Alliance vs Horde leaders/important lore figures

[Dellis0991]

Malfurion and Thrall are suppose to be top dogs in power but this expansion both are helpless puppies....why blizz?...why?!

[Ghazar]

It's difficult to differentiate power levels based on the abilities the various faction leaders have displayed in the lore. From memory here are some of the more glaring inconsistencies I can think of:

Thrall: Summons boulders, bridges of earth, and crushes Garrosh with a fist of followed by a lobotomizing lightning blast. Also loses control of the Doomhammer and got wrecked at the Broken Shore.

Jaina: Takes down a Scourge Necropolis with a single fireball in one of the WotLK tie-in comics. Unable to do much to Thalen Songweaver with an Arcane Blast.

Malfurion: Able to control any and all aspects of nature, including practically erasing Varo'then from existence by exhorting Kalimdor to turn against him. Easily trapped by Maiev in "Wolfheart" and only freed by Jarod Shadowsong's intervention.

Sylvanas: Dark Ranger, Banshee Queen, peerless archer, and practically a Necromancer in her own right. Killed by a single bullet fired by Godfrey.

Tyrande: Millennia-old High Priestess of Elune, quintessential sentinel and veteran of countless wars and conflicts across Kalimdor. Goes to pieces when Malfurion is taken by Xavius and almost unable to do anything without the aid of the PC.

I'm sure there are plenty of other examples, as well. Power levels are just one of those things that aren't easy to compare and contrast, as it varies wildly depending on context, storyline, and whoever is actually telling the story.

Sadly that's very true, although I think we can agree on some things by looking at the majority of situations that hopefully overshadow the inconsistencies. Also, in-game situations are often altered by the player's story or engine limitations.
Malfurion is almost always mentioned as OP as far as I know, and I can only imagine full-power Thrall standing a chance, or maybe if Sylvannas used a cursed arrow that Malfurion fails to avoid/heal. Velen in game is shown as kinda ok, but from what I understand in lore he is insanely powerful and I can't see anybody being able to do anything to him without the element of surprise, which makes those two in a league of their own.
As for the others you could say that they are evenly matched, as they are all highly skilled, with horde's warriors being a bit physically stronger, but alliance's ranged consist of a bit more magic which, lore-wise, should probably be more dominant. (No doubt we could imagine countless scenarios where either side would end up victorious)

[Better]

Sadly that's very true, although I think we can agree on some things by looking at the majority of situations that hopefully overshadow the inconsistencies. Also, in-game situations are often altered by the player's story or engine limitations.
Malfurion is almost always mentioned as OP as far as I know, and I can only imagine full-power Thrall standing a chance, or maybe if Sylvannas used a cursed arrow that Malfurion fails to avoid/heal. Velen in game is shown as kinda ok, but from what I understand in lore he is insanely powerful and I can't see anybody being able to do anything to him without the element of surprise, which makes those two in a league of their own.
As for the others you could say that they are evenly matched, as they are all highly skilled, with horde's warriors being a bit physically stronger, but alliance's ranged consist of a bit more magic which, lore-wise, should probably be more dominant. (No doubt we could imagine countless scenarios where either side would end up victorious)

Malfurion lore-wise was taken down by, what he even admitted was, a shadow of Xavius' power. It's actually one of the things I despise about that dungeon. Malfurion is talking so much shit to Xavius, despite being his captive. Additionally Khadgar was called an alliance character in the OP despite being possibly the most neutral character in the story at this point.

Side note: Velen's a bad priest. He literally auto attacks for much more damage than he smites for, and can't aim a heal to save his life. (Tank artifact challenge)

[Ghazar]

Additionally Khadgar was called an alliance character in the OP despite being possibly the most neutral character in the story at this point.

I called him an alliance character because in an all out war between the two, he'd go with alliance, as he has in the first and second war, now he's neutral because he cares for the bigger picture. Same could be said for Thrall, Hamuul and Malfurion, even Tyrande in Legion, but that's only because allies and hordies are in war because of pvp. That doesn't take away his neutrality the way things are currently, but he is still a member of the alliance, not the horde.

[Better]

I called him an alliance character because in an all out war between the two, he'd go with alliance, as he has in the first and second war, now he's neutral because he cares for the bigger picture. Same could be said for Thrall, Hamuul and Malfurion, even Tyrande in Legion, but that's only because allies and hordies are in war because of pvp. That doesn't take away his neutrality the way things are currently, but he is still a member of the alliance, not the horde.

I'm not so sure. I think in an all out war, with his ties to Dalaran, he'd stay neutral and try to keep the Kirin Tor out of it. He doesn't seem to care about the two factions at all, and would rather look at what's best for all of Azeroth. But he also doesn't seem to think the same way Wrathion does, where one side should absolutely crush the other to be stronger going forward.

[Dartz1979]

'

She also has Banshee powers

Sylvanas is skilled at archery, an art she mastered as a high elf. To this day the bow remains Sylvanas's weapon of choice.[47]
The Banshee Queen is aptly named. Her screams have the power to silence and weaken her enemies, or bolster the power of her allies.[48]
Sylvanas is adept at demon magic — having the ability to drain life, create skeletons, and use mind control.[49]
Although Sylvanas has reclaimed her undead high elven body, she still retains the ability to shift in and out of her incorporeal banshee form at will.[47][50][51]
Through her pact with the val'kyr, Sylvanas has power over life and death.[14] At the time of the Cataclysm events in Silverpine Forest, she could only raise humans into undeath, but her powers could always grow down the line.[52] During the Siege of Orgrimmar, Sylvanas offered to raise Lor'themar's blood elf troops. During Garrosh's trial in War Crimes, she planned to raise Vereesa as a Forsaken.
Sylvanas can telepathically communicate by making her voice "invade" the thoughts of another person.[53]

Her voice is so powerful that walls started shaking when she raised her voice.

Also her body is described as nearly indestructible.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Sylvanas_Wi...Lore_abilities


As for Tyrande, her powers seem to be on a coin flip, some times shes just crumples.



Jainas pretty weak actually without the focusing iris.

quite true but she will always be my wow waifu :-)

[Radaney]

Alliance has the most powerful lore figures.

Tyrande, Malfurion, Velen are some of the most powerful characters in the entire series.

Alliance also have Jaina and technically Khadgar and Maeiv? Although Kirin Tor and the Wardens are neutral now?



The only Horde characters of note in power are Thrall if he still counts as Horde and Sylvanas, Lor'themar is probably a potent mage as well.


Magic tends to top Warriors in power lore-wise and Alliance have more magic users.

Horde need some more leaders of note, they're all significantly underdeveloped compared to any of the Alliance leaders.

But Blizzard cba with that so, they didn't even give the Trolls or Orcs a new leader that's how much they don't give a shit.

[Aquamonkey]

I know its canon cause it was in a book (or short story? cant remember), but... Does it even make sense from any point of view? Still no idea why they wanted to show Jaina, one of the most powerful mages on Azeroth, as a weak ass mage-thingy... This is one the the very few things that, because of not making any sense, I wouldnt consider canon and a metric of power even if its written into lore.

Also I wouldnt dismiss her with saying 'she is strong because of the artifacts she has' cause thats they are meant to do - improve your magical power. Same as a better sword gives you more fighting capabilities, artifacts grant you more power. Would you call us, the players, weak only because we use artifacts in legion?

Jaina is the most powerful human woman mage. Turns out that isn't very high standing. It wasn't just against Thalen. Tides of War also put her as rather pitiful in power compared to Thrall.

Jaina was a powerful mage, but she shouldn’t have been strong enough to stand against him
--Tides of War

She also uses an arcane blast against Thrall, this time with the power of the Focusing Iris. It's more effective than the one she used on Thalen... but even then, it only knocked the wind out of Thrall despite Jaina intending it to kill him.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Alliance has the most powerful lore figures.

Tyrande, Malfurion, Velen are some of the most powerful characters in the entire series.

Alliance also have Jaina and technically Khadgar and Maeiv? Although Kirin Tor and the Wardens are neutral now?



The only Horde characters of note in power are Thrall if he still counts as Horde and Sylvanas, Lor'themar is probably a potent mage as well.


Magic tends to top Warriors in power lore-wise and Alliance have more magic users.

Horde need some more leaders of note, they're all significantly underdeveloped compared to any of the Alliance leaders.

But Blizzard cba with that so, they didn't even give the Trolls or Orcs a new leader that's how much they don't give a shit.

Lorthemar is a spell breaker / ranger. Not a mage. Rommath is the mage and very formidable.

[TickTickTick]

Jaina is the most powerful human woman mage. Turns out that isn't very high standing. It wasn't just against Thalen. Tides of War also put her as rather pitiful in power compared to Thrall.

Jaina was a powerful mage, but she shouldn’t have been strong enough to stand against him
--Tides of War

She also uses an arcane blast against Thrall, this time with the power of the Focusing Iris. It's more effective than the one she used on Thalen... but even then, it only knocked the wind out of Thrall despite Jaina intending it to kill him.

Just out of curiousity... Is it possible that Tides of War and Theramore story were written by the same person (or maybe its even the same thing)? I can see a pattern here...

I just dont like what they are doing to Jaina since 5.0

[Friendlyimmolation]

Just out of curiousity... Is it possible that Tides of War and Theramore story were written by the same person (or maybe its even the same thing)? I can see a pattern here...

I just dont like what they are doing to Jaina since 5.0

I take it as Christie Golden doing the exact opposite of Knaak, where he overpowers the fuck out of his characters "rhonin his fiery red fiery awesome hair, let loose a fireball that killed 60000 demons and was almost as red as his hair. also he was very attractive, and he has a elf wife"

Golden has flaws of her own, but in my opinion, her portrayal of powerful characters becoming humbled or coming across someone who can survive their or even laugh at them attacks makes them seem more real than simply a rpg hero on steroids crushing everything near them.

[Aquamonkey]

Just out of curiousity... Is it possible that Tides of War and Theramore story were written by the same person (or maybe its even the same thing)? I can see a pattern here...

I just dont like what they are doing to Jaina since 5.0

Tides of War was written in conjunction with Theramore scenario. The intent was that the scenario would follow what is portrayed in the novel and even have a nod to the player characters being there. The Alliance version of the scenario deviated because Blizzard found the original scenario wasn't very compelling gameplay-wise.

[TickTickTick]

Golden has flaws of her own, but in my opinion, her portrayal of powerful characters becoming humbled or coming across someone who can survive their or even laugh at them attacks makes them seem more real than simply a rpg hero on steroids crushing everything near them.

Well, it doesnt seem too real when a powerful mage can barely scratch a random noname bloodelf with her most powerful spell...

Tides of War was written in conjunction with Theramore scenario. The intent was that the scenario would follow what is portrayed in the novel and even have a nod to the player characters being there. The Alliance version of the scenario deviated because Blizzard found the original scenario wasn't very compelling gameplay-wise.

It just seems realy strange that up to MoP they illustrated Jaina as one of the most powerful mages in Azeroth alive at the moment, then suddenly taking a 180 and making her weak and flawed anytime they can... but its kind of offtopic here.

[Aucald]

It just seems realy strange that up to MoP they illustrated Jaina as one of the most powerful mages in Azeroth alive at the moment, then suddenly taking a 180 and making her weak and flawed anytime they can... but its kind of offtopic here.

Fantasy stories in general, and World of Warcraft in specific, are often subject to the push and pull of the twin forces of New Powers as the Plot Demands and the Worf Effect. The former being when a character is granted extraordinary powers or abilities purely as a storytelling device or element, and the latter is when the strongest or most power exemplar of a category is suddenly depicted as weak to legitimize the threat of another villain or the hero. Jaina just so happens to have benefited and suffered from both effects in her career in the story, although she's hardly alone on that score.

[TickTickTick]

Fantasy stories in general, and World of Warcraft in specific, are often subject to the push and pull of the twin forces of New Powers as the Plot Demands and the Worf Effect. The former being when a character is granted extraordinary powers or abilities purely as a storytelling device or element, and the latter is when the strongest or most power exemplar of a category is suddenly depicted as weak to legitimize the threat of another villain or the hero. Jaina just so happens to have benefited and suffered from both effects in her career in the story, although she's hardly alone on that score.

Cant wait to see Jaina kill Khadgar with a simple ice lance and becoming a villain, end boss of a tier or something. It all leads to that, Jaina disconnecting herself more and more from the rest, Khadgar being stronger and stronger from one patch to another... would be fitting to how you described it.

IMO we should rank the individuals by the highest power they had in their lifetime. Like Thrall, at the moment devastated by what happened on the Broken Shore, but we still see him as the most powerful shaman there ever was, and one of the most powerful mortals at the moment. Jaina having a problem with a blood elf from Theramore story doesnt change the fact, that she IS a powerful mage, one of the most powerful.

[Tripzzz]

A magical shot to the head, from behind, in close range, when the opponent is unaware and unable to defend itself, could kill anybody on the Alliance or Horde, possibly even most demons, undead and elementals. That's hardly a weakness.

That's like saying: "Varian isn't so touch! He would die if you decapitate his head while sleeping!"

That is a weakness. Sure all other leaders have the same weakness but that doesn't mean it isn't a weakness. You said Slyvanus is suppose to be "unstoppable" but she got rekt by one bullet. Sneaking up on enemies isn't impossible. Genn snuck up on Slyvanus in Stormheim. He just wasn't smart enough to bring a gun.

[Friendlyimmolation]

That is a weakness. Sure all other leaders have the same weakness but that doesn't mean it isn't a weakness. You said Slyvanus is suppose to be "unstoppable" but she got rekt by one bullet. Sneaking up on enemies isn't impossible. Genn snuck up on Slyvanus in Stormheim. He just wasn't smart enough to bring a gun.

Also aiming a gun from one hand while hanging from a ceiling. Not really the pinnacle of accuracy.

[Tripzzz]

Also aiming a gun from one hand while hanging from a ceiling. Not really the pinnacle of accuracy.

Slyvanus was standing in one spot. Not hard to hit a stationary target.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Slyvanus was standing in one spot. Not hard to hit a stationary target.

Ever been to one of those old gun conventions? The gun he sometimes uses wouldn't be accurate either way.

Hes always going to have more luck with his claws.

[Wildmoon]

Gelbin has mech. He wins.