Atm, Illidan is soo cool

[Aliven]

I believe that we are discussing current lore, not the one written 10 years ago, though. Why wouldn't it be an argument? Just because you don't like it? I don't think that'd be the case. I mean, if I love the OGs, can I just write off everything in Chronicle in regards to them being pretty much insignificant power-wise to the Titans as "a mess" and keep clinging to Vanilla lore in which C'Thun was able to draw with a random Titan? Or that N'Zoth was able to hide away from the Titans instead of being imprisoned by the Keepers? Obviously not, that'd be stupid. Like the lore or not, canon is canon (and on that matter, Illidan is still power-hungry, he was never mad except during TBC which Blizzard admitted they had to make it so to justify putting him as the final boss - in that line, one can claim that TBC when it was released was just as much of a mess). The question that got me involved which you originally replied to also asked about Illidan *now* compared to Arthas, not the one we thought to be at his full power around 10 years ago. I wouldn't have disagreed if it was a question about Illidan during TFT.

So no, all in all, there is not indication that Lich King is more powerful than current Illidan, much less "far more powerful". When has Lich King leveled mountains or destroyed a continent? When was there any indication that Lich King could face off against KJ with the help of two other similarly powerful beings?

(And no, Lei Shen at his peak wouldn't be able to "obliterate anyone below Sargeras level". He was powerful, but not *that* powerful. He would be more or less on the same level of the Keepers, maybe a bit higher. His power consists of his own power + the portion of the Aman'thul's soul's power + portion of Ra-den's power, while the Keepers have their powers + the portion of the Titans' soul's power inside them. I doubt he would even be on the same level as Kil'Jaeden or Archimonde who has shown to be able to literally rip a planet apart with a single spell. After all, Lei Shen had to spend many days just to defeat a single Xuen)

Lei Shen got full power of Ra and full power of Aman'thul - at least according to his story. He only died because Tol'virs used recalibrated Forge to wipe out all life near his current position. He was unmatched. So yes, he would beat LK 1 vs 1. He was also not succumbed to the curse of flesh so many LK attacks would simply not harm him.

[Qualia]

Lei Shen got full power of Ra and full power of Aman'thul - at least according to his story. He only died because Tol'virs used recalibrated Forge to wipe out all life near his current position. He was unmatched. So yes, he would beat LK 1 vs 1. He was also not succumbed to the curse of flesh so many LK attacks would simply not harm him.

That's incorrect again. I'm not sure what "his story" you are referring to, but Lei Shen never got full power of Aman'thul as per Chronicle. If he had, nothing on Azeroth - including the Forge - would have been able to kill him. Ra, like all other Keepers, only gained a portion of the Titans' power after the Pantheon's souls entered them ("They knew they had been gifted with a portion of the Pantheon's power, but they were unaware that the last remnants of their beloved makers had been infused in their very bodies"). The only difference between Ra and other Keepers was that he extracted that lingering power of Aman'thul out instead of keeping it inside him ("He extracted the lingering power of Aman'thul from himself and carefully stored it in a mountain vault near what would become known as the Vale of Eternal Blossoms. There, the highkeeper hoped to preserve what little was left of his beloved titan creator").

Even without those quote, it shouldn't even be hard to figure that out, really. The Pantheons' powers allowed them to effortlessly scraps planets in a few moments. Lei Shen had to spend many days to defeat a single Wild God (Xuen). If he gained the full power of Aman'thul, he could have just ripped Xuen apart in a single attack. In fact, while his power was equal to Ra, Lei Shen couldn't even match the Highkeeper in mastery over storm and elements. He is clearly nowhere near having full power of Aman'thul. I'm not sure what curse of flesh has to do with LK's attacks here. None of Lich King's personal attacks requires his opponent to be fleshy being. Being made of stone doesn't mean he'd be immune to being slashed, blasted by a wave of shadow / frost energy, or being frozen in ice.

All in all, Lei Shen was really powerful. That is undeniable. However, he was far from as powerful as you thought. He only appeared so because he lived in an era which there wasn't any powerful being going against him.

[Krazzorx]

Tbh, he's not getting a ton of screen time ATM. He's just sort of... there. 7.2 feels more like a Velen patch than anything. It's Velen vs Kil'jaedan.

[lazypeon100]

His goal was always to destroy the legion... Ever since WOTA... And the only way he saw of doing that was by becoming stronger than KJ and Sargeras by himself, because he doesn't trust others to do the right thing... Also he's hoping Tyrande will see how badass he is and fall in love with him once he destroys the legion single-handed... Now he realized he can't do it alone(actually back after Warcraft 3) and is getting help from the armies of Azeroth.

I dont' get it where you guys are getting the idea that he's changed... because Xera said that bullshit about him being the chosen one? Who gives a fuck about what she says, let his actions speak for him...

His actions didn't match up with what was shown to the players or how he acted however. Also people care about what Xe'ra says because she is unfortunately canon.

In warcraft 3 and onward, we are shown this bad ass demon hunter. He doesn't like the legion, but we know he is out for personal power. How he obtains it is questionable at best. The dude worked on Kil'jaeden, was willing to try and tear all of northrend apart to stop the scourage, etc. He always went too far which made him a cool villain. He was willing to let many innocents die for what? More power? That was something he was always after, even back during WoTA.

You can agree with why he wanted that power but the white washing being done to his character, his lack of an explanation for his own actions, etc, rubs people the wrong way. Blizzard wants him to be a good guy instead of an antihero? That's fine, but have him answer for his previous crimes in some manner. Or keep him morally questionable still with how he handles the legion now. He no longer feels like an anti villain, and his redemption feels half assed which ultimately doesn't feel like we are doing his character justice if he's to transtion into being a hero.

[trm90]

Tbh, he's not getting a ton of screen time ATM. He's just sort of... there. 7.2 feels more like a Velen patch than anything. It's Velen vs Kil'jaedan.

Exactly -- Velen is the real deal, I think he's just less marketable since he only appeared in BC as opposed to the original WC series, and he doesn't look anywhere near as edgy.

But yeah, a dude who has been fighting the BL for millennia - the same BL that turned his brothers and civilisation against him, and forced him to flee to two different planets - has an equally large bone (or even bigger) to pick than Illidan. Velen may not be the most interesting character either, but he does have a distinct personality that works.

[JustRob]

Exactly -- Velen is the real deal, I think he's just less marketable since he only appeared in BC as opposed to the original WC series, and he doesn't look anywhere near as edgy.

But yeah, a dude who has been fighting the BL for millennia - the same BL that turned his brothers and civilisation against him, and forced him to flee to two different planets - has an equally large bone (or even bigger) to pick than Illidan. Velen may not be the most interesting character either, but he does have a distinct personality that works.

Velen has been fighting the Legion for millennia? Wut? He's been hiding for millennia you mean. He attempted to run from the Legion at every turn and even suggested they abandon Azeroth instead of fighting. He's a coward, now he suddenly wants to fight? Forget it old man.

[Skorpionss]

His actions didn't match up with what was shown to the players or how he acted however. Also people care about what Xe'ra says because she is unfortunately canon.

In warcraft 3 and onward, we are shown this bad ass demon hunter. He doesn't like the legion, but we know he is out for personal power. How he obtains it is questionable at best. The dude worked on Kil'jaeden, was willing to try and tear all of northrend apart to stop the scourage, etc. He always went too far which made him a cool villain. He was willing to let many innocents die for what? More power? That was something he was always after, even back during WoTA.

You can agree with why he wanted that power but the white washing being done to his character, his lack of an explanation for his own actions, etc, rubs people the wrong way. Blizzard wants him to be a good guy instead of an antihero? That's fine, but have him answer for his previous crimes in some manner. Or keep him morally questionable still with how he handles the legion now. He no longer feels like an anti villain, and his redemption feels half assed which ultimately doesn't feel like we are doing his character justice if he's to transtion into being a hero.

How did he not answer for his own actions? We fucking killed the dude... he was imprisoned for 10.000 years and exiled to outlands... what the fuck more can he do to answer for his actions?

[lazypeon100]

How did he not answer for his own actions? We fucking killed the dude... he was imprisoned for 10.000 years and exiled to outlands... what the fuck more can he do to answer for his actions?

Imprisonment happens before any of the events in WoW. As for us killing him, I'll shoot back so what? He's alive again and we are supposed to act like everything is fine. We are told that we were wrong to kill him and that we were the ones at fault for killing him because he has always been great but we do not see that.

Why should I be expected to think things are okay or that he had atoned or done anything worth following him for? He enslaves multiple races on a mostly destroyed world, lets his forces actively take actions that make shit there even worse, is working with demons openly, and he does nothing to even try to say "hey, maybe I was wrong to do those things." He dies, comes back, and seemingly learns nothing. He doesn't acknowledge what happened even, it makes his story in BC feel inconsequential which is awful feeling.

The way blizzard has written his character right now, not only does his death feel completely meaningless but we are also made out to be the badguys. How dare I stop a dude literally working with demons, enslaving people, and peddeling demonblood onto orcs again.

[Dartz1979]

maybe illidan will finally get tyrande this time that is if she is still into men... she sure did show emotions in the val'shara storyline chapters not gonna reveal spoilers cause i dont know how to add tags.

[JustRob]

Imprisonment happens before any of the events in WoW. As for us killing him, I'll shoot back so what? He's alive again and we are supposed to act like everything is fine. We are told that we were wrong to kill him and that we were the ones at fault for killing him because he has always been great but we do not see that.

Why should I be expected to think things are okay or that he had atoned or done anything worth following him for? He enslaves multiple races on a mostly destroyed world, lets his forces actively take actions that make shit there even worse, is working with demons openly, and he does nothing to even try to say "hey, maybe I was wrong to do those things." He dies, comes back, and seemingly learns nothing. He doesn't acknowledge what happened even, it makes his story in BC feel inconsequential which is awful feeling.

The way blizzard has written his character right now, not only does his death feel completely meaningless but we are also made out to be the badguys. How dare I stop a dude literally working with demons, enslaving people, and peddeling demonblood onto orcs again.

He never enslaved anyone in Outland. The Naga and the Broken were already working with him. He "enslaved" them later because Akama was overly paranoid and tried to overthrow him based on false suspicions. The fel orcs were already fel orcs, far gone. He just took them over when he killed Magtheridon. And pretty much all of those orcs took the blood willingly. Any demons he's "working with" are bound to his will and not part of the Burning Legion. And the attacks on Shattrath and Tempest Keep were plots by Kael'thas, who acted without Illidan's consent.

The reason the Burning Legion opened the Dark Portal and led us to Outland was so that we would mistakenly see Illidan as the bad guy and kill him, thus removing a huge threat to the Legion. His actions were completely misunderstood and his death unjustified. Why should he apologize? He was this close to dealing a deathblow to the Legion before we came in and had to be the heroes. It was all a combination of our misunderstanding, Akama's paranoia, and Maiev's lust for vengeance regardless of what the facts were.

[Astalnar]

Illidan is just a 2edgy4me tryhard who Blizzard is making into the ultimate savior. He's just Kerrigan.

I'd much rather he be dead with the shit story BC had for him rather than this mess we have now.

Heh, I remember the days when cultural reference would be Jesus Christ. And people say there is no such thing as the golden age.

As for Illidan, I'd prefer if he stayed dead instead of them trying to make sense of the screwups from BC now in order to explain all away, and making us blundering fools in the process.

[lazypeon100]

He never enslaved anyone in Outland. The Naga and the Broken were already working with him. He "enslaved" them later because Akama was overly paranoid and tried to overthrow him based on false suspicions. The fel orcs were already fel orcs, far gone. He just took them over when he killed Magtheridon. And pretty much all of those orcs took the blood willingly. Any demons he's "working with" are bound to his will and not part of the Burning Legion. And the attacks on Shattrath and Tempest Keep were plots by Kael'thas, who acted without Illidan's consent.

The reason the Burning Legion opened the Dark Portal and led us to Outland was so that we would mistakenly see Illidan as the bad guy and kill him, thus removing a huge threat to the Legion. His actions were completely misunderstood and his death unjustified. Why should he apologize? He was this close to dealing a deathblow to the Legion before we came in and had to be the heroes. It was all a combination of our misunderstanding, Akama's paranoia, and Maiev's lust for vengeance regardless of what the facts were.

So A'dal was wrong at the time too? How come Illidan couldn't come forward and explain his actions, and avoid that fiaso entirely? Send a messenger or something?

Anyway, my original point was that I disagree with the direction his character has taken. I think explaining and excusing his actions was a bad choice on blizzard's part because Illidan doesn't come across as the anti hero people loved him for. You're welcome to disagree, but I'm not sure what exactly about that is confusing to people.

[JustRob]

So A'dal was wrong at the time too? How come Illidan couldn't come forward and explain his actions, and avoid that fiaso entirely? Send a messenger or something?

Anyway, my original point was that I disagree with the direction his character has taken. I think explaining and excusing his actions was a bad choice on blizzard's part because Illidan doesn't come across as the anti hero people loved him for. You're welcome to disagree, but I'm not sure what exactly about that is confusing to people.

It may have been in the Illidan novel somewhere, but it's been a while since I read so I'm not sure.

What confuses me is how you can be satisfied with the ending Illidan got back in TBC. The last time we saw him he was just an anti-hero, but TBC made him into some kind of monster we had to kill because reasons. It didn't do his character justice at all, and very little explanation was given as to why he was suddenly completely evil. They made a grave mistake there and I'm glad they corrected it. Yes it took some doing, yes you may not agree with the way they explained it, but they had to make it work somehow. Illidan was too great a character to piss away like that. And the end result is what matters.

[lazypeon100]

It may have been in the Illidan novel somewhere, but it's been a while since I read so I'm not sure.

What confuses me is how you can be satisfied with the ending Illidan got back in TBC. The last time we saw him he was just an anti-hero, but TBC made him into some kind of monster we had to kill because reasons. It didn't do his character justice at all, and very little explanation was given as to why he was suddenly completely evil. They made a grave mistake there and I'm glad they corrected it. Yes it took some doing, yes you may not agree with the way they explained it, but they had to make it work somehow. Illidan was too great a character to piss away like that. And the end result is what matters.

Oh don't get me wrong, I don't hate Illidan so much and I disagree with the treatment he got in BC. I have never argued that I thought he got a good ending in BC. What I am saying though is the current direction he is going in right now, at least to me, isn't helping to fix his character. It is only making things worse. I'd have rather he stayed dead than the current arc right now.

[Qualia]

Imprisonment happens before any of the events in WoW. As for us killing him, I'll shoot back so what? He's alive again and we are supposed to act like everything is fine. We are told that we were wrong to kill him and that we were the ones at fault for killing him because he has always been great but we do not see that.

Why should I be expected to think things are okay or that he had atoned or done anything worth following him for? He enslaves multiple races on a mostly destroyed world, lets his forces actively take actions that make shit there even worse, is working with demons openly, and he does nothing to even try to say "hey, maybe I was wrong to do those things." He dies, comes back, and seemingly learns nothing. He doesn't acknowledge what happened even, it makes his story in BC feel inconsequential which is awful feeling.

In Illidan's case, I'd say that having his grand plan to kill Kil'Jaeden (one that he was working on for a long time) foiled by us, getting killed and then imprisoned (both body and soul) for years was an answer. Whether it's enough or not is up to debate, but saying that he hasn't answered for his actions during TBC events isn't entirely correct. Just because he can come back from death doesn't mean death is meaningless to him.

Additionally, another thing we need to take into account is that none of his direct victims is taking an important part in our force currently. Enslaving some Brokens? Sure, that's bad, but we don't have any Broken among the Horde / Alliance's leaders now. A'dal was cool with it (or at least, didn't have a big issue when Maiev approached him) and Velen has his utmost faith in the Naarus (one of them - the Prime one - is telling us to trust Illidan). Kidnapping Orcs and creating the Fel Horde? That doesn't seem righteous, true, but are Outland Orc currently part of the Alliance / Horde? No, they aren't. At best, the Mag'har Orc was just an ally to the Orc on Azeroth, but their interactions so far, especially in this war against the Legion, seem pretty minimal. Thrall or Garrosh might have some issues due to their direct connections to the Mag'har, but alas, one isn't actively leading now while the other is dead.

In the end, that means it's up to us to questions his actions. Yet, do we really want to? Illidan, similar to Odyn in a way, is having the same goal as us now. He is powerful, and currently an ally. Do we really want to arguing with an ally in middle of a very important war? Probably not, that can be saved to when we no longer have any enemy to fight against. In the same line of thought, we don't see Illidan complaining that we ruined his plan to kill KJ often either.

Lastly, now we know that Illidan was doing all he did in TBC to fight the Legion and not just for his own gains only. It brings up one question that can apply to multiple cases in Legion - does the end justify the mean, and to what extent would it be? So far, the message seems to be "yes, it can, as long as the result doesn't affect us negatively". It doesn't sounds too righteous because of the later part but it's rather realistic, and it has been the case in Legion so far. Illidan asides, we also allied with Odyn - not because he is a beacon of righteousness, but because he is powerful and he is against the Legion. We also asked Odyn to enslave Ymiron to serve us / the Battlelord in the war. Sylvanas strike a bargain with Helya (who tried to rig her trials to imprison our souls in Helheim and later had a bargain with Gul'dan as well). The DH leader enslaved Akama *again* in their campaign. The DK went on a killing spree / corpse stealing trip on allies. The list goes on and on. Were any of those actions questioned by the Azeroth army at large? No, or not yet, at least. That's who we are - not champions of justice, we are just an army trying to protect ourselves here.

(Although, Xe'ra didn't complain that we killed Illidan. She complained that we did it with hatred in our heart and let it corrupted our mind. That's why she even "complained" against the one who never killed Illidan. I take it as a Zen kind of thing, "Thou shalt not fight with hatred" or so)

[Skorpionss]

Even if Xe'ra is right, and he becomes the Chosen one, it doesn't mean his methods won't be questionable, he doesn't suddenly become a paragon of good and righteousness... As a character he still seems the same so far, judging from his dialogue and interactions with other characters (albeit not that many so far).

[ravenmoon]

His actions didn't match up with what was shown to the players or how he acted however. Also people care about what Xe'ra says because she is unfortunately canon.

In warcraft 3 and onward, we are shown this bad ass demon hunter. He doesn't like the legion, but we know he is out for personal power. How he obtains it is questionable at best. The dude worked on Kil'jaeden, was willing to try and tear all of northrend apart to stop the scourage, etc. He always went too far which made him a cool villain. He was willing to let many innocents die for what? More power? That was something he was always after, even back during WoTA.

You can agree with why he wanted that power but the white washing being done to his character, his lack of an explanation for his own actions, etc, rubs people the wrong way. Blizzard wants him to be a good guy instead of an antihero? That's fine, but have him answer for his previous crimes in some manner. Or keep him morally questionable still with how he handles the legion now. He no longer feels like an anti villain, and his redemption feels half assed which ultimately doesn't feel like we are doing his character justice if he's to transtion into being a hero.

but thtey didn't show you everything about Illidan, he remained mysterious to a lot of people because they only saw a little of him.. most haven't read WotA, most haven't played WC3, most haven't read Illidan the novel, when you do, youunderstand Illidan very well, he makes sense, you have no problems with Xe'ra etiehr, and you actually like the fella, and you see that he hwas always been really good guy, not a soft guy, but he's haeart has been in the right place even though he's done some bad things.

He's paid for his errors too, and much of what happened to him was unfair too, this was always the case. You need to see all the sources about Illidan not just cherry pick the ones you want or only one of htem which will only show you some of the picture.

And tha'ts the issue with much of the confusion in lore, people don't see the whole thing. Xe'ra was there way of boiling it down into a nutshelll and painting it clear what they wanted to show you in WotA/Wc3 RoC/TFT, TBC, Illidan the novel. I have read and gone through all of those. And I have no problems with Illidan's character.

[pateuvasiliu]

Exactly -- Velen is the real deal, I think he's just less marketable since he only appeared in BC as opposed to the original WC series, and he doesn't look anywhere near as edgy.

But yeah, a dude who has been fighting the BL for millennia - the same BL that turned his brothers and civilisation against him, and forced him to flee to two different planets - has an equally large bone (or even bigger) to pick than Illidan. Velen may not be the most interesting character either, but he does have a distinct personality that works.

If by running for 10,000 years you mean fighting then yes, Velen is a veteran of fighting the Legion.

Illidan fucking nuked their planet and found a way to Argus.

He's lightyears ahead of anyone else.

- - - Updated - - -

Even if Xe'ra is right, and he becomes the Chosen one, it doesn't mean his methods won't be questionable, he doesn't suddenly become a paragon of good and righteousness... As a character he still seems the same so far, judging from his dialogue and interactions with other characters (albeit not that many so far).

That's what I hope, that Illidan rejects the path of holiness and tranquility and beats the Legion, but through his own anti-hero ways.

[lazypeon100]

but thtey didn't show you everything about Illidan, he remained mysterious to a lot of people because they only saw a little of him.. most haven't read WotA, most haven't played WC3, most haven't read Illidan the novel, when you do, youunderstand Illidan very well, he makes sense, you have no problems with Xe'ra etiehr, and you actually like the fella, and you see that he hwas always been really good guy, not a soft guy, but he's haeart has been in the right place even though he's done some bad things.

He's paid for his errors too, and much of what happened to him was unfair too, this was always the case. You need to see all the sources about Illidan not just cherry pick the ones you want or only one of htem which will only show you some of the picture.

And tha'ts the issue with much of the confusion in lore, people don't see the whole thing. Xe'ra was there way of boiling it down into a nutshelll and painting it clear what they wanted to show you in WotA/Wc3 RoC/TFT, TBC, Illidan the novel. I have read and gone through all of those. And I have no problems with Illidan's character.

I actually did play warcraft 3. Let me be clear, he was an ass. He wasn't nice. Hell, whether he had his heart in the right place was debatable for a long time. He clearly cared for Tyrande.

Please don't say I haven't kept up with the lore when I have played WC3. I read WoTa (though to be fair that was a long while ago). We can in fact read and see the same material and come to different conclusions.

[ravenmoon]

I actually did play warcraft 3. Let me be clear, he was an ass. He wasn't nice. Hell, whether he had his heart in the right place was debatable for a long time. He clearly cared for Tyrande.

Please don't say I haven't kept up with the lore when I have played WC3. I read WoTa (though to be fair that was a long while ago). We can in fact read and see the same material and come to different conclusions.

fair enough, that's quite true - read it WotA again and Illidan, you'd be very surprised how very consistent they are with the what they are showing you through Xe'ra and describing in legion. and play through WC3 again or watch it - i did which is why i'm strongly in support of blizz on this one - they've just made very clear what was a little hidden but had hints too in all the previous material.