage in winning that players otherwise wouldn't get through normal, in-game means. So, for WOW, you would have to give money and get like a sword that increases all damage by 50 percent ... But that doesn't exist. You can pay to get to the race faster, but you still have to run the race like the rest of us.

[Lizardo221]

First of all, how do we define winning for WOW? 10/10 raider? Arena master? COLLECT EVERY BATTLE PET EVER?? I hope you realize at this point that trying to use the term "win" with an MMO is about as vague as asking how to win at life.

As for gold in WOW, imagine 2 NFL players from opposing teams driving to a game. 1 is driving in a clunker, while the other a sports car. Clunker takes slightly longer to get to the stadium. Who won the game? "Wait, what does driving have to do with -" Exactly! Having more or less gold in games like WOW has no impact on "winning" unless winning is literally who leveled faster.

The only time you pay to win is when you give money and the developers give you something that gives you an advantage in winning that players otherwise wouldn't get through normal, in-game means. So, for WOW, you would have to give money and get like a sword that increases all damage by 50 percent ... But that doesn't exist. You can pay to get to the race faster, but you still have to run the race like the rest of us.

[Deleted]

First of all, how do we define winning for WOW? 10/10 raider? Arena master? COLLECT EVERY BATTLE PET EVER?? I hope you realize at this point that trying to use the term "win" with an MMO is about as vague as asking how to win at life.

As for gold in WOW, imagine 2 NFL players from opposing teams driving to a game. 1 is driving in a clunker, while the other a sports car. Clunker takes slightly longer to get to the stadium. Who won the game? "Wait, what does driving have to do with -" Exactly! Having more or less gold in games like WOW has no impact on "winning" unless winning is literally who leveled faster.

The only time you pay to win is when you give money and the developers give you something that gives you an advantage in winning that players otherwise wouldn't get through normal, in-game means. So, for WOW, you would have to give money and get like a sword that increases all damage by 50 percent ... But that doesn't exist. You can pay to get to the race faster, but you still have to run the race like the rest of us.

Right, so blizzard could sell all bis gear in the cash shop and it still would not be p2w then...

It is very simple, p2w is paying real money in order to get any sort of an advantage over players that do not pay.

[Deleted]

The only time you pay to win is when you give money and the developers give you something that gives you an advantage in winning that players otherwise wouldn't get through normal, in-game means.

There is no requirement for not being available through in-game means. All other things being equal (e.g., time spent in game, skill) the player than has an advantage is more likely to win. Therefore any advantage you can buy with money is pay2win, regardless of whether it is also available in-game or not.

Lets say there is a pay2win game where you gain an advantage that is not available in the game. By your definition that game would stop being pay2win if there was even a theoretical 0.00000000001% chance of achieving the same advantage if you played 24/7 for a lifetime. That doesn't sound like a meaningful way to define pay2win to me.

[Deleted]

There is no requirement for not being available through in-game means. All other things being equal (e.g., time spent in game, skill) the player than has an advantage is more likely to win. Therefore any advantage you can buy with money is pay2win, regardless of whether it is also available in-game or not.

Lets say there is a pay2win game where you gain an advantage that is not available in the game. By your definition that game would stop being pay2win if there was even a theoretical 0.00000000001% chance of achieving the same advantage if you played 24/7 for a lifetime. That doesn't sound like a meaningful way to define pay2win to me.

well that is how it has been defined for decades.

[Deleted]

well that is how it has been defined for decades.

There is no single definition for pay2win, that's what this whole thread is about. The best definition I know is: "Pay2win is the ability to buy an in-game advantage with real money."

[Deleted]

There is no single definition for pay2win, that's what this whole thread is about. The best definition I know is: "Pay2win is the ability to buy an in-game advantage with real money."

Literally never heard that. that is the most retarded statement ever.

an advantage over whom?
anything you can buy for real money, you can buy with the ingame currency, leading to, that there is no advantage this player would have over you, as you can obtain the same items, without paying for it.

as I have stated previously, if you can obtain items, that you can, buy no means, achieve in the game without paying said money. It would be considered Pay to win.

Otherwise, I'm sure you would consider LoL or heroes of the storm pay to win since you can buy certain heroes? correct?

[ComputerNerd]

Cosmetics, for things that are only available in a shop, are by definition not an advantage since they do not impact game mechanics. If those "cosmetics" do have impact on game mechanics (e.g., it counts against some achievement, or it has some unique ability) then they are pay2win.

They are an "advantage" if you don't clarify that further.
They are something that someone else either has to get in-game or can't.
If you consider more gold an advantage, then more of anything is exactly that unless you specify otherwise right at the start.
Don't tag things on later.

Asking for a clear definition is very fair.
It is very telling when you keep refusing.
If so many parts of it are so obvious, why the difficulty writing it all down.
Because you are lying.

Just to "feel" disadvantaged does not mean that you are disadvantaged. P2W is an measurable process. Every P2W aspect can be broken down to time and stress indicators (this means automatically that something unmeasurable cannot be p2w). P2W can detected through cost-benifit calculation (info: "cost" does not automatically mean money). Through the calculation you can see a: the benifit is positive if you spent money (pay to win), b: it makes no difference if you pay or not or c: the benifit is negative if you pay money (pay to loose). With this method you cannot only see how many time you save overall but also the stress level (amount of time compared with the difficulty of the content). Additional you must bring in the IRL factors as well, because the payment mist also be obtained and this requires also time/stress. P2W is nothing else than exchange available IRL resource for Ingame resources. Time has the same value IRL snd ingame.

If it is "measurable" why are people having so much trouble defining it when asked.

Simply stating it as an "advantage" isn't enough.
If you want to argue something is that, it needs defined properly.
Simple as that.

One split between 8 different posts is not a definition you can argue that something is.
ONE post is.
Go create that, and you will have something actually consistent.

[Deleted]

the amount of stupidity in this forum is crazy
pay to win: pay real money to gain a huge advantage over other people , something that would take effort otherwise
just simple as that, buffling around for no reason all over this post

[Deleted]

the amount of stupidity in this forum is crazy
pay to win: pay real money to gain a huge advantage over other people , something that would take effort otherwise
just simple as that, buffling around for no reason all over this post

pay real money to gain an advantage which is impossible to get without paying said money

[MoanaLisa]

Which, had you read my other contributions on this topic, you'd have noticed I've been doing. It seems everyone is so quick to take the hump with a view that's contrary to their own, that their basic ability to reason has taken the bus. It's a shame; I expected much better from you.

The better was posted here. I presume given your other response that since I disagree with you I'm among the rabid fanboys. Expectations run both ways Avie. You're smarter than to insult everyone who disagrees with you.

[SirCowdog]

Whether you can make gold quicker in game or money in some job and buy the gold, is completely irrelevant. The advantage does not come from you being more efficient at working than making gold, the advantage comes from having more gold than someone who is identical to you in every way except they don't buy for gold.

It is not the run that makes it pay2win, it is the ability to buy gold. Having gold is an advantage. There is no need for a "guarantee", just an advantage, to be pay2win.

Completely, absolutely disagree here.

The entire problem with "Paying to win" is that it supposedly gives players the option to pay real world money to get ahead, or advance more than, other players who are simply playing the game. If spending real money doesn't actually give you an advantage, then I don't see how it qualifies as "P2W" in any way. At that point it's just a term used to describe the process of spending money on the game, and isn't actually connected to "winning" in any way.

I could just as easily buy a special cash-shop-only mount and then say "I'm paying to win!". In fact, that scenario is actually MORE p2w than buying gold, because I actually have something that a person who doesn't pay real money can't get by playing normally.

We're really treading into the realm of esoteric definition vs practicality here.

Buying gear directly from Blizzard shop is not p2w element. IF that gear is better than what is available in the game for free - then it's p2w (not element, the full blown p2w).

I'm actually really curious that you don't include buying gear as P2W, so long as that gear isn't better than what's available in the game. Especially in an MMORPG where progression and acquisition of gear is one of the primary driving forces of the game. So would paying real money for a mythic raid drop be acceptable, and non-P2W by that definition?

And you also said that skipping content isn't P2W either. Are you talking about just teleporting around the map, or something less concrete, like a character boost?

Erm... Yeah, I think so. Funnily enough, buying raid runs isn't something I consider that strong an argument because it's an activity that happens wholly without the WoW token. It's just not a very convincing approach, for me.

But I do think it's fine to have a discussion about what you think is an element, and I'm glad you and I have had a sensible discussion about it. It keeps my faith high that there are, still, some people who can be reasonable on this forum.

Oh, but don't you know, my dear? I am a notorious forum troll who hates and insults everyone who doesn't agree with me about flying! Nyahahah..HA!!!!! /twirls fake mustachios


In all seriousness, the part about raid runs is something that Elim Garak mentioned as well(although he simply mentioned skipping content). But I tend to agree when it's couched in the proper context. Lets say, for the sake of argument, that the Blizzard Cash-Shop(tm) offered an option to trade Gold-Tokens for an in-game item which could be clicked and gave you loot crates full of raid-level gear. Wouldn't that be P2W? We then MUST compare that Crate to the service of a guild providing raid carries for loot.

I think what draws the line for me is that the former is paying Blizzard real money for direct power(raid loot). Where the latter is paying gold to players for power. Where this gets a little hazy is whether or not a person believes that simply being able to buy gold falls into the same definitions. For me the line isn't crossed because players aren't buying power directly from the game itself, but rather from other players.

Keeping in mind that a person is paying $20 for a token to Blizzard, but the gold itself is coming from other players. You're not paying Blizzard to provide you with "winning". Blizzard/WoW is just the broker. You're actually trading another player for THEIR "winning". This, I think, is why Elim Garak calls it RMT, and I'm starting to agree. That gold doesn't just appear from nowhere. Some other player works for it. And I believe this is what MoanaLisa was getting at by talking about it being difficult to define P2W in a cooperative game.

[Elim Garak]

I'm actually really curious that you don't include buying gear as P2W, so long as that gear isn't better than what's available in the game. Especially in an MMORPG where progression and acquisition of gear is one of the primary driving forces of the game. So would paying real money for a mythic raid drop be acceptable, and non-P2W by that definition?

And you also said that skipping content isn't P2W either. Are you talking about just teleporting around the map, or something less concrete, like a character boost?

Unless you pay for something that is way better and otherwise unavailable in the game for free - it is not p2w. The bold part is the unalienable essence of p2w.
Buying with RM something that is available in the game for free - is just RMT. Time skip service. Like character boost (you get gear with it too, and in certain less cost effective cases - professions boost).

Paying RM for mythic raid drop is RMT, if it's offered by Blizzard - it is acceptable, if it's not endorsed by Blizzard it's against TOS and not acceptable. But in both cases it is not P2W.

Skipping content, means everything you can imagine. Skip levels (character boost, xp boosts, etc), skip long travel (in some mmos paying players have no CD/Costs on teleports), skip raid bosses (buy boss loot box in the cash shop). Skip whatever and get to the reward right away. You are just skipping time investment. Not p2w at all.

P2W in its infancy was always about PvP. You pay money you get super gear or super buff and you pwn every scrub in the pvp environment and top the leaderboards where you compete with other paying players, and non-paying players cannot even dream to keep up, because there's no way to get the gear/buff premium players are using other than by paying RM.

Today it spreads in every competitive aspect of games. There is a lot of PvE competition between top raiding guilds, and the moment you add super gear/buffs to cash shop that are only available for money - bam you have p2w and the most paying guild will win.

It can also be present in recruiting. A top guild will most likely recruit a paying player than a non-paying one. Because in p2w environment a paying player is always better than the same skilled non-paying one.

Competition is on all levels. Even within the same guild, the same raid roster. The most paying raider (not just any player, I'm talking about skilled people here) will be the number 1 DPS/HPS/HP in p2w environment.

[SirCowdog]

Unless you pay for something that is way better and otherwise unavailable in the game for free - it is not p2w. The bold part is the unalienable essence of p2w.
Buying with RM something that is available in the game for free - is just RMT. Time skip service. Like character boost (you get gear with it too, and in certain less cost effective cases - professions boost).

Paying RM for mythic raid drop is RMT, if it's offered by Blizzard - it is acceptable, if it's not endorsed by Blizzard it's against TOS and not acceptable. But in both cases it is not P2W.

Skipping content, means everything you can imagine. Skip levels (character boost, xp boosts, etc), skip long travel (in some mmos paying players have no CD/Costs on teleports), skip raid bosses (buy boss loot box in the cash shop). Skip whatever and get to the reward right away. You are just skipping time investment. Not p2w at all.

P2W in its infancy was always about PvP. You pay money you get super gear or super buff and you pwn every scrub in the pvp environment and top the leaderboards where you compete with other paying players, and non-paying players cannot even dream to keep up, because there's no way to get the gear/buff premium players are using other than by paying RM.

Today it spreads in every competitive aspect of games. There is a lot of PvE competition between top raiding guilds, and the moment you add super gear/buffs to cash shop that are only available for money - bam you have p2w and the most paying guild will win.

Hmm...now that you break it down like that, I don't think I can agree with your definition of P2W in the PVE aspects of the game. The entire point of an MMORPG like WoW is to progress your character. The reason why I don't count acquisition of gold to be P2W is because gold itself isn't a guarantee of anything. It's just in-game currency, and buying gold isn't necessarily saving you time, or progressing your character faster than just playing.

But I draw the line at paying Blizzard to skip boss fights, since there is a definite skill and team-coordination check involved, and isn't JUST about time investment.

So what about if Blizzard sold an item to speed up AP or AK gains? You wouldn't consider that P2W? Those are both simple time investments. And yet those directly make your character more powerful.

[Elim Garak]

Hmm...now that you break it down like that, I don't think I can agree with your definition of P2W in the PVE aspects of the game. The entire point of an MMORPG like WoW is to progress your character.

First of all, it's not my definition. It's THE definition.
Secondly, there's no universal point to any MMORPG. Each player decides what the point is for them personally. Skipping the process of progressing is progressing. because progressing is just getting further, farther, better, etc. It's not the process itself. The process itself is gameplay. The end result is progress milestone.

But I draw the line at paying Blizzard to skip boss fights, since there is a definite skill and team-coordination check involved, and isn't JUST about time investment.

It is just time investment. All that fancy stuff about skill and team coordination boils down to a time investment. To get skill in MMO you need time to practice, to improve team coordination - you need time to play with a static team of players so you can become a team.

All it takes is two things: desire and time.

Money can help skip the time if the end goal is gear. Money cannot buy skill (non p2w), but money can replace it (p2w).

If a player just wants the gear and cannot care less about raiding itself, buying it is progressing for them and not p2w (unless it's better, not talking about the same player who doesn't care about raiding, cash shop is available to all)

So what about if Blizzard sold an item to speed up AP or AK gains? You wouldn't consider that P2W? Those are both simple time investments. And yet those directly make your character more powerful.

They don't make you more powerful. There's a cap achievable by anyone. You are confusing a temporary relative power gap due to different speeds of AP acquisition with absolute power gap (p2w).

Temporary power gaps happened, happen and will continue to happen in WoW, because different players play at different paces - with no RMT involved whatsoever.
This is normal.

But Blizzard will not allow that because that goes against the reason for even having AK, WoW is subscription based game and Blizzard's goal is to keep players subscribed for as long as they can, hence: Enter AK. You have to be subscribed to keep up, you don't even need to log into the game that much, just use the mobile app, so people can have a break from wow, but they have to keep the subscription running to have access to AK research, because if you skip some - you get behind until the next catch up patch which you don't know when it's coming.

Selling AK/AP in a cash shop would just end up in players buying it to the max and unsubbing.

But it won't be p2w.

[Deleted]

They are an "advantage" if you don't clarify that further.
They are something that someone else either has to get in-game or can't.

They cannot -- by the definition of the very term "cosmetic" -- be an advantage if they are purely cosmetic and don't impact the game mechanics. Regardless of whether you can get it in-game or not.

Asking for a clear definition is very fair.
It is very telling when you keep refusing.

Not once have I refused, and I'm happy to repeat it as many times as it takes for you to comprehend: "Pay2win is the ability to pay money for an in-game advantage." Clear and simple.

- - - Updated - - -

If spending real money doesn't actually give you an advantage, then I don't see how it qualifies as "P2W" in any way.

I agree. Being pay2win has two criteria: 1) paying real money, 2) getting an in-game advantage. Gold gives you an in-game advantage, hence why tokens make WoW pay2win.

I could just as easily buy a special cash-shop-only mount and then say "I'm paying to win!". In fact, that scenario is actually MORE p2w than buying gold, because I actually have something that a person who doesn't pay real money can't get by playing normally.

You've got it backwards. If it is purely cosmetic, it is not pay2win since it does not give you an advantage through the game mechanics (i.e., the playing field is still level regardless of whether you pay or not). It's just a cosmetic thing that is only available for money. If it was also available in-game, then it quite likely would be pay2win.

- - - Updated - - -

Unless you pay for something that is way better and otherwise unavailable in the game for free - it is not p2w. The bold part is the unalienable essence of p2w.

That is not a meaningful definition. It would mean, for example, that Blizzard could sell full BiS gear and you still wouldn't classify WoW pay2win. As a definition it simply does not work. A much better definition is "the ability to gain an in-game advantage by paying money".