Atm, Illidan is soo cool

[Xirrohon]

He's neither a likable nor a particularly interesting character. Should have stayed dead. I guess Arthas and Maiev/Players cutting off his balls wasn't enough.
But then again it's the fan-service expansion after all. Anything is possible.

Completely agree.

[Zayv]

My favorite Illidan moment in WC history was probably when he killed Maghtheridon in the Black Citadel.

He was feeling godly as the lord of outland, and then Kil'Jaeden arrived and put the fear right into him, I just thought that was such a cool cutscene.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

He is so cool that we are going back in time to kill him all over again, taking his iconic glaives, and keeping them for our own instead of returning them to him when we realize once again we screwed up.

[ravenmoon]

My favorite Illidan moment in WC history was probably when he killed Maghtheridon in the Black Citadel.

He was feeling godly as the lord of outland, and then Kil'Jaeden arrived and put the fear right into him, I just thought that was such a cool cutscene.

That was a cool scene, how do you think the Illidan now would fare against Arthas? I think most people think Arthas would beat Illidan because he did so in WC3. They never factor in character/hero growth, even in the lore, you have people still quoting classic or WC2/3 state of hte world as if it wawere still the case, I guess they forgot to update their knowledge.

[Okacz]

That was a cool scene, how do you think the Illidan now would fare against Arthas? I think most people think Arthas would beat Illidan because he did so in WC3. They never factor in character/hero growth, even in the lore, you have people still quoting classic or WC2/3 state of hte world as if it wawere still the case, I guess they forgot to update their knowledge.

Arthas was really week at the time Illidan clashed with him. He was rapidly losing power because of Lich Kings being weakened, that's why he made the trip to merge with him. After that, he became way more powerful.

Illidan, on the other hand, didn't change much, not in a way the players could see. After his loss he went back to BT, did some anti-Legion work, then died.

If Arthas barely won against Illidan in WC3, he would mop the floor with him now.

[munkeyinorbit]

That was a cool scene, how do you think the Illidan now would fare against Arthas? I think most people think Arthas would beat Illidan because he did so in WC3. They never factor in character/hero growth, even in the lore, you have people still quoting classic or WC2/3 state of hte world as if it wawere still the case, I guess they forgot to update their knowledge.

Arthas smashed him. All Illidan has done since then is die. I'm pretty sure Arthas would smash him again. But I am not an EDGELORD hunter so I may be wrong.

[ravenmoon]

Arthas was really week at the time Illidan clashed with him. He was rapidly losing power because of Lich Kings being weakened, that's why he made the trip to merge with him. After that, he became way more powerful.

Illidan, on the other hand, didn't change much, not in a way the players could see. After his loss he went back to BT, did some anti-Legion work, then died.

If Arthas barely won against Illidan in WC3, he would mop the floor with him now.

hmm.. don't forget Illidan had just absorbed a lot of power from the skull of gul'dan, just fresh off his enhancements, also don't forget since his defeat at the hands of Arthas.. which i remind you was a very close call, he ends his adventurers defeating yet more demons like Magehteridon and capturing their power, not to mention by the time we read about what he was like in Outland in the book Illidan, he has grown enormously in power.

Then after his death at the hand sof the player, Illidan has been gaining power and knowledge in his travels through the twisting nether, I mean he single handedly vaporizes Gul'dan after his return - so I'm not so sure how well Arthas would measure up.

Saying that haven't really seen him do much since his return except single handedyl dispatch the army of demons above the Cathedral of night while we defeated the last boss and put it in place. His help there was instrumental too.

[Morrigenn]

I think most people realize this. The problem is this latest change / retcon kind of goes against how Illidan was established in the first place.

He was unique because he wasn't fighting for the greater good. He fought for what he wanted, and that would happen to align with helping the world at times. What he says, how he acts, and what he does previously doesn't match up with what we're being told now.

I think that's a big reason why many players do not like him right now. His story progression does not feel natural.

Pretty much this. (that and he's SUCH a fucking drama queen every time we see him....yeesh).

I understand lore gets retconned to enable them to move the story forward. It's just harder to swallow when a character is established in one direction and later on suddenly we have to accept "oh, everything you saw before you didn't really understand his motives"... oh well... it ain't Tolstoy after all.....

[Rotted]

He's cock, arrogant and condescending. Personally, I was happy with him being the 'misunderstood villain' but I really think we could of had this expansion without him being resurrected

[Qualia]

Arthas was really week at the time Illidan clashed with him. He was rapidly losing power because of Lich Kings being weakened, that's why he made the trip to merge with him. After that, he became way more powerful.

That's not true. Arthas, before the fight with Illidan, was empowered by Lich King with all power he (LK) could afford. Arthas felt the power he gained was more powerful than anything he had known before (up until that point, of course, so Lich King Arthas would still be more powerful). So no, he wasn't "really weak". In fact, power-wise, he should be closer to Arthas LK than Arthas DK.

On the other hand, Illidan had time to "ingest" power of the Eye of Sargeras. When he was at his peak in "Illidan", Akama and A'dal acknowledged that Illidan's power was unrivaled in Outland, enough to make good of his "Lord of Outland" claim. Akama told Maiev that Illidan has grown a lot more powerful, and that Illidan used magics that wouldn't be possible for anyone less than a god. Akama asides, if even A'dal who are (supposedly) extremely powerful (with his power can destroy cities and level mountains in plural) had to acknowledge it, Illidan shouldn't be the same as he was before. Additionally, even in his greatly weakened state, Illidan still almost destroy the champions that came for him if not for the intervention of Maiev. After he regains his power in Legion, unless Blizzard is going to change it, he will be fighting face-to-face with KJ in ToS with the help of only Velen & Khadgar while we are fighting the Avatar. That doesn't seem like someone who "didn't change much" to me, given how there was clearly a massive gap in power between KJ and Illidan when they met in Outland before.

All in all, I wouldn't be so hasty to conclude that Arthas would win against Illidan - especially current Illidan.

[Lady Dragonheart]

I like him significantly less than I ever had before because of his cocky arrogant attitude. He's no longer the underdog anymore, doing what should be done that no one else would do. He flaunts his "sacrifices" now, as if he doesn't know what the term means... If anything he's a starchild now with Xe'ra's "prophesy" and fangirlism. It was nearly vomit-inducingly sickening to experience (let alone being unskippable ).

Illidan was a much better villain, in my opinion. Or at least being a shady "questionable" ally that would easily "sacrifice" you for his own power for his own agenda. Which is technically still true... Illidan loves subservient minions to do his bidding without question or concern, not heroes that have brains.

[Aliven]

That's not true. Arthas, before the fight with Illidan, was empowered by Lich King with all power he (LK) could afford. Arthas felt the power he gained was more powerful than anything he had known before (up until that point, of course, so Lich King Arthas would still be more powerful). So no, he wasn't "really weak". In fact, power-wise, he should be closer to Arthas LK than Arthas DK.

On the other hand, Illidan had time to "ingest" power of the Eye of Sargeras. When he was at his peak in "Illidan", Akama and A'dal acknowledged that Illidan's power was unrivaled in Outland, enough to make good of his "Lord of Outland" claim. Akama told Maiev that Illidan has grown a lot more powerful, and that Illidan used magics that wouldn't be possible for anyone less than a god. Akama asides, if even A'dal who are (supposedly) extremely powerful (with his power can destroy cities and level mountains in plural) had to acknowledge it, Illidan shouldn't be the same as he was before. Additionally, even in his greatly weakened state, Illidan still almost destroy the champions that came for him if not for the intervention of Maiev. After he regains his power in Legion, unless Blizzard is going to change it, he will be fighting face-to-face with KJ in ToS with the help of only Velen & Khadgar while we are fighting the Avatar. That doesn't seem like someone who "didn't change much" to me, given how there was clearly a massive gap in power between KJ and Illidan when they met in Outland before.

All in all, I wouldn't be so hasty to conclude that Arthas would win against Illidan - especially current Illidan.

Lick King would insta gib him. Illy get rekt by mere death knight (that what arthas was then). He is is no match for LK. Hell most lore characters would insta gib him, inluding malf, tyrande and Khadgar. Illy is drama queen and nothing more. He still didnt show any power.

[Qualia]

Lick King would insta gib him. Illy get rekt by mere death knight (that what arthas was then). He is is no match for LK. Hell most lore characters would insta gib him, inluding malf, tyrande and Khadgar. Illy is drama queen and nothing more. He still didnt show any power.

Clearly show how well you know the lore. Illidan has grown a lot more powerful since TFT when he was defeated by Arthas (in a fight which he was actually having upperhand during most of it, took only one slash on the shoulder before that final decisive strike turned the table on him). While Lich King Arthas was way more powerful than Empowered DK Arthas, I wouldn't say he'd win against Illidan so hastily.

And you must be joking about the "didn't show any power" part. Being more powerful than a being that can level mountains isn't showing any power? Unleashing a spell with the force that can destroy a continent without the Scepter isn't showing any power? Facing Kil'Jaeden directly in a fight together with Velen / Khadgar and being able to hold him off until KJ retreats isn't showing any power? What kind of things will he need to do, then?

[Aliven]

Clearly show how well you know the lore. Illidan has grown a lot more powerful since TFT when he was defeated by Arthas (in a fight which he was actually having upperhand during most of it, took only one slash on the shoulder before that final decisive strike turned the table on him). While Lich King Arthas was way more powerful than Empowered DK Arthas, I wouldn't say he'd win against Illidan so hastily.

And you must be joking about the "didn't show any power" part. Being more powerful than a being that can level mountains isn't showing any power? Unleashing a spell with the force that can destroy a continent without the Scepter isn't showing any power? Facing Kil'Jaeden directly in a fight together with Velen / Khadgar and being able to hold him off until KJ retreats isn't showing any power? What kind of things will he need to do, then?

Maybe he can make ONE plan on his own which actually works? That would be a good start.

Also Arthas was not empowered. His strength simply returned to the previous state as a last dig attempt from Ner'zhul to give him chance to merge with him. He was Arthas, The Death Knight. Nothing more, nothing less. And he sliced illidan chest wide, from one end to the other. So yes, LK would snap his finger nad obliterated Illy. He do that with "the most powerfull fighting force that even lived". His arguably only weakness is Light which illy can not use. At least so far. Because im sure that at the end of the expansion Illy will become space-light infused Kerrigan Jesus.

[Skorpionss]

I think most people realize this. The problem is this latest change / retcon kind of goes against how Illidan was established in the first place.

He was unique because he wasn't fighting for the greater good. He fought for what he wanted, and that would happen to align with helping the world at times. What he says, how he acts, and what he does previously doesn't match up with what we're being told now.

I think that's a big reason why many players do not like him right now. His story progression does not feel natural.

His goal was always to destroy the legion... Ever since WOTA... And the only way he saw of doing that was by becoming stronger than KJ and Sargeras by himself, because he doesn't trust others to do the right thing... Also he's hoping Tyrande will see how badass he is and fall in love with him once he destroys the legion single-handed... Now he realized he can't do it alone(actually back after Warcraft 3) and is getting help from the armies of Azeroth.

I dont' get it where you guys are getting the idea that he's changed... because Xera said that bullshit about him being the chosen one? Who gives a fuck about what she says, let his actions speak for him...

[Qualia]

Maybe he can make ONE plan on his own which actually works? That would be a good start.

Also Arthas was not empowered. His strength simply returned to the previous state as a last dig attempt from Ner'zhul to give him chance to merge with him. He was Arthas, The Death Knight. Nothing more, nothing less. And he sliced illidan chest wide, from one end to the other. So yes, LK would snap his finger nad obliterated Illy. He do that with "the most powerfull fighting force that even lived". His arguably only weakness is Light which illy can not use. At least so far. Because im sure that at the end of the expansion Illy will become space-light infused Kerrigan Jesus.

That was incorrect. Not only was Arthas' power restored, it was empowered even as we can see from "Rise of the Lich King" book:
""<...> Now hurry! I will grant you all the power I can spare."

Coldness suddenly began to seep through Arthas, numbing the angry, raw pain, calming his thoughts. The energy was so vast, so heady…it was more powerful even than what Arthas had known before. This, then, was why he had come. To drink deep of this icy draft, to take the cold strength of the Lich King into himself."

It's true that with the decisive strike, Arthas managed to turn to table and sliced Illidan when the later came to deliver the finishing blow. However, from how it was described in details in "Rise of the Lich King", Illidan was having the upperhand throughout the fight (pushing Arthas back, forced him on the knee, seared him with the fel fire) while only took a gash on his shoulder. In the end, a victory is a victory, but it could have been anyone's fight. And no, Arthas has way more weakness than just the Light - although he might be more vulnerable to it. He isn't immune to simply being overpowered, as Blizzard has confirmed that if Arthas and Lei Shen - both at their peaks - clash in a 1 on 1, Arthas would have lost. Last time I checked, Lei Shen doesn't seem to have any significant Light-related power.

Admittedly, some of Illidan's plans didn't work out and he behaved pretty stupid with communicating with his forces (except the Illidari DH). However, some of his plans actually work - and were the first ones in millennia that delivered a lasting blow against the Legion. Give credit where it's due. Pretty sure the Illidari destroyed at least two Legion's worlds and killed many demons permanently by the time we hadn't even thought of picking a fight with the Legion. They also saved the entire Alliance and Horde from being destroyed at the Dark Portal. Those are things that worked out, and worked out great. If we are to go into the plans, the one that failed since WC3 were all actually foiled by us / the protagonist side (unknowingly, of course). If Malfurion hadn't interfered, the Lich King's threat would have been over in TFT. If we didn't attack him that early in TBC, he and the Illidari DH could have destroyed KJ, or at least dealt a massive blow to Argus and stopped the Legion threat (either permanently or at least for a long time depends on KJ's status). That would have saved many sacrifices in Legion expansion, and many worlds that were destroyed by the Legion between TBC and now.

[Aliven]

That was incorrect. Not only was Arthas' power restored, it was empowered even as we can see from "Rise of the Lich King" book:
""<...> Now hurry! I will grant you all the power I can spare."

Coldness suddenly began to seep through Arthas, numbing the angry, raw pain, calming his thoughts. The energy was so vast, so heady…it was more powerful even than what Arthas had known before. This, then, was why he had come. To drink deep of this icy draft, to take the cold strength of the Lich King into himself."

It's true that with the decisive strike, Arthas managed to turn to table and sliced Illidan when the later came to deliver the finishing blow. However, from how it was described in details in "Rise of the Lich King", Illidan was having the upperhand throughout the fight (pushing Arthas back, forced him on the knee, seared him with the fel fire) while only took a gash on his shoulder. In the end, a victory is a victory, but it could have been anyone's fight. And no, Arthas has way more weakness than just the Light - although he might be more vulnerable to it. He isn't immune to simply being overpowered, as Blizzard has confirmed that if Arthas and Lei Shen - both at their peaks - clash in a 1 on 1, Arthas would have lost. Last time I checked, Lei Shen doesn't seem to have any significant Light-related power.

Admittedly, some of Illidan's plans didn't work out and he behaved pretty stupid with communicating with his forces (except the Illidari DH). However, some of his plans actually work - and were the first ones in millennia that delivered a lasting blow against the Legion. Give credit where it's due. Pretty sure the Illidari destroyed at least two Legion's worlds and killed many demons permanently by the time we hadn't even thought of picking a fight with the Legion. They also saved the entire Alliance and Horde from being destroyed at the Dark Portal. Those are things that worked out, and worked out great. If we are to go into the plans, the one that failed since WC3 were all actually foiled by us / the protagonist side (unknowingly, of course). If Malfurion hadn't interfered, the Lich King's threat would have been over in TFT. If we didn't attack him that early in TBC, he and the Illidari DH could have destroyed KJ, or at least dealt a massive blow to Argus and stopped the Legion threat (either permanently or at least for a long time depends on KJ's status). That would have saved many sacrifices in Legion expansion, and many worlds that were destroyed by the Legion between TBC and now.

Those things you are describing about Illy is after retconn i assume? If yes then it is not really argument because Illidan story is a mess after retconn and he become new Mary Sue. So ofc he is good, briliant and all powerfull. Not mad, power hungry psychopath we used to love. Ofc i dont deny them as arguments. But it is like retconning now that Arthas was always right and do nothing wrong because BIGGER THREAT LOOMING. And how we should feel pity because we were jerks for poor Arti.

Lei Shen was powered with power of Ra'den and power of Aman'thul. At his peak he would propably obliterate anyone below Sargeras level.
Still, LK is far more powerfull than Illidan.

[Qualia]

Those things you are describing about Illy is after retconn i assume? If yes then it is not really argument because Illidan story is a mess after retconn and he become new Mary Sue. So ofc he is good, briliant and all powerfull. Not mad, power hungry psychopath we used to love. Ofc i dont deny them as arguments. But it is like retconning now that Arthas was always right and do nothing wrong because BIGGER THREAT LOOMING. And how we should feel pity because we were jerks for poor Arti.

Lei Shen was powered with power of Ra'den and power of Aman'thul. At his peak he would propably obliterate anyone below Sargeras level.
Still, LK is far more powerfull than Illidan.

I believe that we are discussing current lore, not the one written 10 years ago, though. Why wouldn't it be an argument? Just because you don't like it? I don't think that'd be the case. I mean, if I love the OGs, can I just write off everything in Chronicle in regards to them being pretty much insignificant power-wise to the Titans as "a mess" and keep clinging to Vanilla lore in which C'Thun was able to draw with a random Titan? Or that N'Zoth was able to hide away from the Titans instead of being imprisoned by the Keepers? Obviously not, that'd be stupid. Like the lore or not, canon is canon (and on that matter, Illidan is still power-hungry, he was never mad except during TBC which Blizzard admitted they had to make it so to justify putting him as the final boss - in that line, one can claim that TBC when it was released was just as much of a mess). The question that got me involved which you originally replied to also asked about Illidan *now* compared to Arthas, not the one we thought to be at his full power around 10 years ago. I wouldn't have disagreed if it was a question about Illidan during TFT.

So no, all in all, there is not indication that Lich King is more powerful than current Illidan, much less "far more powerful". When has Lich King leveled mountains or destroyed a continent? When was there any indication that Lich King could face off against KJ with the help of two other similarly powerful beings?

(And no, Lei Shen at his peak wouldn't be able to "obliterate anyone below Sargeras level". He was powerful, but not *that* powerful. He would be more or less on the same level of the Keepers, maybe a bit higher. His power consists of his own power + the portion of the Aman'thul's soul's power + portion of Ra-den's power, while the Keepers have their powers + the portion of the Titans' soul's power inside them. I doubt he would even be on the same level as Kil'Jaeden or Archimonde who has shown to be able to literally rip a planet apart with a single spell. After all, Lei Shen had to spend many days just to defeat a single Xuen)

[Darkeon]

Eh. He seems like one of the writers asked their 5 year old advise for the story. He just seems... all over the place. More than he used to, which is already to say a lot.

[Aucald]

I think my main issue with Illidan in Legion is that he has yet to explain himself or his actions in TBC in light of Xe'ra's many pronouncements about his "destiny" or the implied rightness of his cause. People who have read the "Illidan" novel have a better picture of it, sure; but I would imagine those are in the minority and so his in-game actions have precious little context. What information has been provided has been self-serving and one-sided, and neither Xe'ra nor Illidan seem moved to criticize themselves or to justify Illidan's past actions in Outland. Everyone seems to just have accepted him as another player in the Legionfall campaign without much in the way of due consideration.